User talk:86.56.72.121

Hi there. I think you deleted a reference I added for the page on George Merrill. The reference shows the transcription of the entry from the Register of Births for England and Wales for Merrill's birth in 1867 (and not 1866 as was previously stated in the article). The original index entry is also available to view from this link. I wondered on what basis you deem this to be an 'inappropriate' reference? It is a primary source and as far as data on births, marriages and deaths goes that occured in England and Wales from 1837 to 1992, there is no better or more reliable source. It is literally the transcriptions of the legal obligation to register these events. --Songofachilles (talk) 21:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello Songofachilles (talk), the site you used is user generated content, and such sites are not acceptable as a sources on wikipedia. Some member of public linked the scan and wrote that Merrill's date of birth was Dec 1867. It looks amateurish as well, and that should always be a red flag to the quality of a source. Also, the scan of the index entry it links to doesn't really prove anything. There is no evidence that it is this particular George Merrill (it's not an unusual name) that is being referred to; all the scanned copy of the index does is list someone called George Merrill having their birth registered sometime between Oct and December 1867.


 * Note that primary sources should only be used with care in wikipedia, as articles should be based on quality secondary sources, not primary sources or "own research". If you could find a scanned copy of the birth certificate, on a website managed by the National Archives (not some amateur website), or some other clear reference to his date of birth (with the name of his father, Samuel Merrill) on a National Archives managed website, that probably would be ok though.


 * Also note the date a birth is registered is not necessarily the same the date of birth. Working class people, in particular, in those days may not have registered the birth until a long time afterwards. (It wasn't a legal requirement to register births until 1875 in the UK.) On Carpenter and Merrill's grave headstone, it states that he was 61 when he died on 16 Jan 1928 (thanks for correcting that date), but if he had been born in Dec 1867 he would have been 60 at the date of death. The graves website that lists 1866 as the year of birth is also user generated content, so I haven't used that as a reference either, although we do know that it is referring to the George Merrill the article is about. The "Geni" website also says 1866 as the DOB and gives family details, but again it is user generated content, so wouldn't like to use it as a reference Geni. George Merrill

Have a look at Reliable sources, it should help you. Thank you for leaving a note instead of starting an editing war, as some people would have done. 94.139.3.9 (talk) 10:03, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi there. Thanks for your reply and for explaining your thoughts behind the Free BMD project being an unacceptable source. I agree it has its pitfalls. There is, however, always a download available from the actual register which the volunteer transcriber has copied from and I would consider this to be an accpetable source. However, as you say, I totally agree with you that in this case we cannot know for certain that this is the actual George Merrill. In later quarters, where the mother's maiden name is also listed, or for those with a rare or unique name, it is obvioulsy far easier to be confident that it is the correct entry. It's interesting that in the death entry for George Merrill in 1928 (see https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=6k2p9hezA%2Bn%2B054kHD6mqQ&scan=1), his age at death is stated as being 60 which would fit with a birth between October and December 1867. I'm pretty confident that this entry is for the correct George Merrill as it is the only death entry for a George Merrill in 1928 in England and Wales and the death registration district fits with us knowing that he died in Guildford. However, it doesn't of course explain why Merrill's gravestone states that he was age 61 at death. And, especially as Edward Carpenter was still alive when Merrill died, I can't imagine that such a mistake could have been easily made.


 * I am tempted to order a copy of the 1867 birth certificate now as it's frustrating me! Do you happen to have any information on Merrill's mother? Thank you. --Songofachilles (talk) 12:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)