Talk:Wayland the Smith

Swords
"Caliburn, in Mary Stewart's Arthurian Legend, is the sword of Macsen, Merlin, and Arther." Well, yes: but does Mary Stewart ever say that Caliburn was forged by Wayland? Does anyone? If so, please provide a citation! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.17.129 (talk) 18:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

From a redirect
from Wayland Smith, which now redirects to Weyland:
 * "He was the son of a sailor and a mermaid and is King of the Elves. He has two brothers. One is named Egil, also a smith.


 * In France he is known as Gallans, in Germany as Wieland, and in Norse Legend as Volund or Volundr."

Moved here because I can't verify most of it&mdash;specifically, the part about his family and his French name (Google is no help, and there are no links to Gallans). &#8212;No-One Jones 21:59, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Similar names
The_Master_and_Margarita has a character with a noticeably similiar name. Any connection?

the character Waylon Smithers, from the animated TV show "The Simpsons", may be named in reference to Weyland Smithy or the "Fables" character of a similar name.

Article title
So far as I can see, the current title, "Wayland Smith" isn't attested by either reference, and isn't the most common name, in general. Wouldn't either Wayland the Smith or simply Wayland be more logical? Alai 03:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I did some googling before I requested it be moved. Wayland Smith appears to be a well-attested name, and IMHO it is both common and unambiguous. However, I'd personally prefer just Wayland.--Berig 16:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But neither reference, so there's a total disjunct between the title, and the contents of the article. Your google search includes hits like this on the first page, and other such variations.  I certainly don't think it's the most common term, raw google results aside.  I'd have no objection to Wayland or Weyland (one redirects here, one is a disambig, just to confuse matters).  Alai 05:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Cognate with Vulcan?
A quick google adds some credence to my impression that Vulcan and Weyland are cognate and culturally equivalent. Is this a common belief, or just what the eccentrics are saying? If I knew better I'd edit a section in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steewi (talk • contribs) 03:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Being held captive and flying away on a bird has a whiff of Daedalus about it nej? 62.196.17.197 (talk) 13:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Weland/Völundr/Vulcan are certainly plausible cognates, especially the first part of the name. If the Germanic name was originally something like *Wôlhund it would be even more transparent. Regarding Daedalus, it does seem that he rather than Hephaistos is the closest Greek equivalent. As Hephaistos came from Lemnos (which spoke a language like Etruscan) he surely isn't an Indo-European god, Daedalus may have been the original native Greek smith-god. Walshie79 (talk) 16:43, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Having investigated it further, I'd also like to offer the possibility that Welund is derived from the Indo-European *Welunos/Werunos (see The king and the god). I had originally thought this unlikely because of the difference between Varuna, Ouranos (sky gods) and Welund the smith god, but then I found out that Ilmarinen (who is very similar to Welund) is cognate with a sky god in another Uralic language. So there could have been a development in northern Europe that turned the sky gods into smiths: whether it began in Finnish/Saami or Germanic is debatable. The Norse tale of Volundr being a Finn however would fit nicely with him (originally Welunos) having absorbed elements of Ilmarinen. Walshie79 (talk) 22:29, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

"Wayland's assistant is Flibbertigibbet"
I've never heard that before and there's no citation. In the Flibbertigibbet article, the same assertion appears, citing... this article! Should Wikipedia really be citing itself for something it's got no external reference for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.37.81 (talk) 17:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. I'll add the fact template to both articles and it should be removed if no source can be found.  A supernatural meaning certainly existed around 1600 (e.g. in A Declaration of Egregious Popish Impostures 1603, & King Lear), but that's quite a distance from Anglo-Saxon mythology.  Indeed Wiktionary call this a Middle English word, first attested in 1450. I get the impression there are no detailed English sources on Wayland either, so it would be surprising if they listed a sidekick. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 16:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Rape?
I don't agree with the references to Weyland's rape of Bodvild. The texts seem to suggest that she was seduced, not raped. There are references to them as "lovers" and their "lust" which do not imply rape to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.91.104 (talk) 17:45, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

