User:Wotnow


 *  THIS USER PAGE IS UNDERGOING A BIT OF RECONSTRUCTION. It will still have something to say on citations, what I've learned and how I use them; it will still give credit where due; and it will still retain some section headings that have links from other pages. But apart from that, it's time for a bit of a revamp. I just don't know how it will shape up, within the limitations of my ability and available time. The page has been provisionally updated to the next occurrance of this orange lettering.

Jeez, the reconstruction is taking a long time. But, I'm still around as at 2022. Just flat out making my life work. But I aim to be back Wotnow (talk) 00:43, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Section break
(not coffee break)

A couple of lifelong quotes
This is the user page of Wotnow, which is occasionally used as a sandbox for experimentation in Wikibizzos. Who is, or was, Wotnow? Just someone who found life fascinating, but never found a way to make it work.

Wikibizzos defined
Wikibizzos comprise whatchamacallits in Wikipedia when thingamajigging, with of course, Wikibizzos.

Examples of Wikibizzoing
This page largely describes the use of List-defined references, originally notified as active on 21 September 2009. The purpose of list-defined references is to group references in one area in the editing window, declutter the article, and make editing of the article and references easier. This is highlighed in the discussions of July 2009, which can be accessed via the above Signpost link.

This page reflects my initiation to that method, which precedes my awareness of the Signpost links. The page evolved along with my awareness of LDR and citation techniques in general, and my attempts to address various issues that arose along the way, in such a fashion as to be a useful resource to myself and anyone else who might benefit. It's an ongoing process of course.

While the page discusses list-defined references, and I do use them, I don't slavishly follow that approach, nor indeed any approach. This applies also to my use of citation templates. I use them to the extent that they seem helpful. And when I use them, I have one goal only: to get them to display the reference information in a satisfactory manner. For some citations this is straightforward. For some web-sites, and some texts - especially some older books and journals - a bit of creative thinking is required.

The gold standard in referencing
There is only one gold standard. A reader knowing absolutlely nothing other than the information provided in the reference should be able to track down the original source. In research, there are few things more frustrating than trying to track down a source from a reference that is too vague. This applies to books, journals, file documents, anything at all, and most especially when trying to track down old, obscure information - or 'signal' - amongst a vast background of 'noise'. So in my use of citation templates, the only thing I want to achieve is to have it display the information in a suitable fashion. I began using 'freehand' references between ref tags. I then "borrowed" citation methods from articles, and became ever more conversant with templates. I still occasionally find myself abandoning templates for a few citations and just doing them 'freehand' the way I started out. Still, I persist with templates because I often find them helpful, and because I keep learning new things. Indeed, I can now write citation templates off the top of my head, only occasionally needing to go to help pages or other articles for ideas.

Citation fundamentalists
I have noticed an element of pedantic fundamentalism amongst some editors, which can be reduced to this: "X citation method is the way, the truth and the light". I think this is erroneous. An analysis of my template use shows that I've gravitated towards the most generic templates that do what is required. So, "citation" templates tend to present the referencing information just the same as "cite x" templates, but with a lot less stuffing around. None of this means I'm some guru at citations. But it does illustrate a point, which Stephen Jay Gould consistently made: seek the general from the specific.

I expect to attempt further restructures, and I have no idea how that will pan out. Meantime, you can still learn from this page, if that is what you are here to do, because the issues I've worked through may be similar to what you're working through.

My initiation to LDR
After noticing User:Chienlit's implementation of a reference update for the Vincent Priessnitz article on 15 November 2009, I tried it myself. I found it makes articles much easier to read when editing. It also makes it easier to fix up the references themselves, and to pick up errors in both text and refs. After trying this style in the Malvern water article, GyroMagician kindly demonstrated, on the Malvern water discussion page, how to make a simple template as below, from which bits of Wikitext can be readily copied and pasted into the article being edited.

How I do list-defined referencing
This section demonstrates the easiest way that I have found so far to generate list-defined references. It is an amalgam of what I've learned from others, including GyroMagician and Chienlit, my own practice, and some recent learning from discussions about list-defined references.

If I'm adding a reference, I find it easier to open a window to edit the entire article, so that I can access the reference section and the section I'm editing, and most importantly, so I can see how the references look at preview. I find I need to do that no matter what referencing method I'm using. So the fact of having to work in two places for list-defined references doesn't affect the way I'd normally edit when referencing anyway.


 * First, the 'References' section header, after which goes

Note that if you are transforming from embedded references, they'll continue to show up even if you leave them in place. So if you want, you can use this simply to relocate particularly lengthy refs (per the William Shakespeare article), or clusters of refs, and leave others in place.


 * Then, insert the full reference where the dots are in the, using standard, all-you-can-eat Wikibizzos. Remember the closing brackets, so the references show up.


 * You can list as many references as you want to between the brackets. In practice, I lay them out like this, to keep the opening and closing reflist parameters clear of the references, so I don't stuff them up when editing the references.

That's the reference prepared. You have to do that anyway, whether you embed them in the article text or group them as list-defined references.


 * Next, copy the lead tag of your reference, and paste it into the article text thus

Some editors use for the inline section, but its use remains contentious, whereas the  does the same job. My recommendation is that if you do wish to implement List-Defined References, you use the templates
 * Next, insert a forward slash at the end of "myRefname" in the inline citation in the article text, so it looks like this (I made it big so you can see the orange slash).


 * Second-to-last, do a preview, to make sure your references display correctly. This is recommended no matter which referencing style you use. If all is well, save your changes.
 * If there are errors, fix them, do a final preview, and save.
 *  This page has been provisionally updated up to this point.

GyroMagician's neat trick
Before we became aware that this technique was called list-defined references, who had developed it, or where the resources were, GyroMagician and I set about thrashing out the pros and cons of this referencing style, and figuring out how to make it easier for ourselves to utilise. Early in that process, before we became aware of   span tags, and before I became aware of how to make displays as above, GyroMagician demonstrated how to display templates using PRE tags. He also demonstrated how to tame a Hansard reference, which seemed to me recalcitrantly hiding behind parliamentary privilege, and not complying with my attempts at Wikibizzo. Thus:
 * Here's a neat trick: Template:Cite hansard - as I said, Wikipedia is a monster, it's all there, but sometimes it takes a while to find ;-)
 * To format text so the wiki won't format it (if you follow my meaning), put the text inside PRE tags - it appears on the standard toolbar as a W in a red circle with a red line through it.

where STANDARD CITE TEMPLATE is one of these. Very neat.

This inspired what could be called The Wikibizzo Compliance poem, or perhaps just The Hansard (with apologies to Edgar Allan Whatsisname). And lets face it, having a bit of fun along the way is what keeps lots of editors motivated.


 * Once upon a midnight dreary, while I edited, weak and weary,
 * Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
 * While I plodded, keyboard tapping, Hansard caught me, nearly napping
 * As with energy still sapping, applying Wikibizzo cure.
 * "'Tis but text", so I muttered, "Comply with Wikibizzo sure?"
 * Quoth the Hansard "Nevermore"


 * But setting forth with no more to show,
 * GyroMagician tried Wikibizzo.
 * Hansard verily complied.
 * And all recalcitrance, it died.
 * Need more Wikibizzo-cure?
 * Quoth the Hansard "Nevermore"

Signposts, flying dragons, Mae din  voyages, and Chienlit chivalry
After fleshing out some information in an earlier version of this user page about using what I now know are called list-defined references, I wanted to know about the origins of this method. I first picked it up by copying Chienlit's usage in the Vincenz Priessnitz article. Chienlit's first use was on 17 October 2009, in the Hubert Latham article. But after a series of communications,    I learned that it traces back beyond Chienlit's first usage.

Or: Prehistory of the Chienlit innovation
That is, there is a prehistory of the Chienlit innovation. In a show of chivalry, Chienlit's inspiration is credited to Mae din . In turn, Mae din  reports becoming enlightened by the Wikipedia Signpost in September 2009, then embarking on a brief voyage of re-referencing as she familiarised herself with the method. The Signpost links show the innovation traces back to July 2009, when there was extensive discussion, followed by a straw poll, resulted in strong support for the innovation, and subsequent implementation by User:Dragons flight.

Or: Wotnow
So what now? Before the prehistory enlightenment, Chienlit and I toyed with a couple of terms by which we might call the technique, just for the hell of it, and to make it easier to discuss. I thought of the Chienlit innovation. Chienlit suggested Maed Innov , and I then thought maybe Mae din -Chienlit (not to be confused with made-in-China). But that was before Mae <font color="#008080">din  credited Dragons flight. At this point it starts to get messy: maybe Dragons flight-Maedin-Chienlit.

The name
List-defined references is the help pages name given to the Dragons flight-Maedin-Chienlit innovation, which we now know courtesy of <font color="#4B0082">Mae <font color="#008080">din 's reply. Doesn't have quite the same ring as other options, but there you go.

But the exercise below was far from fruitless. If you read the link to the July 2009 discussions, you'll see that others made similar observations, and came to similar conclusions as us, about circumstances where list-defined references could prove helpful. Different people independently reaching similar conclusions in different times suggests some soundness to the idea. It's a good test of the processes by which one arrives at one's own conclusions.

The world need not change or end (at least not before tea time)
The use of the template to facilitate list-defined references does not require a total change of behaviour by contributing editors. It is but one more handy trick which can make some editing tasks easier. Nothing more, and nothing less.

The style is robust enough that one can implement it to solve a specific problem, such as removal of lengthy citations from the article text, while leaving everything else unchanged. Or grouping references in one place for ease of editing, error detection (apart from working through errors you have detected, errors you weren't even aware of become much easier to detect), and maintenance.


 * For example, this reference, is this style  . So too is this, which is this,    copied from the Shakespeare article. And this reference is this   , from Paleontology. In the Paleontology article, the full reference is embedded in the text. I have chosen to use it in 'list-defined' manner here. Both displays look exactly the same to a reader.


 * The chief difference between the above three examples is what is placed between the ref tags


 * List-defined references could also be facilitated using r templates, like this, which was this   copied from History of the Earth. However, some controversy surrounds the use of the r template, so if your goal is simply to generate list-defined references, you would be safer to use the  templates which do the same job and are uncontroversial.


 * Now this reference, is this format   also copied unchanged from the Shakespeare article. It uses the Harvard citation style, which can be used with a single reference section, or with a notes and bibliography section, as per the Shakespeare article. I have added a bibliography section on this page to facilitate that style. But the inline citation sits in this page along with the other styles, creates no conflict in doing so, and shows up as normal.


 * But this reference, is this format   also copied unchanged from the Shakespeare article. Never mind if it's an imperfect reference. It does the job anyway, and like the other references added, is here to illustrate a point.

And the point? The is just one potentially useful method, and the templates for generating references are just useful tools. A wholesale change in style isn't necessary. We can utilise these things it insofar as they are useful, or not at all. No harm is done either way. In the same article, some editors can utilise it to solve some problems by grouping references out of the way, while others continue with the style they are familiar with, and use their contribution to tackle other issues. And there's nothing new even about that. Many articles have multiple behind-the-scenes editor styles, which show up the same to the reader.

List-defined references and Harvard style: Both two-step processes
List-defined references are a two-step process. You use for the inline citation, and  in the  section. That's the primary difference between list-defined references and the style that places within the article.

But note that the Harvard citation style, which can be used with or without a separate notes and bibliography section, also uses the same two steps. It has an inline citation, and the references are grouped together at the bottom of the article. So with or without separate notes and bibliography sections, it can serve the same purpose as the list-defined references. You can find articles where it does this very nicely. But it can add a layer of referencing complexity that does not warrant the extra fiddling about imposed on editors.

This conclusion was reached after referencing experimentation with the Malvern, Worcestershire article. The discussion shows how this evolved, as well as being quite a good example of a good faith dialogue by editors genuinely trying to work something out. Please note that reference to other articles in that dialogue is not intended as disparaging. It serves purely the purpose of comparison to facilitate discussion. That is self-evident if you read the whole dialogue.

The Harvard templates can also pose some technical issues and a number of broken harvnb refs. One of the problems I found when we tried to implement the harvnb style, was that the templates, while useful in some ways, can be finnicky, and can detract from the goal of getting the reference to display the way you want them to, which must always be the goal.

Template or not template? That is the question
The main difference between the Harvard style and list-defined references is that the latter can be used with or without templates, while the Harvard style as utilised in Wikipedia "relies" on a series of templates.

But of course, you don't have to use templates to cite in Harvard style. You can cite Harvard style writing free-hand references (between the ref tags), just as was done for years in books and articles that use the style (there's probably computer programs to do this now, but 'free-hand' will still abound). And it's a safe bet there are examples of 'free-hand Harvard style' to be found in Wikipedia, as there would be people who know the style well, but who are unfamiliar with, or even bamboozled by, Wiki markup. The templates help to use the style. But the templates are not the style. They are tools to help facilitate the style. And tools exist to serve us, not enslave us (though humans have a long history of enslaving themselves to things they invent or acquire).

Similarly, list-defined reference templates are about a useful tool for those who recognise and wish to use it. And if one or two individuals implement it in an article, then:
 * (a) other editors should not feel compelled to use it, as
 * (b) it will sit easily with their own style, but
 * (c) it's a tool for them to use if it benefits them, and
 * (d) there is information on the innovation for them to consider if they want, so
 * (e) they should at the very least not feel threatened by others using it, nor
 * (f) compelled to prevent or sanction others from utilising it given that
 * (g) it will do no harm and
 * (h) contains a potential good that can be capitalised upon at any time in the future.

Must templates be used in an exactly prescribed manner?
In short, no. This has nothing to do with pontifical proclamations on my part. Rather, it comes down to observation, practice, and logic. And if I've arrived at that conclusion, others will have too. Any citation template of any sort, is but a tool to assist in formatting the reference to be displayed. And completely regardless of 'technical' pedantics which can be sometimes misleading, the real issue is the question of the reference itself. That is, the information it contains, and how that information is displayed.

Some references are quite simple, and comply nicely with template heuristics. Some references are complex and unwieldy. Especially from earlier eras, and/or for reference books which have mutliple publishers in different countries and/or publication variations which can cause confusion. The trans-Atlantic publications of Grays Anatomy is a good example where confusion is known to have occurred.

Another issue that can arise is changes in urls over time. Where an online book has been cited, this may mean that the online book cannot be accessed via the url provided. However, if the online reference was physically checked at time of creation as a scanned copy of the book, then the fact will be that the book does physically exist. Therefore, if the reference contains enough information, the book can still be physically tracked down if it continues to exist anywhere in the world. And if an online version is still available (which is likely), then finding the correct source, and updating the url is easier if the reference contains sufficient information.

This leads back to the way I use citation templates. I sometimes use them in a creative fashion, but it's neither flippant nor accidental. I don't care one iota about the underlying template, which is but a tool to use insofar as it's useful, as any engineer or inventor of any sort would concur (not all inventors being engineers, but all inventors having to think about how X can be used to achieve Y). The object for me then, always, is to get the display I'm seeking. This doesn't mean I always get it right. But it does mean I'm consciously thinking about what I'm trying to achieve with the tool at hand, which is a citation that is accurate and descriptive, but not too unwieldy to read. And if I get that right, no matter what happens to the url, someone intent on finding the source, has been given a good chance of doing so.

Now then, where's my tea?

Examples of differing citation templates co-existing without issue
All of the citation examples below, and elsewhere on this page are inline citations. Inline citation refers to the citation notation in the sentence of a book or article, represented mostly by a number, but occasionally by another symbol, such as &dagger; or &Dagger;. Contrary to some misconceptions, exactly where the hidden reference template itself sits, whether embedded in the article text, or grouped at bottom (using 'list-defined' or Harvard templates, or both) does not define whether or note it is an 'inline' citation. But you can embed citations within the text in the same article, without any conflict.
 * 1) This one is this, using the list-defined inline citation of
 * 2) This one is this, which is also a list-defined inline citation, of
 * 3) This one is this, which is another list-defined inline citation, of
 * 4) So is this, which was this, from Alfred Nobel.
 * So, this one, is embedded right here in this sentence, and is simply this: , from Alfred Nobel, which also contains the r template per the above example.
 * 1) Another embedded reference is this which is this, an inline citation embedded in this sentence.
 * The important difference between these two "embedded" citations is that the Gould citation can be easily repeated throughout the text, because it has and  . They both use exactly the same template, with the only difference being that I call one "cite xyz", and one "citation". Both work, no problem. And both sit in the same article, causing no problems.
 * 1) This last addition is this, inserted to show that list-defined references can be generated without the r templates, per recent discussion on this at the Village pump, which has since moved to Centralised discussion Since adding the Norbert ref, I have replaced all r templates on this page, but I leave the Norbert1948 example as is, since I mention it at the aforementioned discussion, with a link to this section, from my comments in the neutral section of that discussion.

The overall message? There are some things that are not problems, unless we try to make them so. Even then, that does not make something that is not a problem into a problem. Rather, it creates a problem of a different sort, with the pseudo-problem serving as a 'straw-man argument'. In the case of reference templates, mostly these issues seem to arise in context of good faith misapprehension, as I discovered in my Wikijournies to date. Hence elaborations on this user page, for those who seek solution and understanding to find in one place, including of course, myself. One thing arising from the recently added Village pump discussion, is that sometimes there are unforseen issues that need to be worked through, which is a third type of problem: Not the original, and not an artificial one, but one arising from a new range of discussions. At time of this input, those discussions are ongoing.

The changes so far have had the overall goal of reflecting what has been learned in light of recent developments, while acknowledging enthusiastic, good-faith input others in figuring this stuff out and pointing me to the history. Further updates are pending, but of a more 'ordinary' nature. That is, overall readability of the page, which were the original changes I'd been pondering on before the recent developments. Some headings will probably stay the same, since I think I've created a couple of links elsewhere using them. But I'll try to consolidate areas where I essentially repeat myself, albeit in different ways. The list section below won't change much beyond the ordinary way it would always have changed: namely, the addition, relocation, or deletion of articles as illustrative examples of referencing styles. I may use the Harvard templates column for something else, unless I stumble on a swag of 'purist' examples, which I haven't to date (and while I did initially look, I ain't spending hours searching). Wotnow (talk) 03:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Examples of articles using different styles
The following lists are examples only, of the referencing styles as found. While it can be said that 'mixed breeds' are easier to locate than 'purebreds', the lists are not claimed to be proportionately representative of any style.

Refs embedded E.g.'s with refs embedded in the article text. Simple freehand style Template style (Any template). Simple & template
 * Anna Laetitia Barbauld (Featured article-FA)
 * Captain Charles Johnson
 * Captain E.G. Beaumont
 * Captain K.G. "Ken" Jackson MBE
 * Ontogeny
 * Positive feedback
 * Stephen Jay Gould (1 template ref)
 * William Harvey
 * Brachial plexus injury
 * Dawkins vs. Gould
 * Paleontology
 * Primate
 * Richard Dawkins
 * Dialectical materialism
 * Entomophagy
 * Feather
 * Human evolution (Mostly template. Some freehand).
 * Marvin Harris
 * Robert Sapolsky
 * Teleology
 * Thermoregulation

Harvard templates
 * Article name

List-defined references (Freehand, any template, or both).
 * Abantiades latipennis
 * Anne Dallas Dudley
 * Archaeopteryx
 * Arthur Rudolph
 * Athy
 * Bob Maitland
 * Captain R. T. Claridge
 * Chester Grosvenor and Spa
 * Coton in the Elms
 * Cromwell Dixon
 * Elaine M. Goodwin
 * Ernest Shackleton
 * Harry John Lawson
 * History of the automobile
 * History of the Earth
 * Jules-Albert de Dion
 * Le Vélo
 * Louis-Nicolas Robert
 * Organic solar cell
 * Malvern Water
 * Masquerade (book)
 * Myrmecia esuriens
 * Pierre Giffard
 * Robert brothers
 * Rock Creek Canyon Bridge
 * Simon Radley
 * Stonyhurst College
 * Thomas Humber (DYK main page 10.01.2010)
 * Tomb of Hafez
 * Vincenz Priessnitz

Combinations of styles (Embedded refs, freehand, Harvard and/or other templates, list-defined refs). Embedded & list-defined refs Harvard templates & list-defined refs Harvard templates & embedded (any style)
 * Alfred Nobel
 * John D. Barrow
 * Malvern, Worcestershire (Good Article-GA. Primarily list-defined refs)
 * Nervous system
 * Taraxacum
 * William Shakespeare
 * Evolutionary developmental biology (freehand & template embedding)
 * M249 light machine gun (FA: freehand & template embedding
 * Wakefield (template embedding)

Szekely, Malvern, etc.
I will post some references that may help with the template on the Edmund Bordeaux Szekely site, and some information with a wiki quandary question on the Malvern, Worcestershire site and a "reconciliation / enough is enough" comment on the Rosalind Franklin site. Many thanks for your resolution of that. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 17:24, 15 January 2011 (UTC)