Talk:Zangezur Mountains

Azerbaijan
This is a mountain range on the border of Armenia and Azerbaijan and a large chunk of it falls in Azerbaijan. What's your rationale for not wanting the Azerbaijani translation? — CuriousGolden (T·C)  10:02, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Could you stop edit-warring and actually engage in this discussion? The "status quo" version was the Azerbaijani name in front before you started to change it, so your edits are just disruptive at this point. — CuriousGolden (T·C)  14:30, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Armenia
I already replied to you at your page and no, the Status Quo as you mentioned yourself was the Armenian version before you added the Azeri translation. I'm preserving the status quo, adding the Azeri translation after not before the Armenian, just how the page was created. You are outright being ridiculous at this point, refusing the accept the fact that the page was created with the Armenian name hence it being the Status Quo.
 * The last stable version
 * The first version of the article didn't have any translations. When I added the Azerbaijani translation, there was no Armenian translation (edit). It was added later by an IP, so no, Azerbaijani translation was always the first and if you keep on edit-warring over it you will have yet another block. — CuriousGolden (T·C)  18:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * If there weren't any translations in Status Quo, then don't add in the English wiki version of this page any of them. Both translations should be deleted. What's your opinion? Also don't leave messages on my page, use talk here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZaniGiovanni (talk • contribs) 18:20, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense. Translations are helpful for readers. Not sure if you would've suggested the same thing if the Armenian translation was added first.. — Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 18:23, 21 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I don’t think you genuinely care about the Stable version or status quo of the page as evident in the talk section, putting Az project first even tho here, Armenian was always the first until you added and put Az before it. When it comes to the article tho, Armenian editor who created the page didn’t seem to add the Arm translation, so thinking about it again, I don’t believe you can just randomly come add Az translation and claim “Stable version” with it. Would like an input from more experienced editors or admins, genuinely curious. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:07, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Not sure what makes you think the page creator was Armenian, not like that's relevant. And are you saying that we can't add translations to a page? lol — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 19:27, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Me saying that you adding the translations and claiming “stable version” while the page being created with Arm wikiProject inclusion (my claim for the creator being Armenian could've been from another country sure I guess), and you arrive to the conclusion that what I said means you can’t add translations? “lol”. I think you claiming “stable version” just cause the guy creating the page didn’t thought to add Armenian next to it is a little weird tbh. Again would like an input from an experienced editor on this. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:36, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure you just don't like the fact that Azerbaijani translation was added before the Armenian translation, but sure. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 19:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Damn, who would've thought lmao. Its not a matter of “liking” if you actually read what I wrote. My assumption, as the page was with wikiProject Arm first, is that the Status Quo would be the Armenian translation. And seeing your edit history, it was possible this just being a POV push on your part. Also the reason why I mention for a admin input, as Im still not convinced adding translations years later and claiming “Stable version” with it is according to the rules of wikipedia. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:47, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Your assumption makes no sense, how does WikiProject Armenia being added to the talk page first have anything to do with the Armenian translation in the article lead? Avoid casting WP:ASPERSIONS by claiming POV as that can get you blocked. No one needs to convince you as there's already a Wikipedia policy, called WP:ONUS which states that the version before the start of the dispute should be kept. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 19:51, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi CuriousGolden, I can find at least two objective reasons why it should be the other way around. First one is alphabetical order Ar vs Az.

Second one:

Zangezur Mountains where they cover more than 20% of the territory of Armenian Syunik province and reach an elevation of 2,200-2,400 m (4,000 feet).

vs

In the Nakhchivan exclave of Azerbaijan, the mountains are included within the Zangezur National Park, located in the north of Ordubad District.


 * Syunik Province is 4,506 km2: more than 20% of that makes more than 901,2 km2.
 * The entire Zangezur National Park: 427.97 km2.

Is your version due to personal subjective preferences, or you have objective reasons for that? tks. Hemşinli çocuk 04:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input, your reasoning seems logical. I’ll tag CuriousGolden so he can reply.


