User talk:ATC/November—December 2007/Archive 1

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List of The Naked Brothers Band songs
Thank you for you most recent contribution to Wikipedia! We appreciate that you have the desire to want to make edits to make Wikipedia a great encyclopedia. However, the most recent edits you made to List of The Naked Brothers Band songs were not all entirely constructive, so for now they have been reverted. Also, when you want to make major edits to an article like you did, please discuss it on the Talk page so all editors can get an idea and understanding of why you made such big edits. For the mean time I have reverted most of the recent edits you have made until they can be discussed on the talk page. Here are a few questions I have for you...


 * Why did you delete the production information from the infobox? It is an established and accepted album template used all over Wikipedia.
 * Nat Wolff is NOT the producer of the album. Producers finance an album and handle things like marketing and production.  Being 12, it is very unlikely that he could do any of that.  The producers I listed on the article (Michael Wolff and Michael A. Levine) are the actual producers on the album as listed on the album.  Nat did write the songs so adding him as writer would have been better.
 * Why did you remove the Production information from the main article? Again, it is an established and accepted style used all over Wikipedia.
 * Why did you add the two extra songs to the album? They are not included on either the original version or the enhanced version.  If you wanted to add the songs (since they are from the tv show) you could have added them under "additional songs."  I titled that section just for that reason to list movies songs and songs from the series that were not released on the album.
 * The song Hardcore Wrestlers is not Hardcore Wrestlers with inner feelings. The actual song name is Hardcore Wrestlers.  Alternatively, it can be listed as Hardcore Wrestlers (with inner feelings).

Next time you make edits that completely change the article, please discuss it on the talk page either before of after, because there are accepted way to do things, and I know how hard it can be to be new and be afraid to change things to begin with. Don't let this discourage you, please edit more, but edit responsibly, as you edits can be read by any person all over the world! I have moved the majority of this on to the talk page here feel free to answer there. Happy editing! Thanks! Josborne2382 05:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: List of the Naked Brothers Band Songs

 * According to the CD album that came with The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie when the dvd first came out the song was titled "Hardcore Wrestlers with Inner Feelings," I am 100% shore on that. I know Nat Wolff is not the producer of the new debut album I wrote "Producer (Music Score)" meaning he contributed the music score and Michael Wolff and Michael A. Levigne are The Music Supervisors of the show. I fixed up the song list by adding, because for some reason they were missing, check out the album on The iTunes store it has it on the album "Long Distance" and "Catch Up With The End." I fixed it up on the aritical, because it did not look neat, so I made it look better, I don't know why you reverted it back origanally. --AnnieTigerChucky 04:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I apologize if I have upset you in any way, I am just trying to better the article any way possible. I am going to address each one of your concerns one by one...
 * "According to the CD album that came with The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie when the dvd first came out the song was titled "Hardcore Wrestlers with Inner Feelings," I am 100% shore on that."
 * On this one we'll have to agree to disagree. There is no definitive answer on this one so why don't we compromise?  I've seen it written in many places as Hardcore Wrestlers (with inner feelings) why don't we go with that?
 * I know Nat Wolff is not the producer of the new debut album I wrote "Producer (Music Score)" meaning he contributed the music score and Michael Wolff and Michael A. Levigne are The Music Supervisors of the show.
 * First of all, this is not the show, it is an album, and different rules apply. Even though Michael Wolff and Michael A. Levigne are the Music Supervisors of the show that doesn't make them "music supervisors" of the album.  Usually there are no "music supervisors" of an album, only producers.  According to the liner notes of the album and on the CDUniverse website and JR.com along with on many other reputable sites.  Also, Matt is listed as writer, not as a producer of any kind.  A Producer (even as you put it of the music score) means something completely different.  Nat Wolff is the writer and that is not an arguable fact.
 * I fixed up the song list by adding, because for some reason they were missing, check out the album on The iTunes store it has it on the album "Long Distance" and "Catch Up With The End."
 * This one you are completely right about, and I apologize for reverting this one. I will fix it in the wikitable.
 * I fixed it up on the aritical, because it did not look neat, so I made it look better, I don't know why you reverted it back origanally.
 * As I explained in my initial message, I reverted things back because you changed an established and accepted template for the infobox. What I put on is used all over wikipedia.  See any established article (Elton John for example) and you will see that the infobox I created is the same.  Plus you took out a lot of the production information which is important to the article.  I am all for cleaning up article that looks weird, but when you take out (or change) important information with out putting it elsewhere you make the article less factual.
 * Finally, remember that this is an actual album and it is significantly different from the tv show and movie. The way things are done on a tv show is not how they are done on an album.  Michael Wolff and Michael A. Levigne may be music supervisors on the show, but they are not "music supervisors" of the album.  They produced the album and they deserve the title as such.  I am sorry if this caused you any trouble, I just wish you would have put it on the talk page of the article first so other editors could understand the changes.  I am moving our responses to the talk page as well so other editors can see it.  Thanks!  Josborne2382 18:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

