Template talk:Campaignbox Campaigns of Cyrus the Great

Great I got it
Great, I got it.--Ariobarza (talk) 12:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk

Seige of Ecbatana
Your article on the siege was I think correctly deleted, since there was no text, only a template. The series of articles on individual battles are mostly almost as devoid of text, but they are not stubs as essentally nothing more is known. Wars of Cyrus the Great currently redirects to Cyrus the Great. The essential problem is that in each case the little that is known comes from a single sentence (or a paragraph) in an ancient author. However, the articles usually cite no sources. If there is more to be said than appears in the article on Cyrus the Great, I would strongly suggest that all the battle articles should be merged into a single one, with full references to the ancient authors and a brief coverage of any modern critical comment. This would provide one substantial article on the subject, rather than a mass of minute ones. Peterkingiron (talk) 10:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is exactly what I think needs to be done. At the moment we have a number of articles with a tiny amount of text largely because there just isn't much more in the sources. Most of these can go in the Persian Revolt article which needs work since I stripped out the text copied from Rawlinson's mid-19th century article. Doug Weller (talk) 18:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

HOLD ON
Hi, last time I made a big statement on why not to delete Siege of Ecbatana, go on the page where people discuss if it should be deleted or not, and I wrote and gave some sources and other info to how it nearly resembles the Siege of the Sogdian Rock in Alexanders battles, which the Sogdians just surrendered to him, and no actual fighting to place, I think the issue of how some users pay less attention or ignore the issues I raise on Wikipedia should be addressed to the administraters. More and more users are flip flopping, or deleting or merging articles when other articles are worse, and not paying attention to the other articles(like siege of the sogdian rock) that need more attention than the Persian Revolt. Like I said to Dougweller and Pepperkingiron, I need almost 2 weeks of sourcing and expanding my articles. But it seems that no one cares. There was 7/11 people that were in favor of either KEEPING OR RENAMING the Siege of Ecbatana. But it got deleted. AND IT DID HAVE SOME TEXT, AND PROMISED TO BE EXPANDED UPON WHEN DELETED! And the other articles that I have created in the Persian Revolt have allot of info I can get on the net. So I pray you and other users give a little bit more thought before DESTROYING my work!--Ariobarza (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk


 * It was not a vote. And I am sure that there are worse articles that should also be deleted, but that is never an acceptable argument to keep (sometimes that argument is called WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS). There is a lot more information on Sogdian rock than for this, although I agree it is not a siege. {anonymous comment, apparently]

Notes to myself(Ignore Ariobarza's writings here, but your welcomed to read them)

 * Permenantly delete Siege of Ecbatana.


 * Cyrus made war upon the Bactrian's, obtaining a Tactically indecisive; Strategic Persian victory. But that when the Bactrian’s learned that Astyages had been adopted by Cyrus as his grandfather, and Amytis of Media as his supposed aunt turned wife, but they had no children together. They officially and voluntarily submitted to Cyrus.


