Talk:Women in Judaism

Women's prayer groups
The text you propose is the following:


 * Since women are not allowed to lead services or read from the Torah in Orthodox Jewish synagogues, a small number of Orthodox women have begun holding women's tefila (prayer) groups. While no Orthodox legal authorities agree that women can form a prayer quorum for the purpose of regular services, women in these groups read the prayers, and study Torah. The emergence of this phenomenon has enmeshed Orthodox Judaism in a debate which still continues today. Basically there are three schools of Orthodox thought on this issue.
 * The first school of thought rules the while women do not constitute a minyan, they may still carry out full prayer services. The first Jewish authority who ruled this way was Israel's late Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi, Shlomo Goren, in 1974. he reaffimed this view for 15 years; however after receiving harsh criticism from Haredi rabbis, Rabbi Goren stated that his writing was purely a speculative work published against his wishes, and not intended as a practical responsum. This view is still held by some Orthodox rabbis, such as Avi Weiss and many rabbis associated with Edah.
 * The second school of thought includes leading faculty of Modern Orthodox Judaism's Yeshiva University, and almost all Haredi Rabbis. This school of thought holds that all women's prayer groups are absolutely forbidden by Jewish law.
 * A third school of thought maintains that women's prayer groups can be compatiable with halakha, but only if they do not carry out a full prayer service (i.e. do not include certain parts of the service known as "devarim she-bi-kdusha"), and only if services are spiritually and sincerely motivated; they cannot be sanctioned if they are inspired by a desire to rebel against halakha. People in this school of thought include Rabbis Moshe Feinstein, Joseph Soloveitchik, Avraham Elkana Shapiro, former British Chief Rabbi Immanuel Jakobovits, and Israel's late Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren, among others[1] (http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/tfila/frimmer1.htm).


 * Many Orthodox Jewish feminists have taken umbridge at this view, saying that it is inappropriate for men to publicly judge a women's inner intention's, while women are not allowed to judge men's inner intentions. They reject entirely the claim that their are being judged as "rebelling against halakha".

Woman's Prayer Groups- Question Sources
The interpretation of the sources provided for the existence of prayer groups in the middle ages is unsourced original research. The Kol Bo is referring specifically to Tisha Baav- hardly a direct source for the inference of "woman's prayer groups" (which implies normative praying- not the dirges of Tisha Baav). Additionally, it was common practice in the synagogues of Europe for a knowledgeable woman to repeat the prayers out loud for woman who did not know how to pray. However- and this is crucial- these were not separate "woman's groups," but were in the womans section praying with the men! Basically, a regular minyan with the addition of a woman helping out less knowledgeable congregants. Therefore, the interpretation of these sources as referring to separate "woman's prayer groups" is unsourced speculative original research. 38.117.213.19 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The source is Grossman, Avraham. Pious and Rebellious: Jewish Women in Medieval Europe. Translated from the Hebrew by Jonathan Chapman. Brandeis University Press, 2004. ISBN 1-58465-392-2. The language is not intended to suggest that what happened in the Middle Ages is precisely the same as what occurs in a contemporary "women's prayer group" or that contemporary groups are successors to the Medieval situation. It is intended only to support that in Medieval Europe, (a) Jewish women prayed in groups separately from men on certain occassions, and (b) it was common for women to lead prayers with respect to other women, and such women were identified specifically as prayer leaders. Both propositions are supported by the source, as you note. We can adjust the language if it implies otherwise. Hope this helps. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 19:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * We should indeed adjust the language to reflect your above comment. It is worth noting that the term "prayer leader" is loaded. It would imply that a woman led the prayers in a traditional sense i.e. recitation of prayers that require a minyan. I will work on a new draft and post it here for comment before editing the article. 38.117.213.19 (talk) 18:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Role of R Mordechai Kaplan Z'l
Rabbi Kaplan IIUC conducted the first Bat Mitzvah ceremony, a landmark in Judaism. He did it while he was still associated with JTS, but this is not noted in the Conservative J section, where he is not mentioned at all. In the new Recon section only his actions after founding Recon are mentioned. R Kaplan's career, and its impact on women, started BEFORE he founded Recon, and it seems appropriate to mention it.

Ricardianman (talk) 01:11, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Debates within Orthodoxy essay
What should we do with the Debates within Orthodoxy essay? I don't think we should keep it as it is. Should we dispose of it entirely? I'm not sure how to "rescue" it. Any thoughts? --GHcool (talk) 22:49, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Editing to Middle Ages
As part of my course, I re-wrote the section on the Middle Ages. If you would like to see the article before my changes, visit http://web.archive.org/web/20121129094615/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Judaism I was able to address some of the issues talked about, such as the women's prayer groups. rr9842a (talk) 01:53, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

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defender of modesty
The part in the "Rules of modesty" section that claims, "This is reflective of the women's role in being the historical defender of modesty and the purity of the Jewish people" and speaks about the Golden Calf and the heresy at Peor sounds like a bubbemeise. If it cannot be cited to a reliable source, I propose removing it. --GHcool (talk) 20:12, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * DONE. --GHcool (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

To be removed?
This statement doesn't seem to relate to Education. The Cairo Geniza is filled with correspondences written (sometimes dictated) between family members and spouses. Many of these letters are pious and poetic and express a desire to be in closer or more frequent contact with a loved one that is far enough away to only be reached by written correspondence. There are also records of wills and other personal legal documents as well as written petitions to officials in cases of spousal abuse or other conflicts between family members written or dictated by women. Perhaps it fits somewhere else, but not in this section.Pngeditor (talk) 12:24, 19 September 2022 (UTC) Pngeditor (talk) 12:24, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * DONE. ✅