Talk:Yoshiyuki Tomino

Sources & References, Again
It frustrates me that we have to go through this again after 2 months went by without you complaining once about it after I added those sources to the main page, but oh well, here we go again:

Sources: First off, as has already been said, the shows themselves are the main source. Much of what I wrote there summarizes events from the shows to explain why Tomino earned the nickname of "Kill Em All Tomino" and why he is well known in the anime community for the large amount of death in his shows for the period of roughly 1977 - 1994. Your claim that summarizing events from the shows to explain the nickname is not a source is completely invalid. If as you claim, summarizing events that took place in the show are unrefenced and original research, then you MUST go to every single anime page that does the same and post the same tags (which will be pretty much every single anime page out there!). You then must go to every single page on wikipedia that summarizes the events of television shows, movies and books. Because again, in all those instances where the events of these forms of entertainment are summarized, the entity itself is the main source. As long as you refuse to put up such tags this argument is completely invalid. And you'll find that if you do such post tags that you'll get a huge uproar because you'll essentially end up censoring huge portions of wikipedia. Remember, wikipedia is not censored, even though you appear to want to censor this article.

Second, to appease you I already posted three additional sources that either discuss the nature of Tomino's shows, or refer to him as Kill Em All Tomino. The Animerica article discusses the dark nature of Triton of the Sea and Zambot 3. The Anime Encyclopedia discusses all of these shows, and specifically states (in the main Gundam article) on page 159: "...the franchise returned to the TV series Victory Gundam (1993), though the director (who had gained the nickname Kill Em All Tomino after Zambot 3) soon asserted his trademark angst and tragedy". The book Gundam The Official Guide also states the following in the Zeta Gundam section: "It's also the most unrelievedly grim entry in the Gundam saga, with a none to lovable cast and a bloodbath finale that recalls director Yoshiyuki Tomino's Kill-Em-All heyday".

Speculation: I have placed no speculation in this article. Everything I have posted in this article is a fact. It's a fact that Tomino was given the nickname Kill Em All Tomino after Zambot 3. It's a fact that there is a large amount of death in Zambot 3, Ideon, Dunbine, Zeta Gundam, Char's Counterattack and Victory Gundam. The only speculation in that entire part of the article is the following line, which was not added by me, but someone else: "(It has been speculated that instead of being killed, the entire battle entourage was sent back to Byston Well to prevent further destruction on Earth.)"  This line is definately speculation and states that. If you have a problem with this line, please explain, as I would have no problem with removing it (although whoever put it there may want to discuss the matter with you).

Cleanup: You will have to explain how this needs cleanup. I've kept the article relatively short and to the point. I see nothing there that IMHO needs to be removed with the exception of the above mentioned line on Dunbine. Quiddity99 23:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Quiddity99


 * According to the Manual of style, this articles requires a huge amount of cleanup to have it conform to encyclopedia standards. Not only that, not a single sentence in the article is referenced per References and there is still a large amount of speculation and fancruft presented throughout the entire article. Please follow the guidelines linked within the tags in question to understand why these have been added. The tags are to remain due to the section not conforming to the above standards, so unless these concerns are met, these should obviously stay. Unfortunately, the article has not been improved at all, and more, all you are doing is removing the concerned tags from the section in question. Ganryuu   ( talk ) 23:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You continue to completely ignore anything I ask you. Your tags are going to be removed every single time until you prove your opinion. The references have been posted and are described above. You continue to refuse to explain your claims. Instead all you say over and over again is that the article is unreferenced and fancruft when you have yet to state a single reason why. References are there. All from reputable sources (a well known published book about anime, one of the most well known anime magazines that has existed in america, and the 'official' gundam book) There is no opinion in the article. It is all official to the extent that it can be official. Everything I've stated that occured in the show, occured in the show. Its directly from the show, you can't get any more official than that! Quiddity99 22:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)Quiddity99