The Tic Code
This missing ref tag is what caused the text to not show up. If you don't close the reference tags, Wiki thinks the text is all a reference. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 04:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Annie, you might want to have a look at WP:OVERLINKing; we don't need to link words that everyone who speaks English probably knows, like actress, piano, film, director or jazz. Overlinking an article makes it hard to read, and makes the valuable links less noticable.  There's more info at WP:MOSLINK also.  Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you add add a "wikitable" on the section Crew instead of the list that is there on The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie articale, Thanks! --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 22:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, Annie. I don't agree with the extensive cast and crew lists in these articles, and I don't agree that tables should be added. Here is some information for you to study:
 * the WikiProject Films/Style guidelines, part of Wikipedia's Manual of style
 * samples of Wiki's best film articles can be found at WP:FA
 * one sample of one of Wiki's best film articles is Halloween III: Season of the Witch.
 * As you'll see, the goal is to write compelling prose about the film, not to include an indiscriminate collection of information. For example, the cast list at The Tic Code does not need to include every non-notable actor who appeared in the film.  I hope this helps guide your future article writing efforts. Please do not add these tables to The Tic Code.  Also, be sure to have a look at WP:OVERLINKing.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:20, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

November 2007
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. —Animum (talk) 04:16, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * How is writing that someone's family is Jewish "vandalism?" It might be irrelevant.  It might be unsourced speculation.  It might be very typical of this user's habitually questionable edits.  But it's not vandalism, and the template you slapped Annie with not particularly relevant.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 04:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying it was this, but it very well could have meant more than what it said. I'm not accusing Annie of anything (I think she's a solid contributor, as a matter of fact), but I'm just siding with caution and removing it.  Of course Annie can remove the template at her discretion. —Animum (talk) 04:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That was sourced in a previous version; the source is back there somewhere in history. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here it is:   Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Good, good. As long as there's a source for potentially contentious info pertaining to living persons, everything should be all good. :-) —Animum (talk) 17:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * ATC is still learning Wiki guidelines; perhaps she'll take advantage of that link to learn how to add a citation, after reading about using footnotes. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:77232253.jpg
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If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI (talk) 04:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Nicely done!
You used a footnote citation, and it looks great! I'm sorry that I doubted you earlier.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