 * Cyrus made war on the Saka, and in the first battle or first phase of battle took prisoner their king Amorges, the husband of Sparethra, who after her husband was captured collected an army of 300,000 men and 200,000 women, made war upon Cyrus, which his army had light casualties as compared to the minimal casualties of the Saka, and may have defeated him. Amongst the large number of prisoners taken by the Saka were Parmises, the brother of Amytis, and his three sons, who were subsequently released in exchange for Amorges. Cyrus's well treatment of Amorges prompt the Saka to immediately submit to the Persians at the time of the battle, which is recognized as a Tactical Amyrgian victory; Strategic Persian victory. Amorges or Thambradas went with Cyrus to Lydia. It must be noted, Herodotus’ version of Cyrus's death may be the plagiarized version of this account by Ctesias.
 * Cyrus succeeded in a battle in the capital of Arachosia, or Kandahar, or Kapisa, one or all it might be.
 * Cyrus penetrated Gedrosia in 545 BC/535 BC? With maybe 250,000 to 500,000 men and half were likely civilians with the army. And, 3/4 were lost, or perished in the desert. This is when Kapisa in 543 BC/533 BC might have been besieged. Cyrus may have taken another route when reaching Pura, the capital of the province with his companion cavalry numbering about ten, which only seven survived, just like Alexander the Great had, this may have also been the reason the army and or civilians were lost or perished. Cyrus has to give up campaign due to high loses of life and pleading army before any battle is fought, and return home through a northern route for 535 BC, and if the expedition took place in 545 BC he as said on livius.org, might have built ships and sent ambassadors to Taxila in India, which he sailed home through the Indus, and down to the Arabian Sea, and thus reaching the Persian Gulf. Then through that conquering Maka and Dilmuna and coming home.
 * Cyrus may have been in the north and gone to his final battle or may have started fresh from home. Cyrus marched against the Derbices, whose king was Amoraeus, assisted with Dahae archers, and Massagatae cavalry. They were part of a Southeastern Scythian Confederation who hired Indian mercenary troops that were against Cyrus, so they would make raids or finally invade Persia. The Massagetae were then governed by a queen who was a widow and who's name was Tomyris, Cyrus sent ambassadors to her with overtures of marriage the queen concluding that his real object was the possession not of her person but her kingdom forbade his approach Cyrus on finding these measures ineffectual advanced to the Jaxartes openly discovering his hostile designs upon the Massagetae He then threw a bridge of boats over the river for the passage of his forces which he also fortified with turrets Whilst he was engaged in this difficult undertaking, Tomyris sent her ambassadors with a message. Cyrus called a council of his principal officers and laying the matter before them desired their advice how to act. They were unanimously of opinion that he should retire and wait for Tomyris in his own dominions, Croesus who assisted at the meeting was of a different sentiment which he defended, and that was to fight on the Scythian side of the river, and to leave the weakest in the camp with Persian delicacies therefore be left behind and that there be abundance of food prepared at costly viands and flowing goblets of wine. Then with the rest again retire towards the river, and wait to ambush them. The result of the debate was that Cyrus preferred the sentiments of Croesus, which he therefore returned for answer to Tomyris that he would advance the space into her dominions, which she had proposed she was faithful to her engagement. Cyrus sent Cambyses and Croesus home. Then at night had a dream that the eldest son of Hystaspes having wings upon his shoulders one of which overshadowed Asia the other Europe, Hystaspes was the son of Arsames of Persia the family of the Achaemenidae the name of his eldest son was Darius a youth of about twenty. He sent for Hystaspes to his presence and dismissing his attendants Hystaspes said he will study his son if he should try to take the throne, then he went home. Cyrus advancing a day's march from the Jaxartes followed in all respects the counsel of Croesus and leaving behind him the troops upon which he had less dependence he returned with his choicest men towards the river. A detachment of about the third part of the army of the Massagatae attacked the Persians whom Cyrus had left and after a feeble conflict put them to the sword. When the slaughter ceased they observed the luxuries which had artfully been prepared and yielding to the allurement they indulged themselves in feasting and wine till drunkenness and sleep overcame them. In this situation the Persians attacked them, several were slain but the greater part or 2/3 of them were made prisoners, among who was Spargapises their leader that was the son of Tomyris, which the battle became a Persian victory. As soon as the queen heard of the defeat of her forces and the capture of her son she dispatched a messenger to Cyrus with a warning to let him go. Her son committed suicide upon being released out of his chains for comfort. When Tomyris found out her son was dead, she collected all her forces and attacked. They both showered each other with arrows, then the Derbices infantry were engaged, and the Massagatae led their cavalry to make shock attacks. Finally the battle became the most brutal in the ancient world, as looking like there was no end to it, the Scythians got the upper hand, the Derbices suddenly brought up some elephants which had been kept in ambush, and put Cyrus' cavalry to flight. Cyrus himself fell from his horse, and an Indian wounded him mortally with a javelin under the thigh and or the liver. The Indians fought on the side of the Derbices and supplied them with elephants. Cyrus's friends took him up while he was still alive and returned to camp. Many Persians and Derbices were slain, to the number of 10,000 on each side. The Persians managed to stay in the area for allies to arrive. And may have witnessed Tomyris trying to crucify and behead a Cyrus impersonator, which the account was told to Herodotus, and the Persians had heavy casualties, with the Massagatae had light. So the battle became a Tactically inconclusive; Strategic Persian victory. Amorges, when he heard of what had happened to Cyrus, in great haste went to the assistance of the Persians with 20,000 Sakan cavalry. In a subsequent engagement, the Persians and Saka gained a brilliant Persian victory, Amoraeus, the king of the Derbices, and his two sons being slain. 30,000 Derbicans and 9,000 Persians fell in the battle. The Massagatae fled as their revenge was supposedly finished. And the Dahae, seeing they were not required to fight anymore retired to there own country, which the Indians also dispersed. The Derbices then submitted to Cyrus. Cyrus, when near his death in the capital of the province, not the Persis province, declared his elder son Cambyses, king. Cyrus's younger son Smerdis governor of Bactria, Chorasmia, Parthia, and Carmania, free from tribute, but still under Persian control. Of the children of Spitamas, he appointed Spitaces satrap of the Derbices, Megabernes of the Paricanians, bidding them obey their mother in everything. He also endeavored to make them friends with Amorges, bestowing his blessing on those who should remain on friendly terms with one another, and a curse upon those who first did wrong. (THIS LAST SENTENCE MAY CONTAIN AN IMPORTANT CLUE TO WHY THE WAR AGAINST THE SCYTHIANS BEGAN IN THE FIRST PLACE). With these words, he died in a state of glory, three days after he had been wounded, after a reign of 30 years.--Ariobarza (talk) 07:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk
 * Should not use this page as a sandbox. Left typo in Heading in place. Leprof 7272 (talk) 18:24, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think he besieged Kandahar which was only a tiny fortress named Mundijak, Cyrus besieged Kapisa before conquering Babylon but he did besiege Samarkand after conquering Babylon. The description of events against the Masagetae is well done. I was going to write all of this but now I don't have to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cauca50 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Tigris
Ariobarza, I've found no sources that refer to or discuss any "Battle of the Tigris" in 539 BC. As has already discussed on Talk:Battle of Opis, your contentions about this are original research and therefore can't be included. It's not possible to write an article about this mythical battle without engaging in systematic original research. Please bear in mind that Wikipedia is not a place to publish your own thoughts and analyses or to publish new information not previously published. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Why don't we add his last campaign against the Scythians to this Template?Ti2008 (talk) 09:15, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Recommendation
Not a user(but thinking of joining) here but knowing a bit of history I think this whole template should be revised. The battles and contents are bit confusing and maybe if the statements are corrected more people would be interested to edit here. I agree with the last columnn stating that we should add Cyrus's last campaign. However, we should begin with the battles already created for him, including reviewing the biography page for corrections.

