Template talk:Hiberno-English

Flag
Notice to editors: discussions ar also ongoing about the flags at Template talk:British English and Template talk:American English. ~Asarlaí 16:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I propose removing the saltire flag from this template. The St. Patrick's Saltire is as insulting to those down South as the tricolour is to those up North. The St. Patrick's Saltire is an entirely British flag and as such does not represent the views of the majority of this island, i.e. the majority of the speakers of Hiberno-English. I propose a simple outline of the island of Ireland be used instead. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  13:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with the replacement of flags where their use is only indirectly related to the subject. They often have 'contested meanings'. The island outline seems fine unless someone has a better alternative. RashersTierney (talk) 13:15, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No flags are best, however MacTire02 very selective and misinformed opinion you've got there. Where's the proof that the St. Patrick's Saltire is an entirely British flag? Just because it's used in the Union Flag, by the Irish regiments of the British army, and the PSNI doesn't make it a British creation. Just because republicans take offense because its associated with the British army's Irish regiments doesn't mean its a British creation.
 * There is evidence it most likely originated from a Hiberno-Norman family, and even then what about the so called Gaelic Ulster flag? Its a Hiberno-Norman creation as well - but does that make it a purely British creation that doesn't represent the majority of Hiberno-English speakers in Ulster? Hardly seeing as Irish republicans love flying the flag despite the fact it was created by the de Burghs who maintained strong links with the British monarchy. Oh the irony of ignorance and prejudice... Mabuska (talk) 16:21, 12 May 2011 (UTC)


 * It's a British creation because they are the ones who created it, the ones who used it in the past and the ones who use it today. The Irish did not and do not.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.126.19 (talk) 06:33, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually I do know where the flag comes from. I knew right well about the de Burgh connection with the flag of Ulster. But as a symbol of Ireland the St. Patrick's Saltire was introduced by contemporary British organisations in the late 18th century, although it was used briefly on the Commonwealth flag under Cromwell prior to that. But it was never accepted as a symbol of Ireland by the Gaelic population. It may have been designed to represent all of Ireland, but it didn't then, and it doesn't now. Regarding the Ulster flag, the traditional Ulster flag as a simple Red Hand on white background. White was the ancient war colour of the Gaels (which is partly why the County of Kildare uses white as their GAA colour) and the Red Hand of Ulster is associated with Labraid Lámderg who cut off his hand to lay claim to Ulster. There are more modern versions of the flag which carry a "bloodied St. Andrew's saltire" with the Red Hand emblazoned on it, together with the "Gaelic" red cross on an Or background, the Red Hand on the St. Patrick's Saltire, the Red Hand on the St. George's Saltire, etc. The connection between the flag and Ireland is a simple one - It represents St. Patrick, and as St. Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland, the logical conclusion would be that it also represents Ireland. But it is not accepted as a symbol of all of Ireland in much the same way that the tricolour is not recognised as a symbol of all of Ireland, no matter how much people in either camp wish it so. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  16:43, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As an aside, I do not describe myself as an Irish Republican. I am interested in the Irish language and I am interested in the history and the culture of the island, but I am also interested in the Ulster Scots language as well and believe that, as an entity, Northern Ireland has a heritage and culture quite distinct from that in the Republic. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  16:52, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Please don't think i'm trying to label you as that, i've no intention to. However inregards to the Ulster flag - the original (Gaelic if you will) ones has a yellow background not white. The yellow background with red cross was the heraldry of the de Burghs, who super-imposed the Red Hand onto it as obviously enough as it represented Ulster where they had been made the earls of. Thougn i've yet to see a Red Hand super-imposed on a St. Patrick's saltire flag.
 * However regardless of whether it was widely accepted by the majority of the population, doesn't mean that it couldn't be official in anyway if it ever was. Several continental sources use the flag to represent Ireland. Whilst CAIN may describe it as being a British creation from the 17th century, evidence shows it predates that. In 1467 Gerald Fitzgerald VIII was accused of flying his standard "teasonably" from Carlow Castle - that flag was a white flag with red saltire, though Saint_Patrick's_Flag ignores this, but states its depiction in the 1480s. The coat of arms for Cork and Enniskillen predate the Order of St. Patrick. Its history and origin are confused - however the flag whatever it meant is very old. Mabuska (talk) 22:06, 12 May 2011 (UTC) Mabuska (talk) 22:06, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Guys, this is all very interesting, but we seem to be wandering away from the proposal.RashersTierney (talk) 23:13, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed it is. Though whilst i still disagree with MacTire's take on the flag as there is so much showing contrary to it, i don't see a problem in using the St. Patrick's saltire to represent Ireland, seeing as the saint is associated with Ireland and that flag has represented Ireland in the past before its adoption into the Union Flag. If it is such an issue then remove all flags. Mabuska (talk) 23:23, 12 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't think you were trying to label me as anything, I just thought it best to mention it before the conversation went any further. The harp has represented Ireland for even longer though (even if the St. Patrick's saltire predates the harp on green background). I never really disputed the age of the St. Patrick's saltire - what I was talking about was its official use as representative of all of Ireland. Certainly it was used to represent various locations as well as dynasties in Ireland, but not as a political representation of the entire country. Regarding the Ulster flag, sources from various ancient texts talk about the banner of Ulster describing it as white with the Red Hand emblazoned on it. Indeed the modern Tyrone (GAA) arms portrays a simple red hand on white. The idea behind this is that the bloodied hand was wrapped in the war banner (always white in Gaelic war decoration) upon victory - hence the red hand on white. The gold was added later together with the red cross, and ironically dropped again in the Ulster banner which the nationalists now hate - even if it is closer to the original colours of the Gaels.
 * Anyway, leaving vexillology aside I feel it would be better to leave flags out altogether. They are an extremely divisive element in Ireland and do not add to the project. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  06:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I suggest getting rid of the template, since it serves no useful purpose. It's just something else to argue over. Hiberno-English is, I believe, just about identical to British English in the written word anyway. But, if we must have the template, then the flag of Saint Patrick is, in my view, entirely acceptable and we should stay with it. It encompasses most things that can be considered "Hiberno". LevenBoy (talk) 07:42, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * No it doesn't encompass most things "Hiberno". It ignores the views held by 4.5 million people on the island, the majority of speakers of Hiberno-English. Most people in the Republic would not even know what the St. Patrick's saltire is, never mind what it is supposed to represent. At the end of the day the tricolour is supposed to represent all Christian traditions on the island and the everlasting peace between them, but I'm not proposing it be used either as that would also be inflammatory. It is, however, as you say pretty much identical in the written word to British English anyway. The tricolour ignores the 1 million+ Unionist community in Ulster, the St. Patrick's saltire ignores the other 4.5 million (incl. Nationalists in Northern Ireland and the population in the Republic), the 4 provinces flag is made entirely of "Gaelic" colours (i.e. Flag of Ulster), the Union flag is entirely inaccurate, and it is even possible that a simple map of the island may also cause controversy for displaying/not displaying any boundary between NI and the RoI. At the end of the day I feel something more appropriate would be to use some sort of identifier that displays the difference, similar to Sswonk's proposal over at the British English template re. color vs. colour. What that may be I have no idea, perhaps taking something like the you/youse distinction? Or maybe even better still, no image at all. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  08:20, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

