Template talk:Politics of Scotland

Image
Since creation this template has carried an image of the flag of Scotland. User:Astrotrain has been trying to unilaterally, without explanation, change the image to the Arms of the United Kingdom. What do other users think? --Mais oui! 10:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

In response:
 * It is standard to use the coat of arms in a politics template rather than a national flag
 * The coat of arms is actively used in politics, appearing on all Acts of Parliament, offical documents, court buildings etc
 * The Scottish Executive's arms and logo all feature the arms
 * The arms are the main image in the politics section of the main Scotland page Astrotrain 11:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What is wrong with using the Scottish arms? - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 12:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * We are using the Royal Arms in Scotland, which are actually still in use, as noted above. Astrotrain 12:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Politics of X templates I looked at show coats of arms. Is there any reason why Scotland should buck the trend ? Which coat of arms it should be can easily be determined by looking at official documents to see what they use. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer the flag, which is symbolic of the Nation of Scotland, whereas the arms of the UK are the arms of the UK Monarch, with English bias. The Scottish Arms would be more acceptable than the UK Arms, but overall I'd say the National Flag would be preferable. [[Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png]] Canæn [[Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png]] 06:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I see no reason why the Scottish Quatering has been removed in favour of the National Flag, when all the Courts, Parliament and the Executive use the Royal coat of arms of Scotland. Now some Scots may feel that Scotland should be a republic but this is an encyclopedia meant to represent reality not political points of view.  Unless I hear to the contrary I will report the continued changes as a Point of View Dispute and request a formal vote with intervention from senior editors. Davidkinnen 21:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This all came up some weeks ago: we cannot use the "Scottish Quartering" in templates, because of image licensing issues. The UK arms were also removed from Template:Politics of the United Kingdom for this reason. Please see Template talk:Politics of Scotland section, below. --Mais oui! 10:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We cannot use the Royal Coat of Arms as it is Crown Copyright however I have changed it to the Scottish Executive's logo as this is the symbol of the goverment of Scotland. --Barry[[Image:Flag of Scotland.svg|20px]]talk 21:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But Barry, the exact same rules apply to those Arms as they do to the Royal Arms: we cannot use them in templates. (In addition in must be pointed out that this template covers all Scottish politics, not just the Scottish Executive, which is only one topic in a very wide range of articles.) --Mais oui! 09:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Not only was the use of the Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom as used in Scotland not usable but using the Lion Rampant without permission from the Lord Lyon is a technically a criminal offence. I will revert to the Flag of Scotland. Davidkinnen 19:55, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The offence is not 'use' or display but rather 'usurpation'. There is a very noteworthy difference. --Breadandcheese 14:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Template use
I have been using the template in articles about Scottish Parliament constituencies. Not sure this is appropriate, as individual constituency articles are not listed by in the template itself. Is there a similar template, without This article is part of the series: (which seems to imply that the article in which the template appears should be listed as one of the series) and designed to sit at the foot of an article page? Laurel Bush 10:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC).

Free use image
Is the image used on this template free use? I was under the impression that Royal Arms and departmental logos may not be reproduced freely. Unless, of course, authorisation to reproduce the departmental logo and use it here has been obtained, but I do not see that on the image page.--Bob 17:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You are quite correct. They spotted the same issue over at the UK politics template in May, and promptly removed the Arms:
 * Template talk:Politics of the United Kingdom
 * I have restored the flag which was used until recently. --Mais oui! 22:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Parliamentary Election
I've switched the title of the Scottish Parliamentary Elections from General Election to Parliamentary Election so as to avoid confusion with the UK wide General Election for those not altogether familiar with the various elections present throughout the UK. There seems to be little activity on the talk page so I've made the changes but if anybody wants to switch it back and start a discussion, feel free. Kind Regards - Heligoland  | Talk |  Contribs 19:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Elections to the Scottish Parliament are called general elections please see this discussion Talk:Scottish Parliament election, 2007 and the Scottish Parliament election pages states that it is for the devolved parliament.--Barrytalk 21:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no consensus for the wording "General Election" on that page at all, the consensus, if anything points towards "General election to the Scottish Parliament" or some such similar wording. Kind Regards - Heligoland  | Talk |  Contribs 18:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Scottish Government
Surely the offical name of "Scottish Executive" should be used rather than the unoffical term?