I see a lot of potential and I'm a huge fan of Greek-Persian relations, so maybe if some users are interested to help, or form a group, like this ],] who can focus there efforts here? Please respond! expanding is good.--153.18.25.162 (talk) 01:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * At the end of the conquest of Babylon Cyrus defeated the remnants of Babylon and Arab allies with his own Arab allies at the Babylonian Oasis city of Teima. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cauca50 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Reversion without explanation nor attempt to discuss

 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ACampaignbox_Campaigns_of_Cyrus_the_Great&diff=641575051&oldid=641506630
 * (You still don't seem to understand the concept of WP:BRD; discuss on talk page before reinstating edits. Burden of gaining consensus is yours.)


 * You still don't seem to understand the concept of WP:BRD; the burden is on the reverter to explain their reversion and, thereby, open a discussion. Please begin. Sardanaphalus (talk) 20:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Eh... no, it's quite the opposite. It is the change that requires consensus, period. BRD does not state who needs to start the discussion. But since you 'asked': your layout does not improve the overall look of the template; it adds too much whitespace to the left, which may trigger unwanted linbreaks. A firm principle in template coding (and certainly in layout): Keep it simple.  23:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Is it your understanding that someone may, in a single click/action, revert an editor's contribution and the onus is then on that contributing editor not only to initiate a discussion but also find enough people to "vote in favo/ur" of the contribution?
 * "A firm principle ... : Keep it simple." Even if doing so is to the detriment of the template/information/etc's presentation..? Compare the visual centr/ers-of-gravity (and title alignment) in the following:


 * Sardanaphalus (talk) 09:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes. You just described the principle mechanism on which Wikipedia operates.
 * That is a matter of opinion. To me, the right example looks better, and not 'detrimental' at all. But what worries me more is the ammount of inline CSS you need for apparent little change. That is what I mean with "keep it simple".
 * 10:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I wondered if that was (the extent of) your interpretation.
 * The righthand example's title is (noticeably) mis-centrererd here. "Little" change or not, how can be such a problem..?
 * Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:59, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * It is micro-managing presentaion. Also, tabular data should not be centered.  00:29, 16 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Two more assertions. I have restored the title centering. Sardanaphalus (talk) 16:03, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

The cited reference, fully in Greek, is misplaced
The following appeared earlier here, as a citation for the "Battle of Pasargada[e]", this phrase which was which was red wiki-linked.

I pulled the Greek source, the citation for which was inaccurate and incomplete. An accurate statement of that source appears below.

I reviewed the Greek translation at the source, and found that the Greek text was corrupted by line breaks that split words, etc., and that the source did not end at a standard verse end for texts in transition. Clearly novice cut-and-paste.

More critically, I reviewed the English translation — original intent was to correct the source, citing a standard Loeb classic with both Greek and English, and swap in the English for the Greek (so the information could be read, and the Greek accessed).