So much original research based on absolutely nothing with a lot of personal opinion and incorrect information.

Where does it state that the Irish tricolour represents all Christian traditions on Ireland? The Irish government states the green represents Gaelic Ireland and the orange represents the Orange tradition, with white being peace - and unless your going to stereotype all Gaels as Catholics your claim is very very wrong and misinformed.

This statement - "The gold was added later together with the red cross, and ironically dropped again in the Ulster banner which the nationalists now hate - even if it is closer to the original colours of the Gaels." and "the 4 provinces flag is made entirely of "Gaelic" colours (i.e. Flag of Ulster)" is still so wrong - i already explained to you that the origins of the yellow background and red cross Ulster flag - it was the heraldry of the de Burghs who had been made Earls of Ulster with the Red Hand superimposed - this is backed by reliable sources and earlier flags have no bearing on it. The white flag with a red cross used by unionists is based on the English flag with the Red Hand superimposed on it to signify Ulster. The dropping if you want to call it that of the yellow background flag by then represented the old Gaelic Ulster (especially as the de Burghs and co. had become gaelicised to various degrees and the fact nationalists and republicans had by then hijacked the Gaelic cultural revival for their political ends alienating unionists from it).

On the Red hand itself. Some myths claim it first being associated with Labraid Lámderg, however sources state that the Red Hand predates the Gaels, more than likely representing the old overkingdom of Ulaid which the Normans and Gaels conquered, or maybe even older. Makes perfect sense why the de Burghs and the Gaels of the Cenel Eoghain adopted the symbol as their own as it represented Ulster and would help strengthen their claims. Mabuska (talk) 10:52, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Are you just selectively reading my post or do you simply not understand what I have written? I already stated I agree with you about the origins of the Flag of Ulster coming from the superimposition of the red hand of Ulster onto a red cross with gold/yellow background. Tuigim é sin, ta mee toiggal eh shen, я понимаю то что вы писали. But the simple white flag, without any decoration apart from the Red Hand of Ulster existed prior to the de Burghs.
 * De Burgh arms.svg + O'Neill Clan.png = Flag of ulster.png


 * This Flag of Ulster was later politicised by the nationalist movement to represent the Nationalist population during the period of the Gaelic cultural revival which you rightly say was hijacked by them for their own political ends (and I am stressing here that I understand - it was around prior to that revival and used by the Royalist de Burghs).


