Talk:Welsh cuisine/Archive 1

Lob scows?
"Lob Scows is a popular stew in Holyhead and Anglesey" : I grew up in the region and cannot ever remember seeing this dish! 86.33.15.22 (talk) 11:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Clarke's Pies
And why not half of Dark and a Marmite sarnie while we're at it ? And Aardvaark Patty ? And our Mam's goldfish soup ( take one block of orange jelly and a tin of peeled mandarins...)Boulet rouge (talk) 15:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Re-merge British cuisine articles
The cuisine articles (of Britain) originally started out as British cuisine but for presumably nationalistic reasons someone decided to split out Scottish, Welsh and Irish/Northern Irish and rename the old British article to English cuisine. I think this was a mistake. There is so much crossover here that it makes sens to discuss them all together and then have subsections explaining English/Scots/Welsh/Irish/Cornish etc specialities. I was particularly annoyed when someone removed references to the fact that "Britain became a net importer of food" from the English cuisine article because they, they said in the edit summary "British isn't English", they also removed referenced to Gordon Ramsay because he was born in Scotland. This is where it becomes plain silly and the problem would be solved by simply remerging the articles. Jooler (talk) 16:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Of course the cuisine of Scotland, etc deserves a separate article...it's as different to traditional English food as Irish cooking is - which has its own article. I have no problem with Cantonese or Tibetan cuisine having a separate article from Chinese food. Same principle applies surely. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 19:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikilinks
A number of superfluous links have been dewikified (WP:OVERLINK). Wikilinks are generally used to  link to  complementary  information  on  the subject  matter. They are not  intended as dictionary  references for widely  understood nouns and expressions.--Kudpung (talk) 13:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Formatting
Does anyone know how to format the page; to remove the white space at the top? Obscurasky (talk) 08:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Food identity
User:Obscurasky, If you read the sources, you'll find that a number of them say that it is commonly believed that there is no such thing as Welsh food. You can understand that opinion, when one of the most important dishes comes down to "cheese on toast" or "stew". Instead, the Welsh food heritage is tied up in their produce, especially their meat and fish produce. The article goes on to explain all that. WormTT(talk) 12:38, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The quote "Unlike the other parts of the United Kingdom, Wales is not considered have a strong food identity, with many people believing there is "no such thing as Welsh food" is a good example of how, just because an author writes something in a book, that doesn't necessarily make it reliable, or even sensible. What 'other parts of the United Kingdom' are they referring to? Are we talking about other countries, counties, cities? And where is the evidence for the claim that 'many people believe there is no such thing as Welsh food'? How many people were surveyed to establish that as a fact? Were they asked where on Earth they thought Welsh Cakes or Caerphilly Cheese comes from? The statement above is opinion, reproduced in the article as fact. It isn't encyclopedic and it shouldn't be appearing here. Obscurasky (talk) 18:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll see if I can re-write and add some more sources. WormTT(talk) 15:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

NPOV
This article goes out of it's way to say Welsh cuisine doesn't exist, and then goes on to give many examples of it. The lead needs to be completely rewritten to get rid of the NPOV stuff. It's just short of going "Oh those Taffies can't cook." 131.251.254.154 (talk) 09:40, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry you feel this way, no-one else we have spoken to has felt the article comes acrosss this way? We have had it copy-edited by a few people and have done lots of research (including making a trip to Wales) and we believe this article to be accurate. If you can find sources to support your claim that there IS a Welsh cuisine we would be have another look? We are not insulting the Welsh, we are only talking about the cuisine - P.S. Welsh rarebit is lovely! ツStacey (talk) 09:47, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * How can you write the claim that there is no welsh cuisine and the go on to list at length various Welsh dishes? The sources are in the article already! The article contradicts itself. If the claim is correct, you shouldn't be able to write the article in the first place! 131.251.254.154 (talk) 10:20, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We didn't. We wrote that many people believe there is no Welsh cuisine, then explain why people think that. We also explain that Wales' cuisine is based around their produce, rather than their dishes. Seems fairly simple to me. WormTT(talk) 10:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It it is just something people believe, why was it the main focus of the introduction? That's all most people are going to read, and is going to be what the take away from it. 131.251.254.154 (talk) 10:28, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, Cardiff has some great takeaways, you know. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:07, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If you have a look, Fgf10 has now re-ordered it to change the focus. ツStacey (talk) 10:31, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I've rebalanced the lead, it gave undue weight to there 'not being a Welsh cuisine'. Fgf10 (talk) 10:24, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think the source that Worm That Turned added to the "no such thing as Welsh food" part of the lede really supports the claim. Freeman talks about how she got that reaction in the 70s and 80s, but the very next paragraph is about how her book was followed by two major TV series on traditional Welsh food, and the rest of the preface is mostly about the success of the Welsh food revival. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 19:21, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * There's also the Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales, which says much the same thing in 2008. WormTT(talk) 19:29, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Fair point. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 19 April 2016 (UTC) Although that particular weighty tome doesn't even mention "Wikipedia"??
 * I'm still unhappy with the  Many people, both inside and outside Wales, believe there is "no such thing as Welsh food"  quote. I believe it's outdated opinion, not fact - and certainly not encyclopaedic. Is there any evidence, other than anecdotal, to support that claim? Note the quote says 'food' not 'cuisine'; so just where do these many people think Welsh Cakes come from? Obscurasky (talk) 21:19, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, at a purely technical level the phrase "no such thing as Welsh food" is rather nonsensical. Do all the Welsh have to make a regular trip across the border for a bit of adventure?? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Odd sentence in lead
The second sentence in the lead is very odd, almost nonsensical.

