This discussion has been closed as an unsuccessful Good Article nomination. Please do not modify it. It may contain guidance on how to improve this article.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'll take this one on, and you can expect some more comments by the weekend, if not sooner. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for waiting. I'm going to start working through this section by section and then come back around to the lead.
Gameplay
Thanks for a good opening sentence explaining the basics.
Thanks! I did a few adjustments on that, but a lot was done by other editors. Zekerocks11 (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"affects in-game events, including quests enemy strength, and item availability " -> "affects in-game events such as the availability of quests and items."
I added a comma after events. Done Zekerocks11 (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"cohesive" -> does this word add anything?
Cohesive means "something that sticks together" by definition. In this scenario, it means that the world is like, a world, and not islands like in Xenoblade Chronicles 2.
"Players can now turn on a quest navigation line that will mark a line on the ground to follow if they are unsure of how to reach their destination." -> there is probably a simpler way to say this without saying "line" twice back to back
Changed "line" to "mode". Done Zekerocks11 (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Fall damage returns" -> Is this important? For veteran players it might be a small piece of trivia. For outside readers like me, I need more context to understand. Decide if it's worth going into more depth, otherwise you can just drop it.
"As a character continuously uses Arts, they will eventually be able to unlock a Talent Art." -> this is another sentence that could be simpler, unless it's trying to say something I'm missing
I'm not sure what you mean by this here. Zekerocks11 (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"grant a large chunk of bonus damage to" -> "grant bonus damage against"
Reworded and changed. Done Zekerocks11 (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The tutorial paragraph seems out of context with the battle system section
I'm going to move this below the chain attack blob of text, but I want to make sure that this is included somewhere in the article, as past games in the series were known for their notoriously awful tutorials. Zekerocks11 (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"members successfully land hits on the enemy players" -> "members hit their opponents"
"Unlike previous entries, the ability to heal players is not reflected on the gauge, rather, only characters with a healing Class equipped is able to heal other characters." -> this sentence sort of breaks up the understanding of chain attacks
I'm not sure where to put this, if you have any suggestions, please let me know.
"characters current Class" -> "character's current Class"
Although the explanation of the chain attack is basically grammatical, I think a reader might have trouble understanding the basics. Is the effectiveness of the move based on timing? The type of enemy? Is it a dexterity challenge?
I will be honest, Chain Attacks are the most complex mechanic in all of the series. I didn't want to go too into depth on it, because I feel as though that might have taken up too much space, but I am going to reword some things and add a bit more content to hopefully allow it to make more sense. For reference, this is the "in depth and nerdy understanding of it". It's one of those things where it's like super hard to explain but makes sense when you play it lol. Please let me know if you see something you don't like with the change. Zekerocks11 (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Plot
"each with their own Ferronis, a giant metal mech, which contain a Flame Clock, holding the life force extracted from the deaths of opposing soldiers" -> "each with their own giant metal mech called a Ferronis, which trap the life force of fallen enemy soldiers in a Flame Clock." (it's a lot of commas)
"The wars are fought by engineered soldiers with artificially limited lifespans of ten years (referred to as terms), all ten of which are spent on fighting to fill their colonies' Flame Clocks, hoping to reach the end of their tenth and final year to receive a Homecoming ceremony from their nation's Queen." -> "The wars are fought by engineered soldiers with artificially limited lifespans of ten years, as they fight to fill their colony's Flame Clock in hopes of receiving a Homecoming ceremony at the end of their term."
The Lost Numbers are depicted in the following sentence. If you think further clarification is needed, let me know. Zekerocks11 (talk) 21:00, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This section is basically grammatical, and I think I was able to understand most of the plot. But keep in mind that Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction tries to keep plot summaries to less than 700 words. I am not about to pull up a word counter, but think about ways to cover the broad strokes without as much detail.
Yeah, we're about 200 words-ish over in the Story section alone. While MOS tries to keep plot summaries to less than 700 words, Xenoblade Chronicles 1's plot is at 990 in their plot section, which is exactly 109 over this plot summary. Considering that has GA status currently, I believe the precedent is set that the 700 word rule has a bit of wiggle room. I will think about other ways to take the words down, as ultimately, you are the reviewer and what you say goes. Zekerocks11 (talk) 21:00, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Development
Is the visual of the broken sword really the start of development? I think it might make more sense to explain the pitch, and then retread back to concepts that were inspired by their work on the previous games.