This happens a lot in myth studies, people seem almost eager to make things more dark and questionable. Nut it does not help that there are multiple versions and that some mythologies like greek were pretty rape filled. That all said I thought they got together willingly as well. 65.183.214.150 (talk)


 * Also, be aware that, certainly under Roman law raptio - kidnapping or abduction (from which we derive "rape" - hence "the rape of the lock" or references to the Argonauts "raping" the golden fleece ... Mythic Greeks weren't that weird) was often assumed to include sexual assault (see history of rape) but didn't have to. Historically an elopement might well have been considered raptio as might ritual "bride kidnapping" by someone unfamiliar with the concept. 62.196.17.197 (talk) 12:34, 17 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Just another way to portray Germans as "evil". Has this been fixed yet?2601:806:4301:C100:5CC9:7D44:20AB:AF35 (talk) 16:36, 29 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah, can we ban the rape troll? I tried to edit it and it was revered several times. 2601:806:4301:C100:5CA7:743D:3495:5115 (talk) 00:10, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not a "troll," nor I am in any way trying to portray Germans as "evil" (unless, for some bizarre reason, you consider Wayland representative of all Germans). In the actual story, Wayland drugs Bödvild and rapes her. I am not making this up. Here is a quotation from the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on the subject: "Wayland was captured by the Swedish king Nídud (Nithad, or Níduth), lamed to prevent his escape, and forced to work in the king’s smithy. In revenge, he killed Nídud’s two young sons and made drinking bowls from their skulls, which he sent to their father. He also raped their sister, Bödvild, when she brought a gold ring to be mended, and then he escaped by magical flight through the air." It that is not enough to convince you, here is a quotation from John Osborne's translation of the Old English Deor poem, describing Bödvild's grief:
 * "To Beadohilde, her brothers' death was not
 * so painful to her heart as her own problem
 * which she had readily perceived
 * that she was pregnant; nor could she ever
 * foresee without fear how things would turn out.
 * That went by, so can this." --Katolophyromai (talk) 01:55, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed - without knowing the original texts, this is certainly how scholarship normally deals with the incident (shown for example on the Franks Casket). Are some people misled by versions tidied up for children's books, perhaps? Johnbod (talk) 12:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Your suggestion sounds essentially spot-on, though I would amend it to state that the sanitized retellings are probably intended for adults rather than for children, since even the sanitized version would not usually be considered child-appropriate, what with all Wayland murdering Bödvild's brothers, carving their skulls into goblets and delivering them to her father. Since children's books usually eliminate all references to sex, I doubt that the part about Wayland "seducing" Bödvild would be deemed appropriate for a children's book either. --Katolophyromai (talk) 15:54, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Wieland is an important German cultural figure. Intentionally attacking this story is certainly racist. Being pregnant is not indicative of being raped. The story in question revolves around Wieland winning a request by the king to destroy his enemies and win his daughter's hand as reward. As someone pointed out, it would be strange that a rape victim and rapist would be called "lovers" and that they "lusted" for each other. Rape was a very serious offense in Germanic societies. As opposed to cultures like Rome, rape could be OK, depending on who was raped. The Germans did not tolerate it at all. There have been several articles in wikipedia that falsely tried to add homosexuality to many historical German figures as well. Many, I have successfully fixed (without trollish reverting). You need the original texts? I have quite an extensive collection of original prints, re-prints, and digital editions of Germanic literature. If you want me to present forensic evidence for the case of Wieland, I can. For now, since it is admitted that those here are ignorant of the original text, the article should simply mention the pregnancy, but not how it came about. What edition are those EB's you are reading, by the way? 2601:806:4301:C100:A9A8:7FC4:5448:32B7 (talk) 14:16, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Let's be clear. A simple google search shows that rape is the standard scholarly classification of the incident, and always has been. There are no doubt variant versions of the myth, and perhaps arguments that some texts are ambiguous etc, but we do not need original research here. If there are good scholarly sources discussing the question, then by all means add something on them and the discussion, but it is clear that clearing Wayland's name on this has aq long way to go. Johnbod (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I have already provided a link to the | online Encyclopedia Britannica article, which is the one that I have quoted from above. Your assertion that rape was considered in serious offense in Germanic societies, but not in Roman society, lacks a reference and is irrelevant to this discussion; whether or not the ancient Germanic peoples considered rape to be immoral has nothing to do with whether or not Wayland raped Bödvild in this particular story. The ancient Germanics no doubt considered murder to be immoral, and yet they clearly had no qualms about portraying Wayland as having murdered Bödvild's brothers. As far as I am concerned, this dispute has already long been settled. Your argument that saying that Wayland raped Bödvild is somehow "racist" is patently ridiculous. Wayland is a mythical figure and he does not represent all Germans. In any case, die Vorstellung, dass ich rassistisch zu Deutschen bin, ist irrwitzig, weil fast alle meine Mutters Familie von deutsche Abstammung sind. Das macht mich mindestens teilweise deutsch. By the way, presenting "forensic evidence" would be very difficult in this case, since the term "forensic evidence" strictly refers to evidence gathered from a crime scene that is used to identify a criminal, which is not what this discussion is about. --Katolophyromai (talk) 16:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed. And as far as the Anglo-Saxons were concerned (Germanic and fans of Wayland) the rape and enslavement of female prisoners (unless very high-ranking) seems to have been absolutely normal and routine. Also the Norsemen. How nice to hear that Continental Germans were better behaved! Johnbod (talk) 19:50, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * You two are clearly biased trolls. Your actions can get you permanently banned from wikipedia. You cannot just make stuff up. Also, everyone know that the EB online is garbage. It's nearly as bad as wikipedia. Further, the page you are referencing, DOES NOT EXIST! 2601:806:4301:C100:9962:F409:8C2E:C173 (talk) 03:22, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not making stuff up. Your bald assertion, on the other hand, that "everyone know [sic] that the EB online is garbage" seems to be entirely made-up, since, as far as I am aware, you are the only person who thinks this. I would also like to apologize for your difficulties accessing the Encyclopedia Britannica article; the page I am referencing does exist and I have already provided two links to it. The first link works perfectly, but my second link is, unfortunately, broken for some reason. Here is a third link, just in case you were unable to find the first one: --Katolophyromai (talk) 16:31, 15 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The article is 2 PARAGRAPHS long. Trash. I am not a professional and can write pages on the topic. Funny how the article on the woman in question, Böðvildr, mentions that she was a happy Wife and mother of the hero Wudga . I guess you guys need to get over to that article and vandalise it as well! Oh, and putting (sic) after a typo just shows what a troll you really are. Keep ruining wikipedia, guys! 2601:806:4301:C100:715E:F0D4:544A:F17B (talk) 17:26, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Putting sic in brackets after a grammatical error in a quotation is the formally agreed-upon method in standard English of indicating that the error was present in the original quoted text and is not a transcription error on the part of the copyist. It in no way indicates that the person quoting the text is a "troll." --Katolophyromai (talk) 03:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I am a professor of Linguistics and did not encounter this, until I encountered you. 2601:806:4301:C100:82D:4490:4B01:86BC (talk) 18:39, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