I've reformatted the current references to hopefully be more in tune to your standards. If you still are going to complain, please explain yourself in detail, line by line this time. This argument isn't going anywhere until that happens. Thank you. Quiddity99 23:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)Quiddity99
 * Please read WP:CIVIL and refrain from personal comments or attacks. See No personal attacks. The article is still heavily and extremely biased (as if claiming the nature of these works are supposedly downbeat or negative, therefore holding such opinions is still a person's point of view, and as such the neutrality will still continue to be disputed - see Neutrality)) and giving references from magazines or articles will not still not change the fact that the article has to be cleaned up and contains biased and speculative statements. Unfortunately, if you just insist on removing the tags, the article will still not be improved. One's personal point of view should not be the basis of adding information in articles. Ganryuu   ( talk ) 14:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * To further illustrate my point, take these sentences, for example: "the people from Atlantis were so evil", "was given the nickname" (this is not a nickname, but an allegation by certain magazine sources; Tomino himself has never referred to himself by this title, so this therefore cannot be name referred to him in the entry) "next true kill em all show" (the words "kill em all" appears several times during the article without any quotation marks, as if the article claims to supplements the validity of this allegation, again a point of view (POV). Articles should mantain neutrality, instead of supplementing a particular point of view.), "every single character is brutally killed" (the word "brutal" itself is a POV statement), etc. Even the section admittedly refers to speculation, such as : "(It has been speculated that instead of being killed, the entire battle entourage was sent back to Byston Well to prevent further destruction on Earth.)" - this sentence should be therefore removed. If these adjectives and speculative content can be removed from the article and if this section can be rewritten to show a neutral point of view; during the beginning, for example, stating that a large number of his shows contained upbeat content as well, and that "[certain] sources have claimed...", and if the overall manual of the style be improved to featured article status; I think the article could come a long way - wouldn't that be improve and help? I'd happy to be help if I can in order to improve this section myself, but the tags can help other users to venture upon this section in order to improve it as well. Please understand that I have nothing against you, I'd just like to improve the article to featured status like any interested editor would. Ganryuu   ( talk ) 14:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I have attempted trying to cleanup and refurbish this article, in order to have it suit to encyclopedic standards. I decided to create a new section consisting of information about his overall career, including summarizing most of the earlier content in a more neutral point of view, as well as expanding on his most notable works and achievements. I believe this should help mantain Neutrality and improve the overall quality of the article as well. Ganryuu  ( talk ) 16:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ganryuu: Thank you for the cleanup. I too have nothing against you personally, but was becoming extremely frustrated with you refusing to even explain yourself until this point in time. Now that you have done that I believe we can move on and work together towards making this a better article. I'll take a look at your revisions later tonight, will make some of my own, and then hopefully that will settle this once and for all. Quiddity99 23:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Quiddity99

I've taken a look at the article, have some changes and other comments.

First off, a minor mistake, Gundam came out in 1979, not 1978. Also, I added a reference to the trilogy of Gundam compilation movies which were integral to the popularity that Gundam would eventually attain.

Stating that the vast majority of Tomino's shows are upbeat and positive throughout is basically doing the opposite of what you accuse me of doing, taking a POV and inserting too much opinion into the article. Would one call the Gundam franchise 'upbeat and positive'? Outside of ZZ Gundam, you'll find few who would agree with that claim until the series was taken from Tomino's control starting with the alternative universe series in 1994's G Gundam. Yet thats what you claim here, stating that Tomino's most well known and notable shows are his positive ones. Thats incorrect. Again, Tomino is most well known in the anime community for Gundam and the mass murder endings throughout the late 70's to early 90's which caused some to refer to him as 'Kill Em All Tomino'. Infact the Gundam franchise is historic and arguably most notable for turning the traditional 'upbeat, positive and flawless' mecha pilot on its head with Amuro Ray, who revolutionized the genre with a realistic teenage mecha pilot who argued with his commanding officer, featured immaturity, arrogance, and many other negative traits that were rare at the time. It's also extremely notable for showing a much more realistic war based show. Saying Tomino is most well known for being upbeat and positive goes against much of what was so revolutionary from Gundam. Likewise, the next two most well known Gundam entries from Tomino, Zeta Gundam and Char's Counterattack feature much of the cast dead at the end and are certainly are what you can call one of Tomino's darker productions. You later state that the majority of his characters survive in the majority of his shows. Again, this is incorrect. A more appropriate statement, and the one I've revised it with is the majority of his heroes survive. Even the shows that aren't well known for killing off the heroes kill a large percentage of the characters. Mobile Suit Gundam kills off all of the Zabis (except for Mineva, a baby who would eventually reappear in Z and ZZ Gundam) as well as all the main officers and soldiers from Zeon who we come to know across the series. Heavy Metal L-Gaim kills off all the major and supporting characters of the Poseidal military (15+ major or supporting characters) with the exception of one who is taken captive and two whose final fate is unknown.

Umi no Triton is not considered the start of Tomino's "Kill Em All" phase, although it is notable for being more mature and dark than other animes that came out at the time. As my references for that show will not be available to me until the weekend, I'm going to have to hold off on adjusting that statement.

Regarding Ideon, every single character is killed, not the vast majority, so I've corrected that. That paragraph left out Dunbine entirely, implying that L-Gaim followed Xabungle, so I've entered refences to Dunbine as well.

I struggle with the L-Gaim comments. L-Gaim is lighthearted and upbeat in comparison with some of Tomino's darker shows, in particular Ideon, Dunbine and Zeta Gundam. Then again, it isn't anywhere on the level of a Xabungle or ZZ Gundam when it comes to being lighthearted. The ending for example features the main character abandoning all his friends and colleagues to take care of his brain damaged sister. In comparison to the shows that sandwich it, Dunbine and Zeta Gundam, you can certainly say its more upbeat than them, as all of the heroes end up surviving, where very few did in those shows. But to call it a lighthearted show... I just don't know, that's something I'll have to come back to.

Regarding Char's Counterattack, first I've edited the 'OVA' reference to 'motion picture'. Second, the statement that some of the protagonists die and most survive is incorrect. Its the other way around. Amuro, Char, Quess, Gyunei, and Chan all die. Bright and Hathaway make it out alive (Hathaway ends up later getting executed on his father's orders in one of Tomino's Gundam novelizations). I've changed the wording around to reflect this.

