Template talk:Israel–Hamas war infobox

Regions
While it is true that PIJ operates outside of Gaza for example, it is also true that Israel is not fighting in Yemen, nor in Iraq. We can roughly avoid mention of these intricacies, as we have already done in relation to Israel not fighting in Yemen or Iraq, by sorting into regions. This would give the reader a rough image of the situation. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)


 * But "the special relationship" is bombing Yemen for Israel. It's part of the war. Irtapil (talk) 01:10, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Can someone put the number of Palestinians murdered by the Israelis in East Jerusalem during this conflict and keep the number updated? 38.99.190.243 (talk) 01:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Makeandtoss PIJ and Hamas seem to be missing in Lebanon currently? MWQs (talk) 15:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Too minimal involvement there imo. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:39, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Who were you responding to? MWQs (talk) 17:02, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

No graph showing Israeli bombs and attacks on Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, et al but there is a graph depicting Palestinian bombs fired on Israel.
Why is there no graph showing the number of bombs dropped by Israel on Palestine, Syria, Lebanon? There exists graph depicting alleged Palestine-origin bombs. 2601:803:201:7B00:B06E:EC14:4477:EDFC (talk) 22:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Can someone put the number of Palestinians murdered by the Israelis in East Jerusalem during this conflict and keep the number updated? 38.99.190.243 (talk) 01:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If you provide a good source it could be a footnote on the West Bank section. But please submit as a proper edit request like the one below, or your suggestion might get deleted. MWQs (talk) 17:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 March 2024
Change * 30,631+ killed To * 30,631+ civilians killed 193.191.179.1 (talk) 07:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Declined. Where do you get that from? The Gaza Health ministry does not distinguish between civilians and military that I have seen in any citation. NadVolum (talk) 10:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Gaza Health Ministry that you linked to says "The casualty figures provided by the ministry do not distinguish the difference between civilians and combatants or provide the cause of death. The percentage of civilian deaths is only calculated post-conflict by the UN and various rights groups." NadVolum (talk) 10:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I thought for a while that they might be leaving combatants off the list, but the 7 October has 250 male and 6 female, so probably not. MWQs (talk) 17:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 April 2024
→ Gaza health ministry says 7000 missing not 8000 2001:8003:266B:4D00:81B7:B47B:8752:5B4 (talk) 10:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * If you have a look the latest figures separate figures are given for men and for women and children. As of 21 April they were 7,000 missing for men and 4,700 missing for women and children. Those figures are both I believe still some thousands away from the actual figures but they're about the best you'll get from an official source and not unreasonable. They're quite different from their 70% for missing women and children they estimated before - they probably just got that from bombed houses, I guess they've had to stick in Hamas militant deaths into the figures for men as they're mostly not showing up in recorded deaths which are only ones where people can get at the bodies.
 * I think it is reasonable to add the figures if you don't want to put them in separately. NadVolum (talk) 10:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, just looked again and it didn't say the 7,000 were men, it just showed only a man as compared to the Women and Kids one and the number had reduced and would be just silly as the total. But I can't be absolutely certain it means just men. NadVolum (talk) 11:12, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * ❌ - stale, contested request. And it looks like the page says 10,000 now as war rages its course. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 April 2024
Under belligerents of the war, there should be a "Supported by" the United States of America, with these citations: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/ AND https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/20/us-vetoes-another-un-security-council-resolution-urging-gaza-war-ceasefire#:~:text=Majority%20of%20members%20voted%20to,killed%20more%20than%2029%2C000%20people.&text=The%20United%20States%20has%20vetoed,ceasefire%20between%20Israel%20and%20Hamas., similar to the "Supported by" section on the War in Darfur page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Darfur. 74.15.65.150 (talk) 18:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * ❌ This needs a much broader discussion. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Casualty Figures Bias
Why do the casualties for Israel list specific civilian casualties, but all the dead of Palestine are lumped in the same category? It's as if the article is implying there are no Palestinian civilians, only combatants, which is disgusting 2605:A601:AF6C:1700:A915:DB4F:28EA:266A (talk) 21:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Exactly how many Palestinians were civilians and militias is unknown. Parham wiki (talk) 16:27, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Revised Palestinian fatality figures released (Update needed)
As others here have already pointed out, the math regarding the breakdown of the provided Palestinian fatality figures did not quite add up. Yesterday, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs revised these figures in their most recent infographic on reliefweb.int. So as of May 8, 2024, there has been a total of 34,844 reported Palestinian fatalities in the Gaza Strip since the war started. A total of 24,686 of these have been confirmed and identified, and of this total: 10,006 are men (40%), 4,959 are women (20%), 7,797 are children (32%), and 1,924 are elderly (8%). This is a significant change from what was previously claimed and needs to be updated in the infobox on this wiki page. This also means that 52% of recorded fatalities have been women and children and not >70% so any mentions of the >70% figure in this article should be deemed no longer factual. I would assume then that women and children make up ~52% of the wounded as well but we cannot be sure. These revised figures are more in line with Israeli estimates as far as I can tell (1 “combatant” for every 1.5 “civilian”). As of May 2024, Israel says it has killed 15,000 Hamas members in battle (per The Times of Israel). Based on a precedent in previous conflicts, Israel does not distinguish between male civilians and combatants when they release total fatality estimates of their enemy. If