 * I inserted the word "Gaelic" into quotation marks as, indeed, it is commonly interpreted as being Gaelic, even if this is not the case. That's why I put it in quotation marks. It was not for emphasis. Regarding the tricolour, yes it was devised to represent all Christian traditions (at a time when religion was extremely important - indeed it remained so even up to the signing of the proclamation of independence when one of the first words in the proclamation is God, similar to the Ulster covenant which also stresses religion) - the Green representing the predominantly Catholic and Presbyterian United Irishmen, the White representing peace between the communities and the Orange representing the Unionist/Orange (from King William of Orange) tradition. This flag was first designed in the early 19th century, shortly after the French revolution, but it was not until 1848 that it became widely known. The government of the RoI has never officially imparted any symbolism to the flag and simply specifies the pantone range of colours to be used on the flag - nothing else. It does indeed have suggestions as to its symbolism, including, as you put it, that the Green stands for Gaelic Ireland - but that is not correct at all. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  11:41, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Then i misread your comments, to which i apologise. In regards to the meaning of the tricolour, are you argueing with the Department of the Taoiseach which clearly states what i stated? My opinion on this is based upon Flag of Ireland which includes this source. Looks like the Irish government does have a take on its meaning - Gaelic and Orange traditions, not religion. Then again maybe they got their own flag wrong... Mabuska (talk) 12:15, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * And apology accepted. If I came across as a bit fiery I too apologise. I sometimes do have a tendency to be unable to put into writing that which is in my mind.
 * "Then again maybe they got their own flag wrong" - Very likely indeed - I believe you may well know the runnings of the state down South...Regarding the Department of the Taoiseach - it would not be the first time that that department has gotten something wrong. It is my understanding that what is written at the Dept of the Taoiseach is a reinterpretation of the colours' meaning due to the fact that many of the Protestant members of the United Irishmen left the "Green" field of nationalism and moved to the "Orange" field of Unionism after the Act of Union, although that is not really mentioned anywhere. Therefore the Green could no longer represent both Catholic and Presbyterian and so was reinterpreted to mean Gaelic, which could encompass Catholics, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc. without any religious connotations, and likewise the Orange could represent Unionism, again without any religious connotations. The Green in the flag was taken from the "Erin go Bragh" flag which was used by the United Irishmen while the Orange was taken from the followers of King William of Orange. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  12:26, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Stating green could represent Gaelic and orange could represent unionism doesn't make sense - why associate one colour in a flag to a culture whilst having another colour in it associated with politics? Gaels can be, and many were, unionists as well. Many nationalists were non-Gaels as well. Using the colour orange to denote unionism would also hardly bypass religious connoctations as William of Orange is most remembered for the Battle of the Boyne commonly misinterpreted by both sides as a religous battle between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. Mabuska (talk) 10:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I never said it made sense :)!!! A lot things in the British Isles in general, and on the island of Ireland in particular do not make sense. Indeed as you stated many Gaels were Unionist (although it is in a modern context I distinctly remember a Unionist - whose name I can't remember - with a surname as Irish Gaelic, albeit in English, as you could get, stating he was just as Irish as someone from Killarney, but that he would also prefer NI's continued association with the rest of the UK (I think he mentioned he would prefer Irish unity but within the UK, but I'm not sure about that). Douglas Hyde, Ireland's first president, was the son of an Anglican vicar and a keen supporter of the Irish language and all things considered "Gaelic". Indeed, many of the RoI's top politicians were former members of the "Protestant Ascendancy" including Childers, Hyde, Yeats, et. al. It's all part and parcel of the mixed bag of identities that are associated with this island, which too often people try to simplify - round pegs do not fit into square holes. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  10:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you mean Conor Cruise O'Brien by any chance??? Mabuska (talk) 17:20, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I suggest getting rid of the template, since it serves no useful purpose. It's just something else to argue over. Hiberno-English is, I believe, just about identical to British English in the written word anyway. But, if we must have the template, then the flag of Saint Patrick is, in my view, entirely acceptable and we should stay with it. It encompasses most things that can be considered "Hiberno". LevenBoy (talk) 07:42, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