 * There's no rule stating that translations should be organised based on alphabetical order or what country mountains fall more in (which is quite a bizarre reason). This is a pretty petty dispute and I'm simply following the WP:ONUS and keeping the version that was there before a dispute. Not sure what you plan on achieving by switching places of translations. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 08:35, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * There is no WP:ONUS here that is being followed. The translations were an addition introduced 12 days ago; This addition apparently is in dispute. The version before the dispute had no translations at all. Maidyouneed (talk) 09:44, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * It is quite odd that the guy who keeps adding Az translations to foreign country territories cause they have Az migrant/ethnic population, says reorder of translations is “petty”. I’m going to give you one single example. If hypothetically Baku had an Armenian majority population in the current year (it had from like 1910-50s) would you be ok if the translation next to the English one was the Armenain, then Azeri? Most likely no, and you would be the first one to change it. Same way I said this reasoning made sense by, as the mountain range’s majority area is on Armenia territory. You going around adding Az translations do Dagestani district, cause majority population there being Az, and claiming others being “petty” for reordering translations is quite hilarious. Same way if any Armenian went and added Arm translation to Glendale, US wiki’s page, or black ethnicity ppl went and added the local African country name (where majority are from) for Atlanta, Georgia, or many NY cities who have large Italian ethnic population, etc. I tried to explain this concept to you, but you hyper focused on my two words which got me blocked. Thinking abt it again, I shouldn’t have called your actions “stupid and obnoxious”, perhaps now you would analyze this argument in your mind. if it isn’t hard for you, pls tag an admin. I’m very new to wiki and would like to hear their opinion.
 * Your whole comment is just a big WP:OTHER (some of which are repeated points from the harassing paragraph you got banned for a week ago). Focus on this article, not unrelated village articles. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 09:34, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The whole comment was coming to the point that majority argument made sense as you have done the same yourself even in foreign territories as given by example. The insults part was only one sentence, which I literally mentioned I shouldn’t have done. What are you on about, And what are these blocking threats coming from you? Read again for a second as my examples are very relevant to the discussion and they carry same reasoning from you for that edits. On top of that, I tried to show that you even do this in foreign country territories whereas here, the area is shared between Az and Arm and majority being in Arm. I’m not gonna tolerate your senseless blocking threats again. If you are not gonna answer my points and engage in this non constructive threatening dialogue, you’ll be reported.
 * How is adding a translation to an ethnic village same as you trying to switch places of a translation in an attempt to glorify one over the other. You weren't banned just for the 2 words you mentioned (even though it was part of the reason), your whole comment was WP:HARASSMENT and WP:ASPERSIONS, which you're continuing to do. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 09:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? My comment was an analogy, I didn’t even mention Glendale in the message that got me blocked. What so now I can’t even make arguments based on analogies cause a similar paragraph with bad wording resulted in a block? Again analogies you don’t like doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be mentioned. Nothing I said in my comment is block worthy, whereas the actual block which happened week ago definitely contained sentences which were.


 * I’m tagging you as I myself am very new to wiki and saw you editing Arm/Az related pages. I would’ve liked an input from an admin regarding this dispute. If it isn’t hard for you, pls tag one.
 * Please avoid WP:CANVASSING as it could lead to a ban. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 09:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Again with blocking threats. I’m asking for more experienced editors to tag admins nothing more. There isn’t a request for “canvassing” as I even mention the sole reason for tagging them. If asking for editors to tag admins is forbidden by rules I won’t do it.
 * You've already asked one person, pinging people for the sole reason for them to ping other people isn't really helpful. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 10:09, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I can understand your point regarding pings, but I’m also very new here. Just don’t threaten with blocking attempts again when there aren’t any reasons for that, it isn’t helpful and it breaks wikipedia rules.
 * "Canvassing could lead to a ban" isn't a threat of blocking, it's a fact. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 10:19, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

You claim I’m asking for canvassing when in fact I just asked for admin ping as I myself being new couldn’t do it. THAT is the difference ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:25, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

While I don't really think that me being pinged and asked to ping an admin to help clear up the issue truly corresponds to canvassing, I'll excuse myself from the discussion nevertheless, but I'll ping that was involved in the dispute between you guys earlier with the hopes that he can give you guys some pointers on how to move forward. AntonSamuel (talk) 10:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * El_C let me know that he is not available for providing input, so I thought I'd ping instead, and ask if you have the time to take a look at the discussion and provide some input for the editors on how to proceed? AntonSamuel (talk) 15:13, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

thanks a lot for pinging an admin, the reason I was asking for more experienced editor. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:06, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi CuriousGolden, I hope you don't mind I answer you here, you have cited the rules that stat: The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. You are implying that no immediate revert means it is not disputed content when you could not have ignored that your changes were controversial.

You stat that which is quite a bizarre reason... alphabetical order and measures are objective reasons. It's better than claiming I did the change first.