Whilst there are a large number of dishes that can be considered Welsh due to their ingredients, dishes such as cawl, Welsh rarebit, laverbread, Welsh cakes, bara brith and the Glamorgan sausage have all been regarded as symbols of Welsh food.

Any comments before I re-write it? Obscurasky (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I certainly have no objection to that sentence being re-written as long as it keeps the information in there. The sentence can almost certainly be better written - I'm not the best writer and since the organisation of the lead has changed, this flows less well than it did. <b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">Worm</b>TT(<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>) 18:09, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

'No such thing as Welsh food'
I'm really unhappy with this claim. I believe it's opinion, it's outdated and frankly, it's rubbish. If it is to stay in the article I think it only reasonable that its validity needs to be demonstrated satisfactorily. Obscurasky (talk) 18:16, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * User:Obscurasky, I'm not happy with removing the "no such thing as Welsh food" quote all together, though I'm happy to look at ways to make it more palatable if there is a way to. Bobby Freeman makes this very clear in her book, twice explaining that it is common opinion, all the way up to the mid 1990s. The Welsh Acadamy Encycloepedia of Wales also makes this point in 2008, the second source you removed. Further, we have the satirical image, the fact that Welsh Rabbit is purely a derogatory term and minimal number of purely unique Welsh dishes. These all point to the same conclusions. The "speculation" as to why came from two separate sources, Bobby Freeman and Mati Thomas. Wikipedia's not here to "right great wrongs", it's meant to follow the sources and this is what the sources are saying. Finally, please accept my apologies for pressing rollback on your edit, it was a slip of the finger, I meant to press undo and certainly don't consider your edits vandalism. <b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">Worm</b>TT(<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>) 18:17, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Also, I'd request that you revert your removal whilst discussion takes place. The article has passed GA in the previous state, has been copyedited by a number of editors. Per Bold, revert, discuss, we should make bold edits (your removal), followed by a revert (me), followed by discussion, which I was starting above. <b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">Worm</b>TT(<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>) 18:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Firstly, I think Bobby Freeman's 20-year-old claim can be left out of this - even if the claim was ever true, it's too old to be relevant now. Welsh Rarebit, satirical or not, it's still a dish notable for being Welsh, and I have *no* idea why you would think that supports the claim that 'many people think there is no such thing as Welsh food'. And, I am not disputing that there are a "lack of written records of Welsh cuisine". It is certainly is speculation, however, to state that this is the reason why 'many people in 2016 believe there is no such thing as Welsh food'. That leaves the The Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales - which is a good source, albeit written 2008. Why don't you accurately reproduce (and credit) what it has to say on the subject. Short quotes are not subject to copyright, and are allowed on Wikipedia. Obscurasky (talk) 18:41, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Certainly, give me a few minutes, I'll put together a few quotes for you. <b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">Worm</b>TT(<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>) 18:44, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Source quotes