Basically, what is being described here, is that Takahashi originally had the idea of the theme of this game at the beginning of the development of Xenoblade 2, so probably around late 2014-mid 2015. What I can assume, is after he had the idea of the titan themed world of Xenoblade 2, pretty quickly he was like "oh wait, if i bring the titan together with the sword, the sword could be stabbing the titan." which then turned into "wait, if the sword is stabbing the titan, then the game can be about the two worlds fighting." Then he pitched his idea, which I assume is this, to Nintendo around a year after Xenoblade 2 launched and was pretty much a success. Of course, this is me basically talking out of my ass, and from what I can see, nothing backs up the claim I'm making. Zekerocks11 (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph about the marketing and release might make more sense at the end of the section. You could merge it with the subsection about the special edition, and have an entire (sub)section about the release.
The music section is entirely sourced to primary sources and self-published sources. Keep in mind the principle of WP:UNDUE weight, and that we try to cover things in proportion to how secondary sources have covered it. Are there any secondary sources about the music?
I am currently unable to find anything, sadly. Zekerocks11 (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The development section is a little light overall. Is there any additional information we can pull in?
Surprisingly enough, most information on development came from a series from Nintendo called "Ask the Developer," as you can see with a lot of the sources. Most of the content from development came from Primary Sources, as Secondary Sources didn't really cover it too much, and Nintendo basically just posted a wall of content in 3 separate parts for development on the game. Zekerocks11 (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to pause it there. I think the biggest issue will actually be the development section, in order to meet the "broadness" criteria for WP:GAN. The article is well written overall and my hope is we can find ways to get this across the finish line. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:36, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to circle back and see if there's anything we missed.
Lead
"Xenoblade Chronicles 3 depicts the futures of the worlds" -> Depicting the future is sort of an odd phrasing for something that the player will experience in the present. Maybe depicts the consequences for the worlds?
"and the finale of the numbered trilogy, concluding the overarching narrative established in the first game" -> "and concludes the trilogy's overall narrative."
"combining the battle mechanics and featuring recognizable content from the previous entries" -> "featuring content and combat gameplay from previous Xeno entries."
I'm not sure much needs to be in the lead about the announcement, especially the detail about the date moving around. You can just state the release date.
"Unlike previous Xenoblade series entries, which limited the number of active party members to three, the game allows for up to seven party members to participate in battles at once, including the main party of six and one additional "Hero" character." -> this sentence runs on with lots of commas, and starts to feel choppy and difficult to read.
"Up to 19 Heroes can be recruited to the party by completing story events or sidequests, each possessing different skills and abilities, and the player can switch between them while outside of battle." -> this one too to a lesser extent.
Maybe pull the last fragment out into its own sentence?
"Traversing the map is a similar affair to previous Xenoblade Chronicles games, with some new features introduced. Players can now turn on a quest navigation mode that will mark a line on the ground to follow if they are unsure of how to reach their destination." -> As I said above, this kind of runs on, and can be probably said in fewer words.
"and others will summon a circular field that gradually regenerate HP to anyone inside the field. " -> "and others will regenerate health for any allies within an area."
"Break—Topple—Daze combo" -> I think this is getting too technical for anyone who hasn't played the game. Try to describe this in a more general way.
This is the actual name of the combo which describes the temp stun for enemies in combat. The only choice here is to either remove it or keep it in, your call. Best, Zeke (talk) 04:17, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Unlike previous entries, the ability to heal players is not reflected on the gauge, rather, only characters with a healing Class equipped is able to heal other characters." -> If there isn't a better place to put this, I recommend removing it. It seems like an unnecessary detail for a section that is already overly detailed.
I appreciate that chain attacks are a complicated system, but I think this section is moving in the wrong direction. The goal on Wikipedia isn't to create a detailed description similar to a fan wiki, but to help a general reader understand broadly how a system works.
Tried to fix, let me know if you would like it to be shortened more. Best, Zeke (talk) 04:17, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, the guideline on this is to make this a bit shorter. I am not the type of person to count words, but this section feels long, and with a lot of detail that would confuse a general reader. I'd like to see this follow a more summary style, regardless of the word count.
