Template talk:Nerva–Antonine family tree

=Comments=

Adopting Hadrian
I then reverted the notation indicating that Attianus had adopted Hadrian. Stolengood reverted that change with the comment "Let this stand." I do hope we can resolve this disagreement reasonably and with a minimum of mutual frustration. Stolengood and I might be the only living people who've noticed the tiny dotted line on this template, but it does matter in potentially misrepresenting Hadrian's origins and the circumstances of his accession. The point is that Plotina arranged for Trajan to (appear to) adopt Hadrian, not for her alleged lover to do so (which would have been legally and constitutionally pointless, at least from the point of view of elevating Hadrian to the principate). I'm afraid it's incumbent upon Stolengood to demonstrate that Attianus actually adopted Hadrian, or the dotted line will have to go. Q·L·1968 ☿ 15:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Having heard no explanation, I removed the dotted line again. Stolengood restored it with the comment, "Let it stand. Let's discuss this while it stands." Fair enough, I suppose. However, it can't stand forever without justification. I look forward to hearing Stolengood's explanation. Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:36, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You'll have to give me a little time; I remember reading this somewhere -- Attianus and Plotina practically did adopt Hadrian together. It has been a while since I've read it, though, so I'm currently looking through the sources on articles to see where I found it. Much obliged to you for your patience. :-) Stolengood (talk) 02:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * No worries. It's ancient history, after all; we need be in no hurry. If it helps, the Historia Augusta describes Attianus in several places as Hadrian's tutor (guardian). Could we have another type of squiggly line for guardianship? We might be nearly maxed out with what &#123;&#123;chart&#125;&#125; could do—though we could always play around with different colours... Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:27, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Who to include
Why are Gordian III's wife and father-in-law listed? If Gordian himself had a connection with the Antonines, great, but surely his in-laws belong on a Gordian family tree, not a Nerva–Antonine one... Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:12, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The current version of the stemma is even less defensible. Its inclusion of Gordian III is based on a dodgy passage in the notoriously unreliable Historia Augusta. While the existence of Ceionia Plautia & Q. Servilius Pudens -- as well as their marriage -- is certain, I have yet to find any evidence that they had children. Except for a dubious citation of Settpani. I'd remove this branch from the stemma until further evidence for this relationship can be provided. -- llywrch (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Adding the Legend Template
I added Legend Templates at the bottom of the chart. the changes appear when I view this page, but not on the main article Hadrian. Can anybody help? Bigtk (talk) 12:40, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Is it a caching problem? Have you tried refreshing the Hadrian page and/or clearing your browser's cache? The legend looks good when I see it either on the template page or Hadrian, but maybe there's something I'm overlooking... Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I actually tried refreshing a couple times yesterday, but it didn't work then. However it is working now, so i guess shutting down and reopening the computer solved the caching problem or whatever caused it, thanks! :) Bigtk (talk) 08:01, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

A biological impossibility
I admit I missed this at least a few times before now, but if you look at the box of Marcus Aurelius' grandfather, Libo Rupilius Frugi, you will see that it asserts by a marriage to one Lucius Mindius (a male name) he had a daughter, Matidia Minor. I know of no other instance where two men are claimed to have given birth to a child. (FWIW, Annelise Freisenbruch, Caesar's Wives (New York: Free Press, 2010), pp. 160, 165 states Matidia Minor's mother was Salonia Matidia, herself the daughter of Trajan's widowed sister Marciana. Freisenbruch does not provide a name for Salonia Matidia's father.) -- llywrch (talk) 15:43, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
 * There is no error, just a misinterpretation. The diagram does not claim that Libo Rupilius Frugi and Lucius Mindius are the parents of Matidia Minor, even though it may look like it at first glance. The two were just successive (second and third) husbands to Salonia Matidia, here called Matidia. Matidia had three children (Sabina, Matidia Minor and Rupilia Faustina) with three different men, and the diagram indicates who the father was. By means of the biological impossibility of any other interpretation, the motherhood of Salonia Matidia is implied for all three of them. Renerpho (talk) 21:49, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * llywarch is perfectly right. This is a wrong, misleading, representation.--188.25.26.135 (talk) 18:01, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree that it was previously unclear. I've tweaked the chart slightly to attempt to clarify; unfortunately this is pretty much at the limit of what this template can do, and any more substantial changes would I suspect involve redrawing the chart with another system entirely (possibly doable with tables; possibly would necessitate drawing an svg image) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 08:54, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi I would just like to add that Rupilia Faustina's mother is not actually certain, there are arguments against Salonia Matidia being the woman (see the note on one of the sources on her article), and Christian Settipani has argued for it being Vitellia instead.★Trekker (talk) 09:57, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Ugh, Roman prosopography is the worst. It looks to me as though there might be several points of disagreement here: whether Salonia Matidia married Libo Rupilius Frugi at all, if Rupilia Faustina's mother was Salonia Matidia or someone else, and possibly the order of Salonia Matidia's marriages.  Am I understanding that correctly?  I'm happy to defer to people who actually understand the dispute as to how we should lay out the table; I just wanted to make it show what we intend it to show! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:17, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes that is all true. Its a very complicated question and there seems to be no consensus. Personally I think that Salonia was not Rupilia's mother (a small support for this can be seen for example on the coin on her article, she is depicted with two not three daughters there), but that is just my opinion. Personally I think maybe it would be best to leave Rupilia Faustina on the template without a box for a mother at all, just a line to her father Frugi.★Trekker (talk) 10:29, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay :) How does it look now, ? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:39, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes I think this is very good. Thank you !★Trekker (talk) 10:41, 25 June 2022 (UTC)