User:Chzz/footie

Summary of issue
I believe it is appropriate, and within all Wikipedia policy, to add appropriate, sourced facts to an article about an event such as a football game, whilst the game is in progress.

I also believe that undoing or reverting such edits goes against Wikipedia policy.

Walter Görlitz, and some other users, refute this and assert they will continue to remove such edits.

I am particularly concerned because new users are likely to be attracted to such articles, and I would hate them to be put off editing at an early stage if such valid edits are summarily removed.

Desired outcome

 * Either

-Walter Görlitz, and the other users expressing the same opinion, accept that the edits are legitimate, and agree not to undo any such edits in future,


 * Or

-A new policy is created to justify their undo


 * Or

-Appropriate measures are taken to ensure such undo-edits are not permitted


 * Or

-Someone explains to me that I'm wrong, and I accept it and eat humble pie

Details of events


The 2011 UEFA Champions League Final football game took place on 28 May 2011 between 18:45 UDT and approx. 20:34 UDT.

Whilst watching the game, I looked at the article, and updated the score;


 * 19:59 (→Details: update score. :-(

That was undone by Walter Görlitz;
 * 20:01 →Details: as per WP:RECENT Wikipedia is not a scoreboard.

I added it again, with a ref;
 * 20:09 (→Details: add back, with ref. No reason why Wikipedia cannot present a verifiable, accurate piece of information - even if it is 'current'

Again, it was removed by the same user;
 * 20:10 (Undid revision 431381844 by Chzz (talk) You're right . Add it at full-time

(At this point, I noticed other similar edits had been removed - noted further down this page)

20:19 I began discussion on the talk page Talk:2011_UEFA_Champions League Final

20:25 I raised my concern on Walter Görlitz's talk page; 20:26 Walter Görlitz removed that keep it for teh article's talk page
 * 

21:23 Walter Görlitz started Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football, and discussion ensued.

Other users -, - seemed to agree with the premise that "live scores" should be banned.

I tried to explain that there was no policy supporting that position. I sought further input from Village Pump.

Several users supported my position, and after a few days I asked on Walter_Görlitz' talk page, Has the discussion, thus far, convinced you that it is invalid to remove edits which happen to be 'live scores', or do we need to get more clarification on the issue? 

Walter Görlitz removed that from talk  and responded emphatically on the project talk, Wikipedia is still not a scoreboard. Period. Nothing you say can convince me that this should change. If people continue to misuse Wikipedia, Chzz too, they should be warned and then banned if it continues. . Another user,, agreed

---

I'd noticed that, during the game, other editors' updates had been similarly treated;
 * 19:19 updated the scorers
 * 19:20 This was commented out by


 * 19:33 added the score and scorers with 'match in progress'   and 20:00 (after my own edit)
 * 20:01 All those changes, and my own, were commented out by Walter Görlitz


 * 20:16 / 20:18 updated info on yellow card/substitutions
 * 20:20 Those 2 edits were reverted as vandalism by Walter Görlitz (20:22 Walter Görlitz did reinstate the subs/yellow card, but left out the score )


 * 20:25 Ajj1192 put the score back
 * 20:27 Walter Görlitz removed (commented out) the score again, →Details: against WP:RECENT and WP Footbal group policy.
 * (WP:RECENT is an essay; and I have no idea what "WP Footbal group policy" refers to; there's no such thing, of course)


 * 20:29 / 20:30 Ajj1192 Tried to update again
 * 20:31 Walter Görlitz commented out the score again