 * "The later 20th century saw a revival of interest in ‘Welsh food’, although to some commentators the expression appeared to be a contradiction in terms, and the fare presented as such in some of Wales’s pricier establishments has little of the ‘traditional’ about it. In the early 1990s, the restaurant critic of the Sunday Times wrote that it was possible to travel the length and breadth of Wales ‘without ever stimulating a taste bud’. The comment stung; but the fact remained that the standard of pub and restaurant catering across Wales was decidedly patchy. Although the renaissance of good-quality Welsh produce was already underway in some hotels and restaurants, most eating-places were still serving unimaginative fare, often poorly cooked and presented. Nowadays, many chefs and restaurateurs are promoting the idea of good-quality Welsh produce. Indigenous ingredients such as lamb, Welsh Black beef, venison, salmon, sewin and cockles (see Fish and Fishing), cheeses, laver-bread and leeks are sourced and cooked, sometimes using foreign culinary techniques, or simply presented to let the quality and flavour speak for themselves. At the same time, however, the ordinary diet of many Welsh people owes more to India, China or America than it does to their own country. Chicken tikka masala is the nation’s favourite dish; and burgers and chow mein are now more popular than fish and chips as a takeaway. Pub food (now the most common eating-out experience) is often influenced by Thailand, Italy and Japan, while Welsh food is usually prominent only on St David’s Day." - Food and Drink, The Welsh Acadamy Encyclopedia of Wales, 2008
 * "For years, Welsh food was thought to be uninspiring, and the mere phrase 'Welsh Cuisine' was thought to be an oxymoron" - The Little Book of Wales
 * "From the outside looking in, people assume its all lamb, leek and beef, but in fact there's so much else to Wales," Feature from Independent
 * "If you ask any international resident in Cardiff, almost nobody knows what Welsh food is really like. Apart from Welsh cakes and rarebit, which are easily available and quite popular, it is more difficult to find other dishes as they are not well advertised." ... "But the problem is because Welsh food has taken back a seat for so long it’s very difficult to find them in the city. “When people came they would ask ‘Where should we go?’. In Cardiff, there aren’t that many (Welsh food).” Even the locals, she found out, does not really know their own cuisine." Promoting Welsh food culture

The Welsh assembly has been pushing for a stronger food identity as part of Wales: The True Taste (something that should be part of the article, and might well deserve it's own article). That's mentioned here and in this Welsh Assembly report

I've seen many sources which say that Welsh food resembles wider British food (the similarities between Cawl and many other British stews is a good example), and that Welsh food is based on simple foods for the workers. This is not how traditional dishes are normally created elsewhere in the world. An example is this tourist guide to Wales. Or this Borough Market article

I think we may be able to find a middle ground using sources such as Tourism and Gastronomy which uses "Taste of Wales" food promotion as a case study, or Food, Science and Society which talks about the difference between food in culture and food as culture (i.e., the food that is eaten and the food that is presented to tourists). I strongly believe there is such thing as Welsh food and I do very much enjoy it, but it also has to be acknowledged as a starting point that Welsh food is (and was) regarded negatively. The quote speaks of ignorance of Welsh history, rather than insulting Welsh food.

Took a little longer than I intended... sorry. <b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">Worm</b>TT(<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>) 22:22, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * A robust defence. Most of those sources are pretty recent. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:34, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a hard pill to swallow, but I agree that Welsh food suffers terribly image-wise. If you asked the average Welsh person "what is Welsh cuisine?", they would struggle. Although Freeman was talking some years in the past, her argument stands strong. Very good research, I back the worms stance. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:43, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Steady on, it's not that bad. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm convinced that Welsh cuisine has an image problem worth mentioning. I feel like it would be best to have something nice and sterile about the long-running lack of variety and awareness in the lede, next to the "gastronomic desert" sentence, and then put the "does not exist" quotes in at the modern end of the History section, since those quotes are very much contemporary and closely related to the revival attempts. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 16:05, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, and maybe this belongs in a new section, the repeated references to the Welsh as a band of Celtic nomads who first established settlements in the 11th century seem extremely dubious to me. They are sourced, but only to a couple of standalone sentences by Freeman, who is hardly a historian (and even she only goes so far as to say "semi-nomadic"). There are plenty of ways for a culture to have herding as a major activity and for some parts of a culture to practice transhumance without the entire culture being full-on nomads. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 16:14, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I have removed the claim that "historically the Welsh people were nomadic", which to me looks ridiculous. I have looked in vain for the word "nomadic" in both Welsh people and History of Wales, and I would have been surprised to find it. I really don't think we can use Freeman as a reliable source for such a claim. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:45, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree. I didn't fully appreciate the difference between a Transhumance and a nomadic existence, indeed, I didn't know the former word existed before the beginning of this week. <b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">Worm</b>TT(<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>) 17:54, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe they just packed sandwiches. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

"nomadic Celtic society"
While I appreciate the effort and sourcing that has been put into this article, the characterization of pre-11th century Wales as a "nomadic Celtic society" seems rather peculiar to me. The Celts since antiquity managed to establish some notable settlements and do not seem to have been nomadic.