miles from the tic code movie age
Dear SandyGeorgia, According to this website http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/tic_code/about.php, Miles is 12 not 10, I don't think that Imdb is always accurate and when I watched the movie I am almost positive they said he is 12. Thanx! --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 18:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rotten tomatoes isn't as reliable as all of the other sources I posted at the article; please check all of the sources listed at the bottom of The Tic Code. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, there's a problem. He is reported as 10 years old by the New York Times and Variety (as two examples only, there are many more), and as 12 by The Village Voice and the San Francisco Chronicle. I need to dig further; reliable sources conflict, but at any rate, I wouldn't use either IMDb or RottenTomatoes as the source for resolving this. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Should I watch it by DVD and what ever it says on the DVD can I put on Wikipedia. Thanx! --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 18:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That would help, but we can't cite "I watched it" as a reliable source. We'll need to make a creative footnote that documents the issue.  I've got to do some work around the house now, but later I'll post to the Film Project to ask them how we should handle this.  It's possible that the film refers to him at two different ages (as he grows?), which generates the confusion.  Honestly, since TSA people consulted on the film, I would be surprised if they made him 12, since tics statistically peak at 10.  I'll work on this more later today.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ATC, I posted a question to the Film Project. I have your talk page watched, so it's not necessary for you to post to my talk page as well.  I will see all of your posts here.  Also, in the future, when you have a question about a specific article, it's best to post that question on the article talk page.  I'll work more on this later tonight, after I hear from the Film Project.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I actually have an idea. First of all, according to this audiobook that I bought on Itunes was an interview with Polly Draper and Michael Wolff talking about The Tic Code movie and Draper says, "I wouldn't of been so fat in the film if I wasn't preganet," and I did not notice that she was preganet and Alex Wolff was born in 1997 so the movie must of been filmed in 1996. So Chris Marquette was born October 3, 1984 which means that his B-Day already past so I subtracted 2007 by 1996 and I got 11 but if his B-Day already came or past he would be 11 if it did not come yet he would be 10. I tried to look up when The Tic Code was filmed, so I could check if his B-Day came yet or not to determine how old he was durn the movie but could not find anything about when it was filmed just when it was released. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 21:53, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Annie, that's what is called original research; we can't do that on Wiki, we must report what reliable sources say :-)) When reliable sources disagree, we're better off to hedge and just leave the age out and refer to him as a pre-teen, perhaps adding a footnote that reliable sources disagree on the age.  Also, Marquette's age in real life isn't at issue; it's the age of the character that is discussed.  Marquette could have been (and most likely was) playing a character whose age wasn't the same as his own.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanx for all your help :-))! Since The Tic Code article just has him as a young boy I think we should keep it as it is and not put pre-teen, but for the Michael Wolff article, when it describes about The Tic Code movie it says a 10-year-old boy, should I change it to a young boy. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 22:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Pre-teen would work for now, but I plan to investigate further. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:59, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay thanks I'll do the same and let you know what I find. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 23:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Wait a sec...:-)) but how would we reffere him as a boy pre-teen and for the Michael Wolff article it say who be-friends a 10-year-old boy it would not make sense to put who be-friends a pre-teen so I think a young boy will be good for now. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 23:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, young boy works also. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, I added something to a question to the Film Project. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 22:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw that. I will solve the whole thing with a big footnote; give me a few minutes.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I fixed The Tic Code, although this is such an insignificant item, I'm not sure it warranted the effort. There is no need to even mention the boy's age in Michael Wolff's article, as that article should focus on him rather than details of the movie. Although we have to report what reliable sources say, I remain fairly confident that the boy was ten in the movie, and some of the sources were confused because Marquette was 12 when he played the role. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 23:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In The Naked Brothers Band
For "(Dad) Michael Wolff" he is not refered to as "(Dad) Michael Wolff" He is refered to as "(Dad) Mr. Wolff in the film and show." How do you edit a reflist to fix this. How do you create one anyway?
 * I don't know where you're referring to, ATC. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In The Naked Brothers Band Film/Show Reference. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is a link to the film references: what do you want to do there? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Change "(Dad) Michael Wolff" to "(Dad) Mr. Wolff" they do not refere him by his first name in the show or movie but near the middle of the first season he is refered to as "Sonny Wolff."

Sorry I have plans tonight and tommorow I'll get back to you tommorow afternoon or later. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You mean, I guess, in the Navigational template at the bottom of the page, not the references. I changed Michael Wolff there to Mr. Wolff. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the difference between a navigational template and a reflist and how do you create or edit a navigational template. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 22:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry when I said Reference I ment a reflist. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 22:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Reflist is generated automatically from the ref tags imbedded in the article by included at the bottom.  See WP:FN; reflist replaces references/.  Navigational templates are separate templates that are added to the bottoms of articles to collect like items.  It's good to learn a lot about editing Wiki articles before venturing into editing templates, because mistakes in templates affect many articles.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanx! --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 23:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Nat Wolff Article
It is saying citation needed. The only problem is that their is no reference leading to it to make a citation, but the reference on The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie is the one I need for this reference as well but how do I do that? --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Annie, how about if you put questions that are specific to a certain article on the article talk page, where other editors working on those articles can help? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie
Dear SandyGeorgia, Through the history edits of The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie, one of your edit summary's said copy-vio NYTimes about "the movies Brain Child is Polly Draper" etc. The only thing is that, it said that in the NY Times, but I re-typed it differently, so it wasn' t NY Times Copy-Vio. And the problem now is that there is nothing indicating the producers of the show who are the Wolff-Bros parents. Is there any other reason you did that? Because there has to be another reason for that edit. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