To add to the rape agenda. Old Norse, Thidrekssaga, Þiðreks saga, clearly says "seduced". Does this not meet wikilaw standards? Maybe there is a difference in some of the old text. But the fact remains that there are stories that mention her as an honoured, loved wife. Not a rape victim.

https://ppk.home.xs4all.nl/nibelung/sum.htm#VI

2601:806:4301:C100:3D03:652C:8417:1ECB (talk) 21:12, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Interesting. the article Niðhad ALSO says "seduced". Böðvildr mentions she was a happy wife and mother of the hero Viðga .2601:806:4301:C100:3D03:652C:8417:1ECB (talk) 21:32, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

In Modern Fiction
The reference to cartoon character Waylon Smithers is pure speculation. This character has a wiki page, where it is referenced that the name Waylon came from the puppeteer Wayland Flowers. There is no evidence offered for any link between Wayland the Smith and the cartoon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wayo231 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've removed the reference to the Weyland-Yutani Company from the Alien franchise, as there wasn't any explanation for any sort of connection. Iapetus (talk) 15:29, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * There may be, even if only speculation. It was like some super-engineering company, right? Sounds similar to the smith.73.220.34.167 (talk) 08:26, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Schwanhilde?
Where did the story on here go about falling in love with, and rescuing Schwanhilde?73.220.34.167 (talk) 08:27, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

