Template talk:Navbox/Archive 10

Adding classes
How can an editor add an HTML class to the whole box, or just the title? (like bodyclass or titleclass in infobox)? Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 17:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Adding a class to the whole box *could* be achieved via encapsulating it in a  or   tag, though it would probably have some very undesirable side effects. The most elegant way to do so would be to request a change on the (meta)template or to hardcode the box yourself. Adding a class to the title is very simple, just enclose it in a   tag - for example,  . Hope that helps! — Dino  guy  1000  18:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. It's a pity there's no straightforward way to add a class to the whole template, via it's parent &lt;table> element, as there is with, infobox and templates derived from it - it's necessary to do so, to make the template emit certain microformats. With regard to the title's class, I was hoping for a more elegant method, which would apply the class to the TR or TH element, saving bloat. If anyone can make the former possible, I'd be grateful, please. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 19:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It shouldn't be that difficult to add, maybe CapitalR or someone else would be willing to do so (since I'm not an admin and this is fully protected). — Dino guy  1000  19:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds useful to me. Just so I'm clear about the request, which elements do you want classes for?  Just a ,  ,  , and  ?  Or should we also make   and  ?  Or how about   and  ?  I'm also concerned about template bloat, so the fewer the better.  Let me know which ones are needed and I'll add them. --CapitalR (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * From the point of view of adding microformats, all of them, please. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 16:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The original request would also call for a . ;) — Dino  guy  1000  18:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

← Any news? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * ??? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Problems with spacing on some Navboxes
I'm having problems with the spacing on USHouseSpeaker. See:

This only happens when the title is linked. Otherwise, everything fits nicely.

There are some more Navboxes like this. See, for example, Category:United States House of Representatives navigational boxes.—Markles 18:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * They both look the same here (FF 3.0.1, Win XP); you need to tell us what browser, version and OS is being used. Have you tried other browsers? Andy Mabbett (aka Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy Mabbett; Andy Mabbett's contributions 18:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * And what resolution. --Izno (talk) 19:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Really? Wow, I never suspected it was browser related.  Me: Safari 3.1.2; Mac OS 10.4.11; 1152x768. —Markles 23:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)  There is no problem when using Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.10 (with same specs).—Markles 01:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Same here, I'm also using Safari, but the problem doesn't show up with Firefox. -- Ned Scott 03:14, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks good in FireFox3 and Opera. Internet Explorer 8, Safari 3.1.2. for Windows and Chrome all wrap at about 50% of the box width. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  13:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * How do we fix it?—Markles 15:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It can also be fixed by removing the image:

So, it looks like it happens if you have a linked title and an image. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  15:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Browser bug

 * So is there a way to fix this problem? Can the Navbox code be adjusted to compensate for these browser bugs such as this specific one affecting Speakers of the U.S. House?—Markles 12:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Problems with v·d·e colors
Hello everybody. I'm from catalan wikipedia and we have a little problem when we want to change the title colour. As you can see here and here, the same navbox code gives different results and we don't know why (the navbox code is the same and our CSS code for navboxes is also the same). Thanks!! --Schizodelight (talk) 11:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I assume has a difference. Catalan one doesn't support fontstyle parameter. --fryed-peach (talk) 13:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Another question...
I've created this template:

This template contains a navbox with collapsible groups template (state=child) inside but this additional template doesn't allow me to have uncollapsed the main template if there is only this one in an article and collapsed if there are two or more navbox templates. How can I solve it? What should I write in "state" parameter? Thanks again.!--Schizodelight (talk) 13:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

 {{Navbox ...etc.
 * Hi. If I've understood your request correctly, I think adding    to the parent Navbox should work, i.e.
 * name=Espais naturals de Catalunya
 * state = expanded
 * title=Espais naturals de Catalunya
 * Sorry in advance if that's not what you want. Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment\Style issue
Hi. Which of the following Navbox template formattings do you prefer, the first (A) or second (B)?

Version B
Thank you for your input. Sardanaphalus (talk) 10:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Responses
Comment It might help if you spell out what the differences are and the pros/cons of the changes, so that each responder does not have to research your inquiry. In other words, what are you trying to prove? Rgrds. --Tombstone (talk) 11:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought about doing this, but decided against in case it biased the process. Hopefully that was the optimal way to go. Sardanaphalus (talk) 17:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I prefer Version B with the tighter spacing. --Tombstone (talk) 11:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Me too.--Kotniski (talk) 13:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No opinion either way &mdash; option A is "easier" on the eyes I'd say, while B is more "pleasing", if it's possible to distinguish the two. --Izno (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see a difference? SharkD (talk) 18:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's okay; your browser may render them as virtually identical. Thanks for posting. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment Before going any further, I will have to state that version B is technically not feasable because it requires coding that breaks other functions like subgroups and nested navboxes. See the discussion at MediaWiki talk:Common.css, where it is explained in more detail. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 19:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It is -- or should be -- possible; some ingenuity will probably be needed. If it isn't possible, something's amiss with the Navbox setup. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't like to state the obvious, but we're looking at it, so how is it conceivably not feasible?--Kotniski (talk) 07:55, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It should also be noted that Sardanaphalus has been angling for this change, or a very similar one, for months now - there should be older discussions on it in the archives somewhere. That being said, I personally prefer option A, though I wouldn't be against slightly tighter linespacing for groups (nothing nearly as cramped as what option B presents, though...). — Dino guy  1000  19:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In it's current setup, it cannot be done with a simple edit. It would require all navbox style handling to be redone in a major fashion. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 14:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Technically infeasible - Sardanaphalus has been demanding this change for months now and we have repeatedly answered "no that will break things" and explained that "it will break the navbox subgroups, that is the navbox inside navbox functionality". The reason why his example above seems to work is that it is hard-coded and that it doesn't have any subgroups.