To that, I could add, that google map places the peak of Mount Kaputjugh (the highest peak of Zangezour mountainous region) inside Armenia. As a side note, you have edited Mounth Kaputjugh to remove that information and switched the order of the languages. Hemşinli çocuk 15:01, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Adding an Azerbaijani translation to a mountain range in Azerbaijan isn't "controversial". User ZaniGiovanni first tried to remove the Azerbaijani name and any mention of Azerbaijan completely (and edit-warred over it by claiming I'm a one-purpose account), then when confronted, started trying to change the place of the translations claiming Azerbaijani translation was added later (and long edit warred over this and was even reported for it) and when confronted again, is arguing for deletion of both names.
 * Bringing down the whole argument to one sentence isn't going to help your case. The fact of the matter is that the Azerbaijani name was added, later the user tried to remove it and then switch its places, seemingly in an attempt to minimize the Azerbaijani translation. That's what I'm against.
 * You do realize that Google Maps isn't step-to-step detailed. Regardless, the article is about the mountain, not the peak. If you have doubts that the mountain isn't only in Armenia, then please do state so. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 15:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi CuriousGolden, where, how and when did I write or even imply that adding Azerbaijani translation was controversial? My point was that, since:
 * You do realize that Google Maps isn't step-to-step detailed. Regardless, the article is about the mountain, not the peak. If you have doubts that the mountain isn't only in Armenia, then please do state so. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 15:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi CuriousGolden, where, how and when did I write or even imply that adding Azerbaijani translation was controversial? My point was that, since:


 * Most of the region lies inside Armenia
 * That highest peaks lies inside Armenia (it's an article on Zangezur Mountains).
 * And that from alphabetical order r comes before z.


 * Armenian translation comes first.


 * Regarding Google maps, check the satellite picture provided on google map... there is significant distance between the peak of the mountain AND the border, besides there are various apps, including World Topo Map today, the issue should be easy to settle. Still, you did those controversial changes on the highest mountain without ever providing any rational to that. Hemşinli çocuk 15:56, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * To be honest, I do not really understand the problem. The range / historical area is located both in Armenia and Azerbaijan, but not in Turkey, right?--Ymblanter (talk) 15:26, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , yes. It's a mountain range forming the eastern border of the Nakhchivan exclave of Azerbaijan and western border of the Syunik province of Armenia I'll give a brief summary of the dispute: The Azerbaijani translation was added to the page a few months ago when there were no translations on the page before. And a few weeks after, another user added the Armenian translation and now some users want the Armenian translation to appear before the Azerbaijani translation. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 15:30, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this the problem, or does anybody think that Zangezur is not part of Armenia or Azerbaijan?--Ymblanter (talk) 15:33, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "Zangezur" is a historic region, while this is the geographic Zangezur mountains. I don't think anyone here is disputing that the mountain range falls in both Azerbaijan and Armenia. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 15:35, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Then I suggest the following course of action:
 * Go to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style and ask if there is a geographic object which is split between two countries with identifiable language each, which language is given first in the lede (preferably do not mention Armenia or Azerbaijan, otherwise nob0ody would respond);
 * Do not canvass any editors there, because otherwise again no uninvolved editor would respond, and we stay at the same point we are now;
 * If there is consensus (preferably citing a policy / guideline / RfC / best practices) accept this consensus and follow the suggested order;
 * If there is no consensus or nobody responds or the discussion is polluted by canvassing so that it is not possible to determine consensus it will be alphabetic order (which in this case means Armenian first, Azerbaijani second; note that I imposed quite a lot of this staff in the Russian Wikipedia where the alphabetic order is the opposite).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:43, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help! — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 15:49, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. Firstly, I edited out the Az section, but I added it back when I was informed about the mountain range being in both countries territories. When it comes to the translations order, there is a good argument made by another editor in the talk page that the majority of the mountain range is on Armenia territory, hence first should come the Armenian translation. But I see your suggestion to ask Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style and CuriousGolden already asked. He didn’t mention that one country has majority of the range in it’s territory tho. Should I add that fact too, without naming the countries as you said? --ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:56, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not think it is needed for the time being. If the size is relevant, and this is codified somewhere, someone will come up with some answer.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:44, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I asked there the general question of based on what the order should be. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Ymblanter. It's been couple days and there doesn't seem to be responses in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style about our question. Should we proceed with the alphabetical order then? --ZaniGiovanni (talk) 09:02, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It's been 2 days. Give it at least a week before we proceed to do anything. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 09:02, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Consensus reached for the alphabetical order, agreed by the admin to proceed with the the edit.--ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:15, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reorder Curious, dude you're fast to edit tho lol.--ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:17, 26 March 2021 (UTC)