about 10,000 of the recorded Palestinian deaths have been adult males and if 40% of the 10,158 bodies yet to be properly identified are adult males, this would give a total of more than 14,000 Palestinian adult male deaths in the war so far. Now obviously, not all Palestinian men who have died are members of Hamas but the figure is very close to what Israel claims and we would assume it would be because they do not distinguish between male civilians and combatants in the numbers they release like I said. Nathan1223 (talk) 20:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I see a difference between confirmed and identified (OCHA) and confirmed (MoH), because it seems that almost a third of victims have been confirmed, including gender, but not identified – possibly, for lack of identity documents, lack of witnesses, mutilation, speedy burial (in Islam bodies are buried within 24 hours of death), etc. etc. Not impossible that the majority of them were women and children. So, I'd be cautious with treating the OCHA numbers as "revised MoH numbers"; they are not, they use different criteria. — kashmīrī  TALK  20:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Revised" was maybe the wrong word then. I see what you’re saying and I don’t necessarily disagree but if we are striving for accuracy, I feel like nonbiased confirmed and identified fatality counts (OCHA) should take inclusion priority over confirmed?/claimed but possibly biased fatality counts (MoH). I just now saw someone had went into more detail about this on the talk section of the separate Casualties of the Israel–Hamas War page. They basically were saying the same thing I’m saying that these new figures demonstrate that the Gaza Ministry of Health claims about the number of women and children killed are impossible. On May 8, 2024, the MoH claimed that out of 34,844 total deaths, 15,002 were children and 9,892 were women (combined, this would be 71.4% of the total). That would imply a maximum of 9,950 men killed, less than the number of men (18-59) the OCHA has already confirmed and would imply that all of those counted but not yet identified are women and children, which is highly unlikely. Nathan1223 (talk) 22:31, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I just discovered this so I am adding this for clarification... there is a disclaimer below the recent OCHA report with the new figures on ochaopt.org, which reads "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or the Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification." Therefore, these are not separate fatality figures from OCHA as assumed, they are indeed revised figures sourced from the MoH so I stand by the wording in my original post above. As such, I suggest we consider changing the breakdown of the fatality figures in the infobox and in the article to reflect the more up-to-date data we have now. Nathan1223 (talk) 07:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Nathan1223 I agree the matter merits further discussion. But also this article is covered with WP:ARBPIA restriction and, per the notice at the top, accounts with less than 500 edits can't engage in discussions (althouth the exact scope is being discussed). — kashmīrī  TALK  10:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Confirmed but not identified would be unidentified bodies they're definitely dead, probably Palestinian, but they don't know their name. The identified have name and date of birth and Israeli ID number. Then there is a third category of missing, who are mostly presumed dead under rubble. MWQs (talk) 15:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Groups
"When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict" per Template:Infobox military conflict. As a middle ground solution you can add the PIJ and PFLP outside the collapsible list since they are along with Hamas the three most prominent groups. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't think that's a rule but a general guideline. Going by my personal estimate, Hamas seems to do 90% of the fighting in the war. That, endorsed by the title "Israel-Hamas war", makes other belligerents seem misleading. Furthermore, I'm not even sure whether they should be included in the collapsible at all. Because collapsible lists are auto collapsed for mobile viewers. Most of the infobox, including dozens of combatant militant groups, and specific units should be removed to an article called Belligerents of the Israel-Hamas war, similar to how Syrian civil war belligerents and infobox is managed with List of armed factions in the Syrian Civil War. Let me know what you think. Ecrusized (talk) 12:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, a general guideline that we should follow. Not a good analogy as the Syrian civil war has multiple sides with dozens of belligerents and groups with complex relationships. This war is as straightforward as Black September and First intifada, where all of the groups are listed without collapsible lists. There is nothing misleading about the fact that despite Hamas being the main armed group (and no its not 90%), there are other secondary groups that are fighting alongside it, including most prominently PIJ, widely cited by Israel as an important combatant, and the PFLP, which is fighting alongside them currently in Rafah. We either remove the collapsible list in par with the aforementioned conflicts, or we take the top three or four in part with the general guideline. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:40, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We either remove the collapsible list in par with the aforementioned conflicts, or. You don't get to dictate anything. I'm ending this discussion since you seem to be in an non-compromising position. If you revert, you will likely get blocked for edit warring. Ecrusized (talk) 15:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Is this sarcastic? I gave a compromise of adding the top three instead of adding all of them. Meanwhile you are still insisting on your initial non-compromising position of keeping all of them in the collapsible list. If you later revert, you will also get blocked for edit warring, as well as treating Wikipedia as a battleground. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I said I'm ending this discussion. Stop pinging me. Ecrusized (talk) 09:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry to disappoint, but this is a public Wikipedia article and not your private mailbox. You're welcome to end your participation in the discussion, but it is not ending and other editors are welcome to join in. Eventually an RFC or other forms of dispute resolution will be opened. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You just pinged me after I said stop pinging me. If you ping once more and I'll report you for abuse of user rights. Ecrusized (talk) 15:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 May 2024
Ocha has updated the number of reported casualties. As of May 8th 2024 the numbers are: Total Palestinians: 34,844 of which 24,686, as of April 30th, are identified as: Men: 10,006 (40%) Women: 4,959 (20%) Children: 7,797 (32%) Elderly: 1,924 (8%)