This one. Copied from here:

"Swanhilde is the daughter of a marriage between a mortal woman and a fairy king, who forbids his wife to ask about his origins; on her asking him he vanishes. Swanhilde and her sisters are however able to fly as swans. But wounded by a spear, Swanhilde falls to earth and is rescued by the master-craftsman Wieland, and marries him, putting aside her wings and her magic ring of power. Wieland's enemies, the Neidings, under Princess Bathilde, steal the ring, kidnap Swanhilde and destroy Wieland's home. When Wieland searches for Swanhilde, they entrap and cripple him. However he fashions wings for himself and escapes with Swanhilde as the house of the Neidings is destroyed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:558:6012:5A:565:ABEA:FCDE:5BBD (talk) 22:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

"Finn" does not mean "Finnish"
In old Scandinavian texts "Finn" refers mainly to Sámi (outdated form: "Lapp") rather than Finnish people. The term finnakonung is generally translated as "Sámi king", not "Finnish king". The literature tends to refer to Sámi chieftains/leaders as "Finn Kings", such as Svåse father of Snefrid in the stories of Harald Fairhair.

On a side note, it is interesting to consider Völundrs status as one of three sons of a "Finn king" in relation to the traditional Norwegian connection between smithy labor and Sámi ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.19.208 (talk) 09:13, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Regarding this and the recent edit, is there a source for this? I'm not doubting the claim's veracity, it would just be nice to have it supported somehow.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There is not. The Lapps have never been known to be smiths. They make everything from deer. They do no metal work at all. This is silly. As for "Finn". It does refer to the Lapps. But not in this case. Wieland's reference to being a Finn simply meant he was magical, as the Lapps have been perceived for generations. Alpharts Tod (talk) 16:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Check out the etymology section on the wiki page for the county of Finnmark, Sami people or Finns. The Norwegian and Swedish wiki pages on Volund both describe him as sami. The Norwegian lexicon "Store Norske Leksikon" also has an article on the matter: https://snl.no/finner_-_samer. The strongest english language source I have found is probably in this paper by Else Mundal at the University of Bergen: http://rp-www.arts.usyd.edu.au/medieval/saga/pdf/346-mundal.pdf 84.209.154.143 (talk) 18:04, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Etymology
I'm not seeing any etymological information that supports Rosenfeld's "Wela-nandaz" as meaning "battle brave."

George T. Gillespie in, I believe, 'A Catalogue of Persons Named in Germanic Heroic Literature' suggests the name derives instead from the proto-germanic verb *welan/* Wilą -which pertains to crafting.


 * Wilą + *-ndz would therefore mean "The crafting one" and seems more appropriate Gundahariggs (talk) 14:44, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The reconstruction *Wēlandaz does not add up either. *Wilan + *-ndz would not yield a long ē in the first syllable. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 14:15, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Related to Daedalus?
Encountering this for the first time, but does anyone know if there's a relation between Wayland and Daedalus? The stories seem similar (minus Icarus). Econtheory (talk) 02:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Possibly. The similarity was discovered already in the Middle Ages, and the Icelanders considered them equivalents. Note that there are similarities between the myths of Indo-European speaking peoples from India to Ireland, and similarities may go back to common myths that are maybe 5000 years old, see Proto-Indo-European mythology.--Berig (talk) 06:15, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 9 December 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 13:26, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Wayland the Smith → Wayland (folklore) – The current title seems rather odd to me. In any primary source I've read on him he is just referred to by his name without "the Smith" added. Modern scholarship also seems to overwhelmingly go with just his name such as Wayland, Weland, Volund and so on. In my opinion, this page title should match common use in modern scholarship and primary sources rather than a title which seems not to have a great foundation. Ingwina (talk) 09:46, 9 December 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose still commonname In ictu oculi (talk) 13:32, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Common name and natural disambiguation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC)