User:JackyR/African language names - current usage

African language names: survey of current usage
Please feel free to add info under Comments (below) if you're not comfortable editing Wikitables!

This table is for collecting data. It should not be seen as prescriptive in any way.


 * Fnl = Funnel news search engine, searching RSA online sources ]
 * exp = personal experience (important because of systemic bias in means of publication)
 * IMC = International Marketing Council of South Africa. Retrieved 17 Feb 2006.
 * PSALB = Pan South African Language Board. Retrieved 17 Feb 2006.
 * ODSAE = Oxford Dictionary of South African English (2002)
 * User:ZyXoas = Sesotho L1, English L1 speaker
 * User:Joziboy = English L1 speaker, Zulu learner: South African
 * User:JackyR = English L1 speaker: British, lived in Botswana, Zimbabwe
 * Irene = Ndebele L1, Nyanja L2, English L2 speaker, Setswana learner: Zimbabwean, lived in Malawi, Botswana
 * JTF = "Johnston, Thomas F. 1975. "Tsonga musical performance in cultural perspective (South Africa)." Anthropos. 70..761-799. source: Aflib.ref. keywords: Bantu, Chitsonga, Antropologi, Sydafrika"
 * DB = David Bunn @Uni of Western Cape
 * Afrl = Afrilingo translation software (based in Bloem, RSA)
 * News24 = News24.com, South African online news agency

Comments
Please add freely... JackyR 16:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * : Looking at the forms in the English wiki (the last two columns), I wouldn't change any of them from what they currently read, if that's what you're asking. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ta. Are you happy with Sesotho, then? (see Talk:Sesotho language.) Cos if you are, I am. JackyR 23:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

-User:ZyXoas12:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's Xitsonga, not "Chitsonga" - change it. No "discussion", no debacle, no world war 3, Just change it. I know what I'm talking about, which is rare with people involved in African Languages on Wikipedia.


 * Cool, thanks for that. I'm recording all inputs on this, rather than deleting some in favour of others (except my own cock-ups, of course). This bit is intelligence-gathering, not the final Wiki article. I'm hoping to get a range of (English language) refs – personal experience, gov docs, newpapers, etc. The actual Wiki articles can then draw on this resource and, if necessary, record the use of more than one convention. I'm reffing your input as "personal experience" because I don't know better: if you wanna throw blogs, newspapers, dictionaries at me (ow!), go for it! Cheers, JackyR 22:39, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

There appears to be an emerging trend in South African English (as used in the media) to refer to the various languages and ethnic groups using their own grammatical rules. For example the Sotho people are often reffered to as the BaSotho on radio. This is consistent with English allowing adoptive words to obey the grammar of the originating language for example the plural of the Hebrew derived word "cherub" is "cherubim". Anon, 16 Ferbruary 2006
 * Copied from Talk:Zulu language.


 * I see you have Basotho down as a language - that's not right. Basotho isn't the name of the language, it means 'the Sotho people'. The old name for Lesotho was Basotholand (ie land of the Sotho people), much like KZN was Zululand. The language, as you have there, is Sesotho. Joziboy 28 Feb 2006, 19:21 UTC


 * Yeah, I know. I was including it as an eg of prefix+root in use in English (but obviously failed to be clear about this). Will rephrase. JackyR 19:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool, I see what you mean now. I didn't really think about how confusing all of this must be for people outside of Africa until I looked at this table - there really isn't any rule to it. We English-speakers drop the Ki- for Swahili and the Chi- for Shona, capitalise the root in isiZulu, isiXhosa, siSwati etc, but don't capitalise the root in Setswana, Sesotho or Tshivenda. And which names retain their native form seems completely arbitrary (I know I'd say Venda, Zulu, Swazi and Xhosa, but Sesotho and Setswana). All very odd! Joziboy 1 March 2006, 16:28 UTC

Right, well regarding languages, my OED calls them isiZulu, isiXhosa and isiNdebele (in fact, it says Zulu is 'another term for isiZulu').It calls Swahili Swahili, calls Swazi siSwati, Herero Herero, Tshivenda, Xitsonga, says Tswana is 'another term for Setswana, Sepedi is 'the core dialect of Sesotho sa Leboa ', and calls Sesotho Sesotho, and Shona Shona. It's the 2002 edition of the Oxford Dic of SA English. Hope that helps! Can't remember which other languages are on your list - I'll have a look. Joziboy 27 Feb 2006, 20:07 UTC Yup, Chichewa, 'another term for Nyanja(the language)', it doesn't have Rundi, Kirundi, Nyoro or Gikuyu, it calls Kikongo Kikongo, and Luganda and it calls Ndonga Ovambo (It says Owambo is a variant spelling of Ovambo). Joziboy 27 Feb 2006, 20:25 UTC
 * ''Copied from User talk:Joziboy.


 * Ah, well if you as an English-speaking South African would say Venda, Zulu, etc, I'll add that as psnl exp, if I may. The next Q would be, if the ODSAE says Ovambo, how did you know it was referring to Ndonga?! Does the dic cross-ref? If so, does it deprecate one usage, or what? And sorry, didn't get your meaning re Luganda. Ta again for all this :-) JackyR 17:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Because there was no Ndonga in the dictionary, I looked up the other variants you had up on the table (owambo etc) and it referred me to Ovambo. Oh sorry, I didn't know you wanted all the names in the dictionary! Thought you were trying to find the 'most correct' term? Because for all of the SA languages (and Swahili) it has both (eg Zulu and isiZulu), but only an explanation for one, which is the one I then assumed it thinks is correct/more common and gave to you. For example, under Xhosa it has: 1) a member of a South African people traditionally living in the Eastern Cape Province. 2) another term for isiXhosa. Then, under isiXhosa it has: n. The Bantu language of the Xhosa people. In both entries, for etymology it refers to isiXhosa ('Origin: the name in isiXhosa'). So from all that I took it to mean that isiXhosa is favoured. Oh and re Luganda, I just meant that that's what it's called in the dictionary: Luganda :) Joziboy 1 March 2006, 18:15 UTC


 * Thanks. Yes, at this stage I'm pretty much just trying to record stuff. Then we can look at it and go, "Hmm, how should Wiki reflect this?" But the 2002 ODSAE must surely count more heavily than, eg, a non-dictionary published outside Africa decades ago. JackyR 20:48, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Me again! :) I was just running through the dic again to check I'd told you the right stuff. It's all right except for Sotho. The dictionary has entries for both Sesotho and Sesotho sa Leboa (and Sepedi, but you have that already), but for Sotho it says: the Bantu languages spoken by these peoples. Which makes me think it's an umbrella term, like Nguni. Joziboy 2 March 2006, 09:22 UTC

Suggestions for box
Many African languages use prefixes to denote noun class

Trial of boxes with different languages
Not great for Ndebele.


 * Hi JackyR - O'Neil gives person of as iNdebele (i.e. an Ndebele person) (pl amaNdebele). Place of is kwaNdebele, surely, as in kwaZulu; or the locative emaNdebeleni? Humansdorpie 14:55, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that - I think mine are rubbish, cos I took them over the phone from an Ndebele-speaking friend, without asking spellings or checking I'd heard right. I keep allowing myself to be distracted from projects, but will return to this when I've cleared some stuff... JackyR 16:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

"iNdebele"? 2 b honest I've never heard the singular of "amaNdebele" but "iNdebele" is problematic for 2 reasons - would you like another grammar lesson?... Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)