Source: 213.164.196.30 (talk) 12:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Not done. Discussion ongoing at main article.Selfstudier (talk) 12:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @Selfstudier if it gets shown it should be labeled "unidentified bodies", people keep confusing it with missing,but I am pretty sure they are two added groups? MWQs (talk) 16:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Citation error Israeli military casualties
There's currently a citation error Cite error: The named reference Template:Israel–Hamas war infobox:shinbet If somebody could fix that it would be good. Thanks. NadVolum (talk) 14:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @NadVolum is it still there? MWQs (talk) 16:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No it's been fixed, in fact they, there were two. NadVolum (talk) 18:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Newer Hamas militants killed count
14,000 militants. Refs: galenIgh 23:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893
 * https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-death-toll-how-many-palestinians-has-israels-campaign-killed-2024-05-14/
 * Someone did the edit (using a different ref), so closing the request here. galenIgh  17:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Are they all Hamas? Or is that for all groups? MWQs (talk) 12:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Update the template
1 egyptian soldier is killed so hope to update the template in other theaters. 172.97.229.55 (talk) 17:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

why is there no mention on innocent civilians killed
In the casualties and losses breakdown, for the Israel side there is a clear distinction between civilians killed and soldiers killed but for the Palestinian side the innocent civilian death toll and Hamas fighter death toll is clumped together without making it clear the innocent civilian death toll is much much larger than the Hamas fighter death toll. The entire article frames this war as exclusively between Israel and Hamas insinuating that the innocent civilians who were killed were Hamas fighters, which only serves to sympathize with Israel by solely highlighting the innocent civilians killed on that side while ignoring the innocents on the Palestinian side. KareemMAly (talk) 11:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The Gaza Health Ministry does not distinguish between civilians and soldiers in their reporting. Note [d] does contain the estimates made by Israel and US analysts. Alaexis¿question? 11:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The number that appears in the info box is derived from the Gaza Ministry of Health, who does not distinguish between he two. 2600:4040:297C:8F00:4CEC:C70D:806A:7A3E (talk) 04:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Arms suppliers
The inclusion of non-belligerents was deprecated by the community a year ago (see Template_talk:Infobox_military_conflict). If we are to list all arms suppliers, non-belligerents would outnumber belligerents, and the infobox would be bloated (defeating its purpose). Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 05:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)


 * That's why I listed "major arms suppliers" not "arms suppliers". A lot of Western countries have sent arms to Israel, but most of it comes from the USA and Germany, and two countries in the list would not make the list bloated. Even Tigray War lists three arms suppliers under the belligerents section, more than in this infobox. Addressing your point about non-belligerents outnumbering belligerents, again refer to Tigray War, where there are only two actual belligerents (Ethiopia and Eritrea) on one side but three arms suppliers. No one is fixing that infobox, so I don't see a problem listing out the USA and Germany here either. Chong Yi Lam (talk) 06:53, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also I've stated my reasons for adding those two countries in the previous edit so you might want to write a better reason for reverting it. Just saying. Chong Yi Lam (talk) 06:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Did you fail to see the infobox for military conflicts stating The practice of writing in a "Supported by" subheading is deprecated. Just because there is a article with a infobox that was created before the deprecation and haven't been updated since or added by a unkowing user doesn't mean it can be added to infoboxes anymore.


