User:Gonnym/sandbox/Highway 2

Issues

 * 1) "District" column - Fix disambiguation for "Central District".
 * 2) "District" column - Figure out how to deal with "Judea and Samaria Area".
 * 3) "Location" column - Add an option to add 2 cities without needing to use "location_special".
 * 4) "Name" - Add an option to translate the name and decide on format. My suggestion is the name in Hebrew surrounded by brackets underneath the English name.
 * 5) "KM" and "Mile" columns - Column title should be spelled in the same style, either unit names or unit symbols.
 * 6) If unit symbols is preferred, then Template:abbr should be used for their names.
 * 7) "KM" and "Mile" columns - Why is the data aligned right? Either align left or center should look much better.
 * 8) "KM" and "Mile" columns - Decide and formalize where the measurement is done - at the ramp point or at the intersection point.
 * 9) If it's at the intersection point, does the measurement continue with the road going back to the main road, or does it go back to the original ramp?
 * 10) "Destinations" column - Should roads be listed on seperate lines? This should increase readability and will also make the road images be placed next to the actual road and not near the first road listed.
 * 11) "Destinations" column - Decide and formalize how entries are included in the list.
 * 12) "sub1_ref" - Hardcode the reference as it will be the same (and best official source) for all Israel tables.
 * 13) "sub2_ref" - Hardcode the reference as it will be the same (and best official source) for all Israel tables.
 * 14) Images - Missing image for Route 6651.
 * 15) Images - Small images are used for Highway 1, 4 and 5, making them very hard to read. One color in normal size should be better than 2 very small ones. Also, looking at the official map, these roads only use 1 color, with blue for 1 and 5 and red for 2 and 4.
 * 16) Images - Is there a standard image size? Highway 23 is big and similar in size to the green Routes (541, 553, 721, etc), while Highway 57 is smaller and similar in size to Highway 65, 70 and 20 and the 4 numbered roads (5710, 5720, 7110, etc). Would seem to me that the best size for easy reading would be the bigger green icons (541).

is it OK for me to comment here?
 * Yes of course! --Gonnym (talk) 05:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) This can be hardcoded
 * 2) This can also be hardcoded
 * 3) Foo and Bar should give you "Foo–Bar line".  city lets you change it to "Foo-Bar city line'.
 * ISRint does not have support for this. Do you know what subtemplate uses this so I can see the code used? --Gonnym (talk) 11:47, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * can you help set up with the module?  I'm pretty sure the code resides in Module:Jctint/core, which is what most XXXint templates use. –Fredddie™ 02:02, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That code is actually in Module:Jctint/USA. It probably needs to be upmerged. If I remember, I'll do it during my break. -happy5214 18:00, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * any update on this? --Gonnym (talk) 21:58, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * My break just started! It's on my to-do list. My goal is to have it done by the first week of January. -happy5214 11:59, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) As far as I know, this has never been an issue at FAC.
 * Probably because no one brought it up. Both consistency and accessibility are ignored here for no real reason. --Gonnym (talk) 05:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * We used to not even convert mileposts in U.S. articles until it came up at FAC. Now we don't even think twice about it.  When we started converting, the headers were "Mile" and "km" but we changed it to "mi" by request.  I found why it was like that on this page and took care of it. –Fredddie™ 06:20, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Right aligned is the default behavior of Template:Convert, so it was copied.  That being said, if every line has consistent precision, the decimal points line up.
 * 2) Personally I try to use where the centerlines of the roads intersect. Another option is to start the junction where the ramp exits the highway to where the entrance ramp comes back.  If you do ramp to ramp, be sure to use km and km2.
 * 3) Having the road signs all be on the left is MOS:ICON in action.
 * Could you quote the specific part that says that? I've re-read it several times and can't seem to find it. --Gonnym (talk) 05:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, so it doesn't specifically say it, but I believe it's my understanding that it's the top two reasons under the inappropriate use heading. Basically, don't disrupt text with icons and they're just decoration anyway. –Fredddie™ 06:20, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) I feel like I've mentioned this to you before, but if you can find measured drawings of the signs on the MoT website, I can make new images.  Something like this.
 * I think you are giving too much credit to my country :) I'll see if something like that even exists. --Gonnym (talk) 05:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I've found some things by sheer luck. I can't read Hebrew (obviously) and Google Translate only does so much. –Fredddie™ 06:20, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I found this the page after p. 141 (p. 262 in the PDF numbering). Does this help you? Do you need me to translate any part of it? --Gonnym (talk) 07:14, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * this is perfect! I apologize that I haven't got back to you sooner about this. Translation is not really necessary as I've figured out the dimensions I need.  The only other thing I need is the "official" colors, which seem to be listed in Israeli Standard 2247.  I have a good idea of what the color standard will look like (it won't include handy hex codes), so my gut instinct is to use the same colors that are used here in the US. –Fredddie™ 21:33, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * this 12899 replaced 2247. I couldn't fine the final version only the draft one. Not sure exactly if the color values are even there. --Gonnym (talk) 22:24, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I've found some things by sheer luck. I can't read Hebrew (obviously) and Google Translate only does so much. –Fredddie™ 06:20, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I found this the page after p. 141 (p. 262 in the PDF numbering). Does this help you? Do you need me to translate any part of it? --Gonnym (talk) 07:14, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * this is perfect! I apologize that I haven't got back to you sooner about this. Translation is not really necessary as I've figured out the dimensions I need.  The only other thing I need is the "official" colors, which seem to be listed in Israeli Standard 2247.  I have a good idea of what the color standard will look like (it won't include handy hex codes), so my gut instinct is to use the same colors that are used here in the US. –Fredddie™ 21:33, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * this 12899 replaced 2247. I couldn't fine the final version only the draft one. Not sure exactly if the color values are even there. --Gonnym (talk) 22:24, 28 October 2018 (UTC)