Overall I am happy with most of the changes you've made but with the statement that Tomino's most well known and notable shows are his upbeat and positive ones, I must ask, how many and which of Tomino's shows have you actually seen? Quiddity99 01:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)Quiddity99

Occasional Readers Wiewpoint
I just wished to put a comment, since I came to this page as an occasional visitor looking for a biography of Tomino. I happened to access the discussion page, precisely because, while I was reading the article (I did not notice the tags) I read so many times about this issue of "killing" or "survival" of the characters that I had the impression it was the only issue that it was wished to underline in Yoshiyuki Tomino's work. Now, I'm not questioning whether this is important or not, to say, but the article stresses so much this aspect, which seems to me even misleading when evaluating the quality of a story as a whole, that I felt I was not getting information, but that I was witnessing a sort of impartial "trial" of the artist. I apologize if my English is not so good (I am Italian), but I hope this "outsider" impression could be of some value to improve the article's quality, giving maybe more information on the setting of the different series instead of this repetitious talk. In Italy we have had just Gundam, and I wished to know more in general. Piccic 20:23, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you completely, and I too feel that these issues brought up against Tomino, which you mentioned, are completely overblown, overly-stressed, biased, and most certainly breaks Wikipedia's policy of neutrality. I also completely agree with your analogy that it sounds like an impartial trial. Previously, the content was even more overly biased and inflammatory, so I attempted to remove it completely, as it was unreferenced, non-notable, unfounded and biased, but my cleanup was opposed by one or two users, as you can see above. As detailed on Neutral point of view (WP:NPOV): "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by a reliable source." and "NPOV requires views to be represented without bias. " - this must be implemented in the article. ··· 巌流 ? · Talk to Gan ryuu 09:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I know Ganryuu will be surprised by this statement, but I would agree with the notion that too much of the article deals with his 'Kill Em All' notoriety. But the problem relating to that is not that there's too much discussion of his 'Kill Em All' shows, but that there's not enough discussion of his other work and the other things he's so well known for.  I don't think a single thing from the current article should be removed.  But certainly a lot more information can be added to this article.  In particular a detailed discussion of Gundam, which he is the most well known for (even more than the fact that so many die in his shows).  What I'd prefer to see is to remove the 'Kill Em All' discussion out of the Career area entirely and put it off into its own subsection.  The same with Gundam's impact.  So perhaps instead of the current format, which is mostly the 'Kill Em All' argument, we could have three main sections, one dedicated to discussing his entire career in detail, one section dedicated to Gundam and its impact, and one section dedicated to the 'Kill Em All' discussion. So if someone wants to help with an expansion of this article, I certainly would welcome it!  I continue to disagree considerably with Ganryuu's opinion (and would say that even he has put his own point of view in this article with comments like "The vast majority of Tomino's shows are upbeat and positive", which shows a lack of knowledge with respect to Tomino's work), but if he or anyone else wants to work on an expansion of this article without removing or vandalizing the current material, I would certainly welcome it!  Busy this week, so I don't know whether I'll have a chance myself to expand on things til the weekend. Quiddity99 23:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Quiddity99


 * I agree with Quiddity. Searching for the Japanese nickname (皆殺しの富野) brings up many references in regular online columns (reliable sources) as well as a plethora of discussions on the topic in blogs, forums, and other community noticeboards. Discussing this in in the article does not in the least violate WP:BL as this nickname is not a statement about Tomino, but rather an observation of his body of work. I've added two Japanese references about this. I think the best course would be to expand the discussion of his other works (perhaps separate sections with summaries of the work articles and links to the main article on each series). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 03:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've revamped some of the article to expand on some of his works, in particular the original Gundam series in 1979. I've added subcategories in the career section as well.  I've also restored most of the edits Ganryuu has made, which had included deleting large portions of the article.  I understand your stance of trying to make this a 'non-biased' article Ganryuu, but the fact is many of your edits have resulted in inaccurate statements and the deletion of entire series like Dunbine and L-Gaim.  Rather than delete large portions of this article, why not assist in expanding the discussion of the content and impact of these shows?  That will do a much better job at making this article seem less biased than the current statements, which sound quite akward (although I still don't think its biased at all, Tomino is very well known for the large amount of death in his series, thats a fact and is not opinion at all).  Quiddity99 04:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)Quiddity99


 * Ganryuu's "viewpoint" deserves neither respect nor consideration; continue to revert any edits he makes until he gives up. It's obvious that he is clueless about Tomino and his reputation, and refuses to accept any sources provided.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.45.200 (talk) 22:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I still think the article is not adequately written. I think it’s the general setup, somehow it seems to me there is a tendency to underline superficial aspects, while a thorough substantial critical approach is missins; and I don't think it adds anything to actual criticism the stressing of that "kill 'em all" line (which sounds also funny to my italian ears)… :) Piccic (talk) 20:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Spoiler Alerts
There needs to be spoiler alerts in this webpage. Major plot points being spoken about without warning is exceedingly rude, especially since it is not expected that such should be revealed in a discussion about the man himself and his works briefly.24.239.162.211 06:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)Anonymous

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