 * Also No one is fixing that infobox, so I don't see a problem listing out the USA and Germany here either comes off as editing to make a WP:POINT about another page. If you see a issue then you should fix it in the Tigray War page rather than taking it on other pages.- UtoD 10:17, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I did see the deprecation, that's why I did not revert your revert. I was just telling you about your reason for reverting my edit, which seemed weird, as if you did not read the reason for that edit. Chong Yi Lam (talk) 17:18, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Number of Gazans in detention
The figure in the info box for detained Palestinians refers to the total number of Palestinians in Israeli civil detention, which does not include the number of people abducted from Gaza during the war itself, who are held in military prison camps rather than the normal Israeli prison system. The figure – 9000+ – has increased dramatically since October, but this is primarily because of Palestinians detained in the West Bank (and probably Israel proper). The number of Gazans detained, as far as I know, is not reported by the IDF. The box should reflect this somehow. 92.12.103.93 (talk) 16:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Good point, but do you have a reference we can use to fix it? MWQs (talk) 13:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

"Likely Much Higher" is not encyclopedic
The info box currently contains the following language: "37+ deaths caused by malnutrition[30] (likely much higher)[31]." Reference 31 is to a CNN article that is describing conditions of malnutrition, but it doesn't actually say anything about numbers of deaths due to malnutrition.

This seems to violate WP:FORUM and WP:CRYSTALBALL. The "Likely Much Higher" is basically an entirely unsourced prediction.

(unsigned comment above User:2600:4040:297C:8F00:4CEC:C70D:806A:7A3E)


 * That statement, or a statement to that effect, should be kept, but with a better sources. I don't think anyone has quantified it, but there are better sourves than CNN reporting it. Try: medical journals, United Nations, WHO, MSF, etc. The overall official count has also been way below reality since 27 October, but we should put it on just one, both is maybe a bit undue. MWQs (talk) 09:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * We also need to include infectious diseases, possibly in the section for wounded, there are no estimates of many deaths, yet. Unless this stops soon, infections will be the biggest killer. MWQs (talk) 09:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * What the experts are saying implies they believe at least that sort of number of children die of famine every couple of days in the north. They can't declare a famine because of lack of access to check though. This is difficult but I think leaving out likely much higher would be lying. NadVolum (talk) 12:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * See https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/05/starvation-already-causing-mass-death-and-lasting-harm-in-gaza-agencies-say "Experts from the network, set up by the US in the 1980s to warn of impending crises, initially declared it “likely” that famine was under way in northern Gaza from April", "Under the technical definition of famine, 20% of households must face an extreme lack of food, or essentially be starving. One-third of children must be suffering from acute malnutrition or wasting, and two adults or four children for every 10,000 people must be dying daily from hunger and its complications" and do the math. Though of course that is OR. NadVolum (talk) 12:54, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @NadVolum but that's number in famine, not deaths? MWQs (talk) 15:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * See this part of the criteria "and two adults or four children for every 10,000 people must be dying daily from hunger and its complications" There's some hundreds of thousands still in northern Gaza, I think the UN estimates 300,000, other estimates are higher. NadVolum (talk) 17:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I disagree with "should be kept, but with better sources". It's not that I disagree that if we have sources stating "likely much higher" or some equivalent statement, we shouldn't mention it; I'm disagreeing with the order. When we have better sources, we should include this statement. Until then, this statement should be removed as it isn't sourced and probably OR. Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 14:40, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you the originator of the edit request? The reason I ask is because editors must be extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic except for making edit requests. That means that the originator of the request can respond to requests to clarify the request, but other non-extendedconfirmed users cannot participate in consensus forming discussions. They can only make edit requests. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:27, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one who started the request. I'm new to Wikipedia, so maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but as far as I understand, extended-confirmed status means that I can't edit this page, but it doesn't mention anything about discussion. Am I missing something? Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 19:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You can only make a specific edit request, I've put a welcome-arbpia about it on your talk page. NadVolum (talk) 22:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Combining stats for "Per Hamas"
@User:Genabab, the range doesn't work for Hamas report of IDF dead, because those two numbers of dead IDF soldiers were for different time frames, ānd the higher estimate was (according to the current source cited for it) for just 27 October to the last week of December, whereas the LOWER estimate is the most stats from Hamas for the entire war. It is a bit complicated and hard to summarise concisely, but if you don't want two listings I'll try to put the alternative numbers in a footnote. Normally I'd just delete the older less accurate stats, but they got a lot more media attention than the current numbers Hamas report, that are within 10% of Haaretz. And normally we'd not bother listing that the numbers agree, except that they previously (allegedly) didn't. Allegedly, because the current citation looks like they might have mistranslayed or misinterpreted something. I'm trying to find the original story it quotes from AJ. MWQs (talk) 12:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Number of Hamas militants killed, per US intelligence
In note i, the number of Hamas militants killed "per US intelligence" should be changed from the current "9,000-12,000" to "8,000-16,000".