 * 1) Likewise, I can make new images.  Typically images are side-by-side not one atop the other ( for example)
 * Really? I think all the Israeli ones I saw were atop each other. Side-by-side keeps them the same size which is great. --Gonnym (talk) 05:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I meant in . If we needed to, we could put the images atop each other for the infobox, but keep them side-by-side for Jct. –Fredddie™ 06:20, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Again, with a measured drawing, all the images would be made the same, so image size would no longer be an issue.  I think the  default is 20px high, but that can be adjusted.
 * I hope I answered some of your questions. –Fredddie™ 23:25, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
 * You helped a lot! The problem is that nothing happened with the RfC so, all the work Happy5214 did with setting this up and the potential fixes you suggested can't even be implemented. --Gonnym (talk) 05:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Road signs

 * SVG:ISR-FW-4.svgISR-HW-70.svgISR-HW-541.svgISR-HW-5720.svg
 * PNG:ISR-FW-4.svgISR-HW-70.svgISR-HW-541.svgISR-HW-5720.svg

what do you think of these? The SVG files were drawn to spec by me today, the PNG files were existing previously. –Fredddie™ 00:48, 29 October 2018 (UTC) I went ahead and created all the files. I realized once I was on my last batch that I didn't really add sources like was discussed. That's easy to fix, though. I had to create a few types and reorganize others, which will be beneficial to us going forward:
 * 1) The signs looks great! Did you use the font Triumvirate Bold for the numbers (p. 60 of the PDF (p. 54 on the actual page) - 4.5.4)?
 * 2) The blue and red colors seem a bit off though. Look at the official gov map (linked in the table above) - it uses the neon bright colors.
 * 3) Also, it seems the images are smaller in compared to the other ones with the same 20px size. right?
 * --Gonnym (talk) 07:45, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Heh, no I used Helvetica bolded. It looked close enough for me, but that's an easy fix.
 * I used colors from the US MUTCD. I will extract colors from the PDF.
 * You should look at it this way: the ones I drew were measured and drawn to the specs. The other files are likely wrong. –Fredddie™ 00:20, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The colors and font have been updated. –Fredddie™ 00:44, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
 * it looks perfect now! Good job! --Gonnym (talk) 09:10, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Looking at the edit history on the previous number 4 sign png, it seems that people change it a lot without really mentioning why. Maybe it's worth it when you're done for a bot to go over all the images you've added and tag them with a description or something mentioning the sources of the color, font and dimensions? --Gonnym (talk) 09:13, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
 * or  only gives the blue shield
 * or  only gives the red shield
 * gives both blue and red shields
 * also works for the routes that are blue and green
 * only gives the green shield
 * only gives the black shield