Development
If there aren't any secondary sources about the music, then I recommend shortening this section to a sentence or two, as per WP:DUE weight.
I'm going to pause there again. A few of the comments from the first pass remain unresolved. I can understand that it takes a while to understand how to make these improvements so just try to put in your best effort. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I left comments on things that weren't resolved as done, awaiting an answer from you. I will continue working on this again in a few hours, but if possible, I would like if you could respond to the comments left by me to make sure you've gotten them and to make sure you have no further feedback on it. Best, Zeke (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, that's my fault for not being more clear. I tried to bring them up again, but let me make sure we didn't miss anything.
"Unlike previous entries, the ability to heal players is not reflected on the gauge, rather, only characters with a healing Class equipped is able to heal other characters." (consider dropping this one altogether)
The opening sentence about the development and the image of the sword doesn't make much sense to an outside reader. At the very least, I think there's a better opening sentence.
The music section is all primary sourced and should be shorter.
I know that's a lot. If you're willing to work at it, I'm willing to stick it through and keep offering feedback. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh trust me, we're going to get this thing done Best, Zeke (talk) 21:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Shooterwalker I did the minor things you asked for. Changing the plot is going to take a bit, and I'm probably going to try and see if I can call someone else in for help on it as well at some point. I'll keep biting at it during the week. Best, Zeke (talk) 04:19, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be better to wait until the game awards? Since the game is nominated best music and even goty, that might draw media attention. MilkyDefer 11:10, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I mean honestly, if I work for it, I could get this sucker featured article status on time. I completely forgot about that to be honest. I'll have to work fast on this one Best, Zeke (talk) 13:08, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind waiting for the edits and I appreciate you working on this. Getting a second opinion on the plot part would help a lot, as well as how to cover the chain attack mechanic. Let's check back in after a week or so. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:06, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to work on this a bit today. I want to finish it up here soon in time for TGA. Best, Zeke (talk) 17:16, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but sources 12 and 16 should be okay to use correct? Only 14 and 15 need to get replaced? Best, Zeke (talk) 17:17, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I believe I just fixed this if you want to check Best, Zeke (talk) 17:20, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I also just tried to fix the development section. If you would like, and I would prefer, to call in someone else to fix up the plot and development section as needed as I have no further ways to really change or fix those areas unless I'm given like, specific things to do. Best, Zeke (talk) 17:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Random thing about the 'development' section: I'm not sure about the phrase "development on the game in August 2018 after Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna – The Golden Country went gold. "Gone gold" is sort of an entertainment media jargon term, "finished development" would be more clear. Additionally, Xenoblade 3 was covered in Nintendo's "Ask the Developer" series (Part 1, 2, and 3)—perhaps they would be good sources to implement. Otherwise, looks good! DecafPotato (talk) 04:45, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was told that there were too many primary sources, which is why I cut the limit on those sources. I'll consider changing that. Best, Zeke (talk) 16:55, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My interpretation of the comment wasn't the existence of the section being sourced by primary sources, it was more that the section was too long for only being sourced by primary sources. But I also didn't make that comment :) DecafPotato (talk) 18:03, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just giving this a quick look. The music section used to be all primary sources, but the Shacknews source might fix that. I'd rather review this once all the issues are addressed. The main thing is to fix the plot section to make it more readable. It will probably help to make it shorter, with less detail and less proper nouns. But just think about making it understandable for an outside reader. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Checking back in. I'm putting the review on hold and there's no hurry. Just let me know what you think is a realistic timeline on some of the copy-editing. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:49, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't heard back in a while. The article has come a long way and I think it could still reach GA, but it's not there yet. Unless Zekerocks11 returns, or someone else picks this up (DecafPotato?) I may have to give this a fail. Someone can always try again later. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:07, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Shooterwalker—FYI, Zekerocks hasn't done anything since the tenth, three weeks ago. And it's hard for me to pick up the article when I'm still avoiding reading the Plot section, lol. DecafPotato (talk) 20:13, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, plot sections are hard. I'll give Zekerocks11 a few more days. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't heard from ZekeRocks11 since December 4th, so I'm going to have to give this a fail. I want to focus on the positive. Many parts of this article are GA quality. It still needs some copy-editing, especially around the battle system and plot sections. I encourage someone to try again later and I hope ZekeRocks11 knows their contributions are valuable. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
