Talk:Wichí

Comment
The text added by user DanielCD is copied from the Catholic Encyclopedia Vol. X, with Copyright © 1911 by Robert Appleton Company. Therefore, it does not break any wopyrights rule. -Mariano 15:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Disputed - derogatory term
The word "Mataco" used in the title and the text of the article is derogatory. Unless you expect to have an article on Britons called "Filthy Pirates", or one on Frenchmen titled "Cheese eaters not fond of showers", it would be reasonable to move the article to the accepted name, Wichí. Wichí people speak three closely related languages; Wichí Lhamtés Vejoz (also known as "Vejos", Bermejo Vejos dialect), Wichí Lhamtés Güisnay and Wichí Lhamtés Nocten. There is no reliable information on the current number of Wichí people, but it could be estimated between 40.000 and 80.000, living in the Bermejo river basin, in the northern provinces of Chaco, Formosa and Salta. Cinabrium 07:09, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * You have a point, but remember that they are better known as Matacos. Same thing happens with the Querandies, Calchaquie, etc. We could move the Article, but keeping a redirect form Matacos and including the Bolded Name at the beginning of the article (with an explanation of the origin of the modern denomination).
 * Please, remember to add some bibliographical support to such impetuous statements. -Mariano (t/c) 08:17, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The Tobas were named by their enemies, too. It would be wonderful if you could add good, well-sourced data on these people. The Encyclopedia Catholica is outdated and its POV is terribly partial, but it's all we've got for the moment. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 15:57, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

A reply
Pablo, the worst case seems to be that of Chiriguano (from Quechua chiri, cold and wanu, shit), as stated elsewhere. WRT Wichí people and language, many sources point to the Mataco term as derogatory, even if it has been (and still is) widely used in literature; among others: Gordon (2005), Occhipinti (2003), Fabre (unp.). More important, Wichí themselves consider the "mataco" word as derogatory. It was imposed by Spaniards, and its roots are not very clear, but it corresponds to "tatú bola" (Tolypeutes matacus), an armadillo[1. Other interesting sources are quoted below.

The self-denomination of the ethnical group in Argentina is Wichí, and they name their language wici &#620;amtes. There is a pronunciation variant in some areas of Bolivia, wik&#736;i'&#673;, where the self-denomination of the group is Weenhayek wik&#736;i', translated by Alvarsson (1988:p2) as "the different people" (pl. Weenhayey). Weenhayey informers of Alvarsson state that the old name was Olhamelh (o&#620;ame&620;), meaning simply us. The subgroups within Wichí have been indentified and received different names in literature: Nocten or Octenay in Bolivia, Véjos or (perhaps more properly) Wejwus or Wehwos for the Western subgroup(s), and Güisnay for the Eastern subgroups of Argentina. The latter corresponds to Tewoq-&#620;elej, "the river people".

In Argentina:
 * Eighteen Wichí groups live in the NW area of the Province of Chaco, Argentina, about 180km NW of the town of Castelli;
 * A large number of communities[2] live in Bermejo, Matacos, Patiño and Ramón Lista departments, Province of Formosa.
 * Another significant number of communities live in San Martín, Rivadavia, Orán, Metán and Anta departments, Province of Salta. The communities in the latter department, isolated from the other ones, are at severe risk of extinction as shown by Terraza (2001).
 * Other communities with a few individuals each live in Santa Bárbara, San Pedro and Ledesma departments, Province of Jujuy.

In Bolivia:
 * Gran Chaco province, Tarija Department[3], in Pilcomayo River, from (and including) the town of Villa Montes up to D'Orbigny, in the Argentine border.

Total number of speakers:
 * Estimates have some variation, and no reliable figures exist. Comparing several sources, the most probable number is from 40 to 50,000 individuals. Argentine Census Bureau (INDEC) gives a figure of 36,135 for Argentina only. For Bolivia, Alvarsson estimated between 1,700 and 2,000 speakers in 1988; census reported 1,912, and Diez Astete & Riester (1996) estimated between 2,300 and 2,600 Weenhayek.

Barúa (1991-92) and Braunstein (1991; 1991-92; 1993) classify 11 groups: (1) Noctén or Oktenay, extreme NW of the Wichi zone in Bolivian Pilcomayo (2) Salta Pilcomayo communities, including La Paz Mission; (3) Wehwos (Vejoz) in the area of Tartagal and the Bermejo River, Salta (4) Lantawos, nomads ("montaraces") in the zone of Alto de la Sierra, Rivadavia department, Salta; (5) Güisnay or Wenhayéy in Formosa Pilcomayo, E of Salta border; (6) Nomad groups in Formosa and Salta, located E of the prior group including San Patricio, Los Blancos, Pozo de Maza, El Quebracho and Pozo Yacaré communities; (7) SW groups, between Rivadavia department (Salta) zone of Bermejo River and Salta-Jujuy borders; (8) Cunatas, in Bermejo and Bermejito rivers, E of Chaco-Salta border up to Nueva Pompeya; (9) Bermejo groups in Chaco Province, E of group #8; (10) Bazanero (Ukutas), in Pozo del Mortero and J.G. Bazán areas, NW of Las Lomitas and SE of Laguna Yema, central Formosa Province; and (11) Omeléy or Abajeños, the southeasternmost groups, SE of Las Lomitas.

Notes:
 * 1) MacDonald, Dr. David [Editor], 1984. The Encyclopedia of Mammals. Equinox Ltd. Pg 783. See also a nice photo  here.
 * 2) I'll try to be more precise, as soon as I find the direct source that is lying somewhere in my ocean of paper :)
 * 3) Please note that in Argentina "departments" are subdivisions of a "province", and exactly the opposite in Bolivia.

Bibliography

"I will complete this section tomorrow. It's tooooooooooo late. Please accept my apologies"'.
 * Alvarsson
 * Barúa
 * Braunstein
 * de la Cruz
 * Diez Astete & Riester
 * Fabre
 * Gordon
 * Occhipinti
 * Terraza


 * I've moved the page, fixed the redirect links, and incorporated a nice amount of the text above into the article, while diminishing the importance of the Catholic Encyclopedia text. I also found a couple of sources; I hope I guessed right based on the names and dates. Surprisingly, there is a lot of material on the Wichí. There's a whole lot of pages or small snippets here and there about a new Bible translation into Wichí, which I didn't mention in the Reference section; I also saw materials about the transcription/orthography of the language. I wish there was more on history. In any case, the good thing is that this article is far from complete but needn't stay like this... --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 15:49, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Pablo, you've done a nice work. I'm adding some more bibliographical sources and some snippets here and there. Cinabrium 02:56, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Filme 2012
Filme 2012: Va punem la dispozitie intreaga colectie de filme lansate in anul 2012, filme 2012, filme noi 2012, filme 2012 noi, filme lansate in anul 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.119.171.115 (talk) 18:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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