Likewise, subtemplates for were similarly edited to provide the same experience. Now it's just a matter of switching over to use Jct. –Fredddie™ 00:40, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks great! Amazing work! --Gonnym (talk) 08:27, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Template:ISRinttop
, can you help me making this template fit the needs of the Israel system? Then I can add the missing documentation to it. --Gonnym (talk) 09:31, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. What needs to change? –Fredddie™ 23:19, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
 * "District" column - Hardcoding Central District (Israel) as Central District; and Judea and Samaria Area to not be linked as Judea and Samaria Area District.
 * Fixed. --Gonnym (talk) 11:34, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * "sub1_ref" and "sub2_ref" columns - Hardcode the reference.
 * Fixed. --Gonnym (talk) 11:40, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It seems the Israel editors are adding the native name, so if that is needed then a "native_name" param should be added. The result should probably be a line under name with brackets around it (probably better than a separate column just for it).
 * Also, it seems the conversation died out about the template:abbr template, but everyone was in favor of it, so I think that can safely be added. --Gonnym (talk) 08:33, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

ISRinttop

Icons
(copied the discussion down here)

"Destinations" column - Should roads be listed on separate lines? This should increase readability and will also make the road images be placed next to the actual road and not near the first road listed.
 * Having the road signs all be on the left is MOS:ICON in action.
 * Could you quote the specific part that says that? I've re-read it several times and can't seem to find it. --Gonnym (talk) 05:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, so it doesn't specifically say it, but I believe it's my understanding that it's the top two reasons under the inappropriate use heading. Basically, don't disrupt text with icons and they're just decoration anyway. –Fredddie™ 06:20, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I've re-read both points
 * Do not use icons in general article prose: Icons should not be used in the article body, thus: "After publishing, Jackson moved to Bristol, England, in April 2004." This breaks up the continuity of the text, distracting the reader.
 * Encyclopedic purpose: Icons should serve an encyclopedic purpose and not merely be decorative. They should provide additional useful information on the article subject, serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension, or improve navigation. Icons should not be added only because they look good: one reader's harmless decoration may be another reader's distraction. An icon is purely decorative if it does not improve comprehension of the article subject and serves no navigational function. Where icons are used for layout purposes only, consider using bullet points as an alternative. Do not put icons in section headings; this is an accessibility problem.
 * both don't seem to talk about it. If you look at the infobox for a war, as an example Wars of the Roses, you'll see that each flag is used on its own line, as are the flags at 2018 FIFA World Cup. If anything, I think that throwing all road signs together makes readability harder as it loses its reference. I tried testing the accessibility with a chrome extension screen reader but that didn't help as it seems Module:Jct doesn't even add an alt value to to the image (unless I missed something), so any concern of accessibility is pretty much null at this point. --Gonnym (talk) 17:17, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * writes the images as, which as far as screen readers go, makes the image invisible.   might know more about that than I do. –Fredddie™ 02:21, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * A lot of the practices have been informed by how the actual highway guide signs are formatted in the US. Many other countries have similar signage, so the concepts translate over fairly well. In short, highways aren't denoted with text names, they're displayed using their marker images on the signs. We need a convenient way to link to them without running afoul of attribution reasons, and not all readers know that "US 41.svg" means "US 41", so we use "US 41.svg US 41". Now concurrent highways have their markers displayed side by side on signs, so we prefer the same practice, ergo "US 41.svgM-28.svg US 41/M-28".

In some countries, the equivalent to the marker image is a colored text panel, but that colored panel still serves the same basic purpose; it uses color instead of shape to convey the extra meaning.

As for using  on the graphics, that's done to skip them with screen readers. The most important bits are the text next to the graphics, although there are some recognizability enhancements for sighted readers when we use the graphics as an adjunct. Those recognizability enhancements are missing for the non-sighted, so based on various guidelines, it's best to suppress the graphics given the relative small size and relative redundancy to the accompanying text.  Imzadi 1979  →   02:36, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for the response from you both! As I'm not actively editing in this field I won't be pushing any change, but from what I understand from your points and from the code in, it does seem that it does not follow MOS:ACCIM - for Israel signs as an example, the color conveys extra meaning which is not part of the destination text, which a sighted reader will get, while someone using a screen reader will not even know is there. Anyways, thanks again for the detailed answers. --Gonnym (talk) 15:54, 2 November 2018 (UTC)