The current numbers misinterpret the reference Reuters article, which reads:

...has been reduced to between 9,000 and 12,000 fighters, according to three senior U.S. officials ... down from American estimates of 20,000-25,000 before the conflict.

Notice it says "reduced TO" and not "reduced BY". Also, the pre-conflict estimate seems to be a Reuters interpretation, as they link to cia.gov. It's not clear that this is what the quoted seniors implied, and other sources cite higher numbers, such as 30,000. galenIgh 14:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 June 2024
Add Raed Saad, Commander of the Gaza Unit of the Al Qassam Brigade as a #4 commander for Hamas and killed today, June 22 Yaron.ben1 (talk) 11:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's better to include the links to one or more reliable sources with edit requests involving the addition of new content. Content requires a source per WP:V. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:06, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Yaron.ben1 that would probably be more appropriate on Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip or Bombing of the Gaza Strip or both, if you find a reliable source we can cite and make an edit request on one of those pages, then it will get added. We can't fit every unit leader on the table for the main page. MWQs (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Even Al-Qassam's #3 doesn't fit here, just top two political and military leaders on each side. MWQs (talk) 22:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit request - update Syria and Lebanon casualties data
Please update the casualties numbers in Syria and Lebanon. The current numbers are (according to the Israel–Hezbollah_conflict page): 470 militants in Lebanon (per Hezbollah, Hamas and PIJ):

389 Hezbollah members (including 2 Saraya personnel)

39 Palestinian militants

20 Amal Movement members

16 Islamic Group members

3 Islamic Azz Brigades fighters

2 Lebanese security forces members

1 Eagles of the Whirlwind fighter

255 militants and soldiers in Syria: (per Syrian Observatory for Human Rights)

108 Iran-backed militiamen

61 Hezbollah fighters

55 Syrian soldiers

26 IRGC soldiers

2 Palestinian Islamic Jihad fighters

3 Unidentified

96 civilians killed in Lebanon

18 civilians killed in Syria Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 09:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I was going to suggest the same edit be done. But I noticed that there is a typo for the number of Hezbollah fighters killed in Lebanon on the Israel–Hezbollah_conflict wiki page. It should be 289 in Lebanon and 350 total Hezbollah fighters killed. That is what the source says that is linked on that page. So somebody needs to fix those numbers first. Nathan1223 (talk) 18:25, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So according to it I'm changing my edit request to be " 289 Hezbollah members (including 2 Saraya personnel) "
 * instead of " 389 Hezbollah members (including 2 Saraya personnel) " Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Infobox
I have never seen war leaders being divided into political, military or internal security categories, so why are we doing this here? Makeandtoss (talk) 16:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit request - Better use of the Lancet survey
Request:


 * 1) Please change "38,153-186,000+ killed (including indirect deaths)" to "38,153+ killed".
 * 2) Please change "186,000+ deaths 'attributable to the current conflict in Gaza.'" to "186,000+ expected indirect deaths in the coming months and years"

Reason:

The Lancet article doesn't say that currently 186,000+ Palestinian have been killed, but rather that the indirect deaths could amount to (using conservative estimate) that number. Specifically, the article states that "[a] conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death ... to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict". One paragraph before this, the article explains "[there] will continue to be many indirect deaths in the coming months and years".