We all know the trouble associated with the various symbols of Ireland. Best avoided unless necessary. Suggest it simply be removed. If an image is desired, a netural one to do with international language variants could be used. --RA (talk) 11:45, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Any suitable images in mind wrt the latter possibility? RashersTierney (talk) 11:56, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * No image would be preferable. As can be seen from the discussion between myself and Mabuska in the hidden archive, symbols can be quite inflammatory. At the end of the day there is no image which lends itself to the linguistic distinction of Hibernian-English. Perhaps a simple outline map of Ireland similar to that used at the top of the page might suffice if an image is indeed required. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  12:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

@Rashers -



? Loads over on the commons. May be useful in light of the recent Sarah incident to suggest that all such templates avoid flags and such templates go for a single neutral icon. --RA (talk) 12:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * How about altering the second picture from the left so that the two speech bubbles state Hiberno-Irish terms? Mabuska (talk) 12:21, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Which terms would you be thinking of? Is there anything at the top of anyone's mind that would be instantly recognisable as distinctly Hibernian-English? ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  12:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "idiot" vs. "eejit"? "feck" vs. ... well, you know where this is going.
 * Is there really any benefit to having an unquely Irish icon? It's only a talk page notice. (The second icon, by the way, apparantly illustrates an obvious disctinction between Brazilian and European PortugeseL: it is the word for 'train' in both languages.) --RA (talk) 12:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As a neutral and internationally recognised symbol for 'written language', how about this one.


 * Rosetta Stone.JPG or RosettaStoneAsPartOfOriginalStele.jpg or RosettaStone-LeftAndRightSides-BritishMuseum-August21-08.jpg. It would be equally applicable on other similar templates, if so wished. RashersTierney (talk) 13:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The flag is a distraction from the main argument. At the moment there's a purge going on with various editors doing their utmost to get rid of flags across the board and this template has popped up on their radar. I say again, why do we need this template at all? Where will it be used? If you think it should be used on articles about Ireland - come on! British English is the written form in Ireland. To start using Hiberno-English just to placate a nationalist viewpoint is just ridiculous. Who says flags are a problem. They aren't. It's just the people here who are. LevenBoy (talk) 15:43, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Leaving out LevenBoy's attack on some editors he does have a point in that although Hibernian-English is a recognised form of English, the articles here, and indeed the written language in Ireland, is indeed British English. Regarding flags being a problem - well they are if their use is inaccurate. Let's stick a European flag in place of the British flag at the British English template and see how that one goes. Is Britain in the EU? Yes. Is the variety of English used by the EU British? Yes. But you won't find too many editors agreeing with it. Likewise, to use a flag most are unaware of to somehow inform otherwise uninformed people at a quick glance, without providing context to the flag, is just plain silly. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  16:01, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think, if we must replace the flags, somthing simple like the File:Globe of letters.svg is the best choice. LevenBoy, you should address the arguments rather than just claiming this is a conspiracy against certain flags. That's assuming bad faith. However, I agree with you that ther's no need for this Hiberno-English template. We should hav only three templates and no flags: one for UK spelling, one for US spelling and one for Canadian spelling. ~Asarlaí 16:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well call it bad faith if you like but how do you explain the actions of certain editors who are systematically going through Wikipedia removing flags and causing edit wars all over the place? This one is easy to solve - just get rid of the template. And yes, flags are a problem if their use is inaccurate; agreed. So if this template survives maybe rethink the flag that's on it (I don't personally have a problem with it) and use a more appropriate flag. Why the flag? I mentioned at the debate over at the AmE tempate (what a coincidence eh! similar debate about flags over there) why the flag is appropriate. The reason is that it denotes where the language version originates - and that's as important as where it's used. LevenBoy (talk) 16:12, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Quite simple to explain really. I don't try to explain. I don't attempt to label anyone nationalist or otherwise. The motivations are irrelevant and should not be taken into account. It's the content that's important and it is that which should be argued. Regarding this particular template, there is no flag that encompasses both jurisdictions as well as both nationalist and unionist traditions. That is why there is a problem with a flag here. I'm not commenting on the British flag at the British English template as I feel I am kind of torn on that one - against: it reads as though that variety of English is only used in Britain (if at a quick glance by someone otherwise ignorant of the issue); for: it is indeed a quick identifier of the variety of English. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  16:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

As suggested at Template talk:British English, there is now a centralised discussion regarding alternatives to flag icons on these templates. It is located at the MOS Talk Page. RashersTierney (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2011 (UTC)