Sardanaphalus is wasting everybody's time with his demands. We have already told you repeatedly: NO we don't know how to solve it, and NO we are not going to spend time trying to solve it for you (we are not your paid employees), and NO we won't accept deploying a broken "solution". (And besides, I think your kind of padding and margins make the link lists harder to read.)

So as we have told you many times before: Sardanaphalus: Your only sane path of action is to code up the whole thing in your own user space and experiment and test it carefully to try to find something that works with your ideas. (But I think it will probably be hard to find such a solution.) Well, you have one other sane path of action, that is no action. Just drop the whole thing and go do something else, okay?

We have no reasons to answer any more questions from you. You have to stop pestering us with your demands and questions. Your refusal to stand down means you are wasting everybody's time and making people angry. And that is detrimental to Wikipedia.

(Anyone curious on the history of this can dig through the archives of this page and check the edit history for Sardanaphalus and see that he have brought up this question again and again on all kinds of talk pages, including putting demands on personal talk pages of those who have been involved in the coding of the navbox system.)

--David Göthberg (talk) 14:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well steady on, he only asked people which they prefer. If there's a majority for the unspaced version, that means it may be worth working on implementing that. If not, then not. No-one's obliged to do anything, of course, but presumably changing the line spacing isn't very hard (and if the subgroups are the only things that break, I presume it would be quite easy to make the style declaration conditional on the absence of subgroup parameters).--Kotniski (talk) 08:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Kotniski; you've said what I was going to try to say. I asked David whether he thinks it's worthwhile my trying to revamp the Navbox code -- the subtext being a willingness to help, as I'm aware I'm not as expert as he or other people here -- but have seen no response until the above just now. It seems that whatever consensus I try to generate, cultivate or find, it's 'wrong' or 'inappropriate'. As to making demands, I don't believe I have ever made any. Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Changing the line spacing isn't hard; it's the padding that's the problem. And there is no mechanism for conditional styling present; a group parameter has no way of knowing what is being passed, nor is it possible to pass conditional CSS from a parent-navbox to it's child, or vice versa. Trying to accomplish this, requires massive conditional coding that places too much stress on the parser; just to correct line-height. The cost is simply too high compared to the supposed benefit. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 23:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspected that passing styling between parent and child or vice versa might be the ultimate stumbling block. Although less than ideal, adding one or more group/liststyles to a Navbox template seems a reasonable workaround to me, but there's a user who's been removing them -- not on the grounds that there's a consensus against them, but because they're non-standard, non-default. (This is the main reason behind my revisiting this situation.) If it continues, I guess I'll have to try asking them again to refrain from doing so, but this time with reference to the above. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. As for the user removing the styles: he does have a point. Navboxes should look consistent, and not be taylored to one's personal preference. Plus the styling may get in the way of possible future expansions. My advice is, if anyone contests your changes, it is best not to revert them; Once contested, it is up to you to make you case for such changes. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 13:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly, and I've told him this several times (which seems to be a running theme). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Case is as above (i.e. the intial part of this thread) -- but, far more tellingly, it's the complete lack of negative response to the stylings added to dozens of different Navboxes. If there's a running theme, then there's more than one of them. Sardanaphalus (talk) 14:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The stylings are not the issue - it's that you have to go overriding defaults on a case-by-case basis in order to change them. To say that there has been "a complete lack of negative response" to this is an untruth, and only one of many you've come out with on the theme of "those who respond negatively to my changes are in the minority as far more people have failed to respond negatively". Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected; there have been two instances of concern expressed about the stylings -- one of them being above -- that I can recall seeing. (The other is point 3 here.) If there had been concerns expressed -- if only in the edit summaries of reversions -- about the effect on presentation as I added this styling to templates, then I would have modified or stopped adding it. But there haven't been. Why is that difficult to understand? Sardanaphalus (talk) 15:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not the end presentation which is the problem here - it is the means by which this is achieved. You think that manually overriding every single template on the project to suit your CSS aesthetics is an appropriate solution. I, and others, do not believe that this is an appropriate action. You haven't provided any compelling argument for change. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Other than a design principle (Gestalt grouping) and no chorus of disapproval over time and across many templates, I guess I have supplied no evidence. In any case, it seems that even if those more computery people here thought any styling other than the default was worthwhile, a rewrite of the Navbox system would be required. There does seem to be at least one precedent for carrying extra information in each and every Navbox template, however: the 'name' parameter, so that the v.d.e links may work..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 03:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a technical restriction. The box doesn't work properly if that is omitted. I expect that if a solution is ever found to that issue that the parameter will be removed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. I'm now following up your user monobook.css idea. Sardanaphalus (talk) 19:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Such a solution would require the ability to control how many levels some content is transcluded before variables/magic words are substituted into the rendered output (I think). In this case, currently, not using the name parameter causes the VDE links to link to a template with the same name as the article the navbox is transcluded on - for instance, if "Template:Stuff" is transcluded onto "List of stuff", and there is no name parameter in the template, then the VDE links would refer to the (probably nonexistent) template "Template:List of stuff". The required fix would allow us to force the magic word to be substituted in at the navbox template's level, before it is rendered as part of the article. I don't think the payoff of the devs implementing this would be worth the cost, though. — Dino  guy  1000  17:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, probably not worth the hassle and in any case, as Chris C points out, it's not quite the same kind of parameter. Chris C has also reminded me that users have their own monobook.css page, so I'm now experimenting there with customizing how Navboxes appear. Sardanaphalus (talk) 19:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)