The English translation made clear that this quoted Greek was essentially immaterial, directly, to the battle being cited. (Only by an editor's WP:OR could the following English be understood to refer to the battle/siege of Pasargadae, following the Battle of the Persian Border.) Morever, the best sources refer to that battle — which does not appear in WIkipedia, hence the red Wikilink — refer to the battle occurring after the Battle of the Persian border, rather, as as a siege. Hence, the wikilinks are removed, one source is added, a is added for the other, and the Greek is removed entirely — at least until someone can explain here why it was there in the first place.

The Greek, and its English, from Walter Miller in the Loeb Classical Library, are presented below.

Original footnote appearing:


 * Xenophon Hist., Cyropaedia Book 6, chapter 4, section 5, line 3 [ed. note: this was all of the citation give, which was traced through keywords in the Greek, to the following passage]

"ἐν δὲ τούτῳ ἡ Πάνθεια ἀποχωρῆσαι κελεύσασα τοὺς παρόντας πάντας ἔλεξεν· Ἀλλ' ὅτι μέν, ὦ Ἀβραδάτα, εἴ τις καὶ ἄλλη πώποτε γυνὴ τὸν ἑαυτῆς ἄνδρα μεῖζον τῆς αὑτῆς ψυχῆς ἐτίμησεν, οἶμαί σε γιγνώ- σκειν ὅτι καὶ ἐγὼ μία τούτων εἰμί. τί οὖν ἐμὲ δεῖ καθ' ἓν ἕκαστον λέγειν; τὰ γὰρ ἔργα οἶμαί σοι πιθανώτερα παρε- σχῆσθαι τῶν νῦν λεχθέντων λόγων. ὅμως δὲ οὕτως ἔχουσα πρὸς σὲ ὥσπερ σὺ οἶσθα, ἐπομνύω σοι τὴν ἐμὴν καὶ σὴν φιλίαν ἦ μὴν ἐγὼ βούλεσθαι ἂν μετὰ σοῦ ἀνδρὸς ἀγαθοῦ γενομένου κοινῇ γῆν ἐπιέσασθαι μᾶλλον ἢ ζῆν μετ' αἰσχυνο- μένου αἰσχυνομένη· οὕτως ἐγὼ καὶ σὲ τῶν καλλίστων καὶ ἐμαυτὴν ἠξίωκα. καὶ Κύρῳ δὲ μεγάλην τινὰ δοκῶ ἡμᾶς χάριν ὀφείλειν, ὅτι με αἰχμάλωτον γενομένην καὶ ἐξαι- ρεθεῖσαν αὑτῷ οὔτε ὡς δούλην ἠξίωσε κεκτῆσθαι οὔτε ὡς ἐλευθέραν ἐν ἀτίμῳ ὀνόματι, διεφύλαξε δὲ σοὶ ὥσπερ ἀδελφοῦ γυναῖκα λαβών. πρὸς δὲ καὶ ὅτε Ἀράσπας ἀπέστη αὐτοῦ ὁ ἐμὲ φυλάττων, ὑπεσχόμην αὐτῷ, εἴ με ἐάσειε πρὸς"

Translation of this passage, through th the end of the relevant verse:


 * Xenophon (1914) [ca. 350 BCE], Cyropaedia, Vol. 2, Books 5-8 (Bk. 6, vss. 5-8), pp. 192-195, Walter Miller, transl. (Loeb Classical Library 52, Xenophon Volume VI), DOI 10.4159/DLCL.xenophon_athens-cyropaedia.1914, ISBN 9780674990586, Cambridge, MA, USA: Harvard University Press, see, accessed 17 October 2015.

"[5] But at this moment Panthea bade all who stood near to retire and then she said: “Abradatas, if ever any she exhorts him to bravery woman loved her husband more than her own life, I think you know that I, too, am such a one. Why, then, should I tell of these things one by one? For I think that my conduct has given you better proof of. [6] Still, with the affection that you know I have for you, I swear to you by my love for you and yours for me that, of a truth, I would far rather go down into the earth with you, if you approve yourself a gallant soldier, than live disgraced with one disgraced: so worthy of the noblest lot have I deemed both you and myself. [7] And to Cyrus I think we owe a very large debt of gratitude, because, when I was his prisoner and allotted to him, he did not choose to keep me either as his slave or as a freewoman under a dishonourable name, but took me and kept me for you as one would a brother’s wife. [8] And then, too, when Araspas, who had been charged with my keeping, deserted him, I promised him that if he would let me send to you, a far better and truer friend than Araspas would come to him, in you."

All from me on this. Reversion without explanation will bring a firestorm. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:58, 17 October 2015 (UTC)