Additionally, I don't have permission to open a topic in Talk:Israel–Hamas war, but can someone please edit the main article to reflect this change? Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 11:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Updating to
 * Estimates of expected casualties:Lancet Correspondence: 186,000+ deaths "attributable to the current conflict in Gaza.".
 * The word 'statistical' is unnecessary - as that is generally how estimates are generated. Makes clear the casualty number is expected - and clarifies the source of the estimate (an article in Correspondence, not a peer reviewed study). &#124; MK17b &#124;  (talk)  01:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the update Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 07:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @MountainDew20 - Hi, I saw that you removed the "expected" regarding the Lancet Correspondence in this edit. As I explained here, the Lancet Correspondence is indeed an expected deaths (direct and in-direct) for the coming months and  years. Could you please revert your edit or explain why it should remain?
 * Tagging @Mk17b as I'm a new user and Mk17b corrected the template to include "expected". Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 18:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request - Lancet Contribution citation
I couldn't figure out how to get the Wikipedia template wizard to work right for the infobox talk but this is an extended-confirmed-protected edit request. I would propose by consensus changing the written attribution for the Lancet contribution to change from "Lancet contribution" to "Khatib, McKee, and Yusuf" or "Khatib et al." or "Advocate Aurora Research Institute and Birzeit University" (the affilitations of the corresponding author). Looking at recent war casualty pages in Wikipedia, casualty estimates are always attributed to the source or authors and not the journal unless editors of the journal are on the paper (e.g. a PLoS bio study). See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War. The only exception to this rule I could find was citation of a "Lancet survey" in the Iraq war page, which I would argue is also a mistake but slightly better because published surveys are often pre-approved by the journal and at the very least heavily associated with the journal's name in a way that correspondences are not. Besides the relevance of precedence to changing the attribution, it is also the norm in modern science to cite authors and not journals because publication in a journal is a prerequisite sign of credibility/plausibility, but not representative of the source of a claim or its evidence. The current citation style ends up sounding more like a Twitter feed ("my journal that I can't read says this") and less like an encyclopedic source "Khatib et al from Birzeit university projected" ... [cite lancet correspondence]".

For the same box, the direct casualties from MoH should still be cited (circa 40,000); it is inappropriate to cite only total (direct+indirect) casualty estimates and not direct casualty numbers (see all the Wikipedia pages above which cite Body Count sources which are directly caused deaths), especially when the indirect estimate in Khatib et al. was obtained by multiplying the direct number by 4. Scienceturtle1 (talk) 17:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * More recent edits seem to have resolved this Scienceturtle1 (talk) 16:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

RFC
Which RFC are you referring to? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This one, which found a consensus for a footnote with "Per Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry", an attribution that was then stable in the article until a couple of weeks ago. BilledMammal (talk) 10:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you elaborate? The closing note says that "reliable sources provided attribution from both the Gaza Health Ministry and Israel," and not "Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry". Makeandtoss (talk) 11:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Look at the proposed text for Option 1. BilledMammal (talk) 11:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not conclusive, Options 2 and 3 also have it, pretty sure people weren't that focused on the "Hamas-run" part, I was involved and I wasn't. Selfstudier (talk) 11:17, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I’m not sure what your point is. There isn’t a consensus for a specifically proposed text because some - although not all - of the other options also included that text?
 * This doesn’t work that way. BilledMammal (talk) 11:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It is now going to be addressed at the newer RFC so academic what either of us think at this point-. Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * A general RFC won’t overturn the specific one here - it’s not like we’re writing policy, and the general RFC will thus only provide a weak guidance that can easily be overturned specific articles. BilledMammal (talk) 12:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The (new) RFC opener said "I'd rather do something than let this continue to be an issue across a pile of articles." Selfstudier (talk) 12:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And then, when opening it "This has been a recurring issue across many articles in the ARBPIA space, where NPOV concerns have been presented both in support and opposition to the Hamas-run label. Rather than dealing with establishing a local consensus each time this arises I am seeking a broader community consensus on using a qualifier with Gaza Health Ministry." So yea, that argument isn't going to fly. Selfstudier (talk) 12:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Removed 24 June That consensus covers endnote attribution to GHM and now the "Hamas run" part of that is subject of the new RFC at NPOVN (there having been several other inconclusive discussions since end 2023). Selfstudier (talk) 11:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC
 * I read through the discussion at that RfC and there was no consensus to include Hamas-run and the closers comment said nothing about it. The most recent discussion before Hamas-run was removed from here is Talk:Israel–Hamas_war/Archive_44. NadVolum (talk) 12:16, 17 July 2024 (UTC)