Wales is not exactly known for extensive urbanisation in antiquity or the Middle Ages, but we do have articles for a number of settlements in the area. The article on Caerwent suggests continued occupation of the city and its area since the Roman era, with archaeological evidence of it being a significant center from the 4th until the 9th century. Moridunum, another former Roman settlement, possibly survived until the era of Nennius in the 9th century. It is unclear whether Monmouth was abandoned in the post-Roman era or continued to be settled, but its article mentions building activity in the 7th century.

Perhaps the term should be revised, to better reflect that Wales in the Early Middle Ages did not revert to a Stone Age society. Dimadick (talk) 12:40, 22 April 2016 (UTC)


 * But is there any reliable source that demonstrates the link between the Welsh being semi-nomadic, non-nomadic, or practicing "transhumance", etc., and their cuisine? I think we have agreed we can't use Freeman. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:58, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We do have written sources that state that before the 18th century transhumance was a common practice in Wales, as people moved their cattle, sheep and goats from the hafod to the hendre. This is in the Welsh Academy Encyclopedia (page 128). I also have written mentions, that there are several areas of the uplands of Glamorgan which were segregated by dykes; that seem to suggest seasonal pastoralists, backed up by finds of early tools but little in the way of domestic structures. (Paul R. Davis, writing in 'Historic Rhondda'). FruitMonkey (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, fine, all good, I'm sure. But do they make any connection to cuisine? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:54, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I removed the last mention of "Celtic nomadism" from the top of the "Meat and fish" section. It kind of leaves a hole in the article, which I'd like to fill with something about how favorable terrain for cowherding and a dairy-friendly culture (which was by no means a universal thing in medieval Europe) led to a lot of cattle-raising and butter/cheese consumption, but I can't add anything right at the moment. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 19:28, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I suppose, at least historically, whatever is grown or reared most will form the basis for the ingredient's of a nation's cuisine. Perhaps something along these lines will fill the gap which FruitMonkey is trying to fill above. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:57, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Peculiar sentence in lead.
"Whilst there are a large number of dishes that can be considered Welsh due to their ingredients and/or history, dishes such as cawl, Welsh rarebit, laverbread, Welsh cakes, bara brith and the Glamorgan sausage have all been regarded as symbols of Welsh food".

I removed this sentence from the lead but FruitMonkey wants me to get consensus first. I want to remove it from the lead (and also later in the article too) because it's an unsourced, and possibly speculative, claim; It's written in an unencyclopedic manner which is also difficult to read; And, it adds nothing of value to the article. Obscurasky (talk) 12:12, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd disagree with the fact that the sentence is unsourced. At the point of writing citation 44 sources the claim. FruitMonkey (talk) 14:39, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * A citation on it's own won't give the sentence relevance or make it more encyclopaedic. What are these 'large number of dishes'?Obscurasky (talk) 15:26, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, "large number of dishes" is unhelpful. Could you give this a day or two to see if anyone else has anything to say. If not, then carry on with your improvements. Thanks. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:12, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Questionable claim
"with the first [Gastropub] in the country credited as the The Walnut Tree in Llanddewi Skirrid."

I've removed this claim from the 'Eating out' section because I can't find any other reference to support it - yet there are many which state that the first gastropub was actually the The Eagle in Clerkenwell (London) (Google). It's also notable that the claim is not repeated on the The Wallnut Tree's own Wikipedia page. Obscurasky (talk) 22:46, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Does it not mean the first gastropub in Wales, not Great Britain? FruitMonkey (talk) 06:37, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a good point. The reference, apparently, comes from a book called 'The Story of Britain through its Cooking', so when the article said it was the first Gastropub in the country I took that to mean 'Britain'. It needs clarifying at least, although I am still wondering why it I can't find any other reference to support the claim, nor is it repeated on the The Walnut Tree's Wiki page, or on it's website? Obscurasky (talk) 18:11, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Well if you came to that conclusion then others will too, so it does need clarification. Though like you I can not find any information stating that it was the first gastropub. I've found 'putting Wales on the culinary map', but no more. Maybe if we can find the first Michelin starred resuarant in Wales it would be more acceptable? FruitMonkey (talk) 18:59, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

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