 * Indeed it should, as it is the term officially used by the Scottish Executive and is the legal term (although some may dispute that it is used more widely than statute permits to refer to the entire Scottish Administration. --Breadandcheese 14:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well the new official name is "Scottish Government", Scottish Executive is now confined to contracts and legislation. -- Barryob   Vigeur de dessus  09:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Depends what you characterise as 'official' - legal documents, statute and so forth are all what I class to be official, and it's worth noting that HM Government still uses Scottish Executive. But of now Scottish Government is becoming more common in usage and is a term of self-identification, as such it should now be kept. --Breadandcheese (talk) 23:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Arms
This is not the Coat of arms of Scotland it is the Coat of arms of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland, its use in this template is wrong -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  20:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

That is obviously incorrect. These are the Royal Arms used in Scotland (which is part of the UK anyway). It's use in this template is correct since it is the arms used by the Scottish Government, and the arms that appear on all Acts of the Scottish Parliament and statutory instruments. It appears on all Scottish court buildings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.89.49 (talk) 16:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The template is Politics of Scotland not Politics of the United Kindgom, and the Scottish courts does not use the arms they use a different version without the flags the same goes for the Scotland office and the Scottish Government when it used them -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  17:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The Royal Arms are used by HM The Queen as head of state in Scotland, and also by the courts and legislation. See below for evidence. The use of the Royal Arms for Scotland is consistent with the rest of Wikipedia, and uses the arms actually used in Scotland, not defunct arms not used since 1603.


 * Court Building-, image of the arms on the High Court
 * Scottish Court Room-, image of the arms above the judge's seat
 * Legislation (the Adoption and Children (Scotland) Act 2007- passed by the Scottish Parliament)-

So, your claims are incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.89.49 (talk) 17:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It is still the UK arms hence why it is not in the infobox in the Scotland article -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  19:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Would the IP address please stop adding the UK arms into this template look at this discussion on the Scotland -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  14:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That has nothing to do with this template. This template is for politics in Scotland and as pointed out above, all the political institutions use the Royal Arms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.134.6 (talk) 14:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Eh its Politics and government of Scotland and neither the UK Parliament or the Scottish Government use those arms and the Scotland Office uses a variant. -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  14:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It has been pointed out that the institutions above use the Royal Arms: Queen, Parliament, Courts and Law- while the Government uses a variant. They do not use a defunct coat of arms. And all other politics templates use the coat of arms rather than a flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.134.6 (talk) 14:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It does still not stop it from being the Coat of arms of the United Kingdom as for defunct arms you refer to that is not the case as its banner is still used by the monarch either the coat of arms of scotland get used or the Saltire anything else is just incorrect. -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  01:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you saying that the coat of arms currently used is not the Scottish Royal Arms? Anyone can look at the evidence I posted to see that these are the Royal Arms actually used by the political instituions listed in the template. All other politics templates in Wikipedia use the Coat of arms in use, and Scotland should follow that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.68.27 (talk) 11:51, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes it is the version of the Coat of arms of the United Kindgon that is used in Scotland just as the arms shown on the politics of the UK template is the version that is used elsewhere. -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  16:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Specific sources have been provided by other editors clearly demonstrating that indeed the distinctive post-1707 Royal coat of arms of Scotland remains in official use by specifically Scottish institutions, namely the Scotland Office, the Scottish Government, Acts of the Scottish Parliament and the Courts of Scotland, yet you on the other hand have provided no actual sources to verify what has been up to this stage your personal insistence that it is actually the Coat of arms of the United Kingdom, which is quite obviusly an inherently different coat of arms, yet you continually fail to recognise this distinction. The shield you have replaced it with has absolutely no official application in any Scottish political or governmental institutions, and as such would appear to be an unjustified political statement which you repeatedly insist on making to the detriment of the topic's accuracy. Sweenato 20:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * All the courts in England and Wales and the UK Government use the other version of the UK arms does that make them the coat of arms of england and wales ? from the UK royal website The Scottish version of the Royal coat of arms, and the Scottish Government does not use the arms. -- Barryob   (Contribs)   (Talk)  20:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

"Separate Scottish and English quarterings of the Royal arms originate from the Union of the Crown in 1603.

''The Scottish version of the Royal coat of arms shows the lion of Scotland in the first and fourth quarters, with that of England being in the second. The harp of Ireland is in the third quarter.''

