Talk:Winnats Pass

Disputed content: formation of Winnats Pass
Following the removal in this edit of uncited but probably legitimate content, I am adding a disputed template to what I thought I remembered was the old theory that Winnats was formed as a result of a collapsed cavern. I'm happy for uncited content to be removed, but I do need to highlight my belief that good modern sources must be available to support (or deny) the explanation that Winnats is a re-exhumed reef landscape akin to that seen at the algal mudmounds of Chrome and Parkhouse Hill and at Thorpe Cloud/Bunster Hill. I'll try and check my resources at home, though sadly I no longer have access to Derby Museum's geological library and files. Either way, it would be good to have more reliable geological sources than a popular National Trust webpage. I'm not criticising the edit - just wishing to flag up an issue that I believe needs better resolution. Nick Moyes (talk) 11:48, 23 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Might we use this from the British Geological Society? i think BGS would classify as a reliable source. The "coral reef" basis is what I was taught in the 1970s (school and university) and the BGS article seems to support it. Perhaps the article's lead, however, isn't the best place for it. Feline Hymnic (talk) 19:15, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, yes, that helps. I've been searching at home for Simspon's Geological Excursion Guide to no avail, and sadly don't have Trevor Ford's publications either (even though I do remember him leading an excellent field trip for the EMGS many years back.) And Wolverson Cope's Geology Explained in the Peak District is of no use at all. That said, I have now found a number of additional references, from which I would propose the following outline as an acceptable, basic explanation. I don't have time right now to word it into an exact form, but the very rough gist (with some inevitable WP:OR at this stage) would be as follows (I hope to be able to add the relevant sources later tomorrow):

Formation The gorge of Winnats Pass was once thought to have originated as a giant collapsed cavern; however this idea has since been superceded. Winnats Pass can be seen to cut steeply down through Lower Carboniferous limestone rocks. These were formed approximately 340 million years ago as a reef fringing a shallow lagoon, with deeper water beyond. The presence of a small outcrop of fossiliferous rock (known as 'beach beds') at the base of Winnats Pass, close to Speedwell cavern, suggests that a contemporary underwater cleft or canyon once existed within the active reef which caused the build up of shelly and crinoidal remains at its base. All these sediments were subsequently buried together under Namurian sandstones and shales in the subsequent Upper Carboniferous period. They were subsequently uplifted, but were only re-exposed by periglacial erosion towards the end of the Pleistocene. Melting water would have flowed along any lines of weakness within the reef limestone, such as the once created by the presence of the original underwater cleft in the reef, thus carving out the Winnats Pass gorge we see today.

Bullet list of bare urls (still to be rearranged/properly cited,)
 * http://www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeology/geologyOfBritain/limestoneLandscapes/regionalStudies/peakDistrict.html
 * http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/id/eprint/511287/1/KG@B%202015%20Carboniferous%20field%20guide.pdf
 * https://orca.cf.ac.uk/54552/1/U584727.pdf
 * http://www.emgs.org.uk/files/mercian_vol13on/Mercian%20Geologist%20volume%2014%201996-1999/MG14_4_1999_161_Ford_The%20growth%20of%20geological%20knowledge%20in%20the%20Peak%20District.pdf
 * http://eprints.keele.ac.uk/153/1/The%20carboniferous%20Southern%20Pennine%20Basin%2C%20UK%20%28JPringle%29.pdf
 * http://www.emgs.org.uk/files/mercian_vol13on/Mercian%20Geologist%20volume%2016%202004-2007/Mercian%202005%20v16%20p142%20Castleton%20reef%20excursion,%20Slavin.pdf

Sorry this is a bit messy at this stage. Nick Moyes (talk) 02:45, 24 March 2020 (UTC)


 * That sounds great. I had seen the Mark Harwood 'orca.cf.ac.uk' thesis and was pleased to see him referencing the work of Martin Bott and Tony (G.A.L.) Johnson, who had taught me at Durham. (I ended up not doing anything with geology or geophysics, but still remember the time fondly.) Thanks again. Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:01, 24 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Would you be happy for me to incorporate your text above (+/- minor copyediting; citation formatting; etc.) and insert it into the article? Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:59, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, please feel free. I'm simply too busy right now to focus on this in detail, but will pop back later and make any tweaks. It struck me that one other major improvement that could be worked on is its being a component part of the much larger Castleton SSSI, with a section on its ecology and geology. I was really stunned to see the SSSI doesn't exist as an article as yet - perhaps because the SSSI name matches the name of the village. But there's no mention of of the SSSI in the village article, either. The Castleton SSSI citation can be found here and here. In fact, there's a lot of SSSIs in the county which don't have articles about them. Nick Moyes (talk) 15:44, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

OK, I've basically done the incorporation of your "Winnats Pass" text and refs. It's not perfect (for instance, I've simply bundled all the non-NT inline cites at the end of the paragraph) so feel free to tweak it further. I'll make a note of the (lack of) Castleton SSSI and hope to return to it. Feline Hymnic (talk) 16:36, 28 March 2020 (UTC)