''A crest is not the same as a coat of arms. A crest is only one part of the full coat of arms: the three-dimensional object placed on top of the helm.'' ''The mottoes read 'In defence' and 'No one will attack me with impunity'. From the times of the Stuart kings, the Scottish quarterings have been used for official purposes in Scotland (for example, on official buildings and official publications).''"

From the source you cited above, it would appear that the Royal coat of arms of Scotland actually predate the United Kingdom itself, as they were used before Acts of Union 1707 and in fact originate from the Union of the Crowns, when the Kingdom of Scotland was a separate political entity. They derive their relatively common origins from the fact that both Kingdoms were in dynastic union under the House of Stuart, so to answer your question, I suppose it would be yes. This is demonstrated by the specifically Scottish quartering of the shield and the use of the Scottish National Motto Nemo me impune lacessit, amongst other distinctive features on the Scottish Arms. As for the other point you make, the only reason the de facto Scottish Government no longer uses the de jure Royal arms of Scotland was due to the politically motivated unilateral rebranding of the Scottish Executive carried out by the SNP after they formed their administration. In terms of the official Scotland Act 1998, which was passed by an elected legislature, they continue in offical usage. On the other hand why don't you justify the use of this erronious lion rampant shield that you insist on using, which would appear to have no actual application, except perhaps in a Scottish nationalist fantasyland. Sweenato 21:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The Scotland Act 1998 makes no mention of what the arms of the Scottish Executive uses, the UK has two coat of arms [[Image:UK Royal Coat of Arms.svg|50px]] and [[Image:Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom (Scotland).svg|50px]] the latter is a version used by the monarch for use Scotland a stipulation in the act of union that the monarch have a Scottish version of the arms the Lion rampant shield remains the Cost of arms of Scotland hence why Banner of the Royal Arms of Scotland is still used by the monarchy again see this this discussion -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  01:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

There were two different arms which were in use after the Union of Crowns and before the single entity of the United Kingdom actually existed, this one was originally the arms of the Kingdom of Scotland and  this one was used by the Kingdom of England and its subordinate principality, Wales. They were subsequently inherited by the UK for use in the relevant constituent country. I imagine the latter is now in most cases representative of the entire UK due to the fact it was the one in more widespread use due to the relative size of England and Wales vis a vis Scotland. As regards the Lion Rampant, it itself is no longer the official banner of the Monarch in Scotland. Following the Union of the Crowns in 1603 (nb. before the creation of the United Kingdom), the flag was incorporated into the Royal Standard of successive British Monarchs, namely the House of Stuart, appearing in both the first and fourth quadrants of versions used in Scotland while only appearing in the second quadrant on versions used in Wales, England and Ireland. Today the banner is only flown over Royal Residences in Scotland, but only when the Monarch is not in residence, it certainly has no official political or judicial application. As far as the Scottish Executive is concerned, I was merely pointing out that it remains the de jure title of the Scottish Government under law, hence making the point that the rebranding was as a result, politically motivated, therefore because the arms were replaced in practice by a saltire has in itself no credibility in arguing the case against the official use of the arms, which are in widespread offical use in Scottish Institutions as indicated above by another editor. Sweenato 15:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Arms - free image
I'm glad to see the return of the Scottish arms here, to bring us into line with other such infoboxes. However these seems to be a question regarding free use: it seems obvious to me that in the United States, which has no heraldic authority of laws, this is quite clearly an original work and hence properly licensed, freely. That was, after all, the reason the image was created in the first place. --Breadandcheese (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Since this issue has been raised again, any issues pertinent to heraldry - as the tags on the image make clear - are not matters of copyright. Moreover, the offence relating to use of arms in Scotland is usurption, not use. This is very clearly an original artistic work, under the same US copyright laws as everything else. There is no sensible dispute to be made as to its status or any of the other heraldic works on Wikipedia. --Breadandcheese (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Westminster elections
Why start the list of Westminster elections with 1997, rather than, say, 1708? Laurel Bush (talk) 10:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC).

Image
For some time this template has had the royal arms of Scotland as used by the government in Scotland, which is a variation of the arms used by the Scottish Parliament on its legislation. A nameless IP editor is adding the anachronistic arms of the medieval kings of Scotland before 1604, despite this being a template dealing with the Scotland of the past 400 years, and not of the middle ages and the House of Stuart's Scotland exclusively. I suggest this anachronistic nationalism should be stopped, and the official arms used by Scotland for hundreds of years both as an independent kingdom and as a nation in union be used. GPinkerton (talk) 10:11, 20 December 2020 (UTC)