But if you think its copy-vio I could re-word it but, their parents have to be in the Background/Production section because they are the whole cause of the show and their mother Draper is considered "the brain child" of the show, I could even word "the brain child" part out since I did not get that through a reliable source. Thanx! --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 21:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I took the whole thing out because it used too many words that were from the NYT; you can add back in who the producers were, and source it to the NYT, but be careful not to directly use their phrases (I recall the geeky accordian-playing father ... ) Sandy Georgia (Talk) 22:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Thanx! --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 22:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear SandyGeorgia, I saw the recent discussion on The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie you said that, there is no sorted text saying "strugles", about Michael Wolff's film The Tic Code. Go and check the reliable recorces at the bottom of The Naked Bros Band Page in The NYTimes article and look for this text I copy and pasted While the Naked series and movie are her first shots at directing, her screenwriting debut was in 1999 with The Tic Code, a theatrical film starring Gregory Hines that was informed both by her husband's childhood struggles with Tourette's syndrome and by his passion for jazz. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If that's what it says, 1) that is a copyvio because you used the exact text, and 2) it should be cited to the New York Times so that it's not POV. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

a) I will add the "struggles" with a reference tag. b) I did not copy and paste all of this text to the article I was just showing you what to look for.AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 01:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It is good practice to *always* source everything you write on Wiki with a reference; if not, someone can delete it later. But The Tic Code information does not belong in the Naked Brothers articles anyway; that article should stay focused on its own topic.  And for the movie The Tic Code, there are far superior sources to use than that NYT article; sources that deal specifically with The Tic Code, not the Naked Brothers.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

A) I did not understand the history info on The Naked Bros Band why you deleted the quotes I added. B) If it ment that a headline title should not be placed to that, could you at least at all the quotes onto The Naked Bros - Background/Production. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't delete them, I moved them down, but quote sections are discouraged per the guide to layout. If the quote is really that noteworthy to the article, it should have a place within the text with a natural flow of the article.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

a) But why did you move the quotes to the bottom if it's not part of the guide to layout. b) Thanks for explaining to me that you did not delete the quotes, you just moved them. c) Is there a way I could add all the quotes to the text to give it as you call it a "natural flow." AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I moved them down so the offensive "quote" section wouldn't be so noticeable, right at the top. You might spend some time reading some other articles to see how they write about plot, production, etc. and how they use quotes.  You can find our best articles on films and TV series at WP:FA.  For example, maybe you would be interested in The Simpsons or for a TV series, Lost. Articles like that could guide you towards the direction the article should go, and how to use quotes.  Wiki articles should not overuse quotes, because that's just a glorified copyright violation -- using the entire article in quotes.  Did you read WP:MOS and WP:GTL? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

a) I get it and notice how these approved article has a lot of info b) I will fix the mistakes and add the quotes where they belong. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

a) the only problem is added the quotes that was placed from Nat, Alex, Draper, and Wolff; and copy and pasted it to their articles, but they all don't have the NYTimes footnotes accept for Nat's article b) how do you add a footnote? c) I hope the text I added wont be deleted d) I will get back to you tomorrow. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 03:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ATC, first have a look at WP:FN, which explains the referencing.


 * You have to have the full reference listed at least once in the article.


 * As long as it's there once, with the full reference tag (for example, ), then you can refer to it with the abbreviation.


 * If you go in to edit mode at Nat Wolff, you can find the full ref by looking for  and copy it from there. However, there is very little info in that article which is of encyclopedic quality for Michael Wolff; there are much better articles that focus on his life and his work.  Naked Brothers is only one small part of his life.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 03:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Annie, some of those quotes are just not of an encyclopedic nature and not appropriate for adult biographical articles, like Polly Draper and Michael Wolff. Adult bios deal with the important events of their entire lives and careers, and should stay focused on their lives. I'd like to keep at least Michael Wolff and The Tic Code from being about the kids' Nick show. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 04:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

a) I agree with The Tic Code article being separate from being about the kids nick show. b) I understand why the Michael Wolff or Polly Draper quotes of the naked brotherrs should not be on there article since the series is not about them it's about there kids and there friends. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 21:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

a) I added a ref tag on Alex Wolff but everything underneath it got deleted. b) Was I missing a ref tag and what ref tag? --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 21:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

a) It took me a while to compare other ref tags on the article but it worked, I tried different ways and used preview until I got it. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 21:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

a) I added another quoit and footnote on The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie Background/Production, "Michael Wolff says" - but the quoit part isn't margined/lined up to the left it's to the center how do I fix it? --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 22:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I am just catching up with your edits:
 * Here is the correct means of adding the citations to Alex Wolff:  By the way, I don't believe Yahoo Movies is a reliable source.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is the correction to the citation added to The Naked Brothers Band (film):  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

A new copyright issue
Hi, Annie, I had to remove this edit:  You did not violate copyright:  natnalex.com did. They cannot add a PDF of a People magazine article unless they have gotten permission from People magazine. Have a look at WP:EL and WP:COPYRIGHT. What this means for us is that we should not link to natnalex.com anywhere, because we can't link to cites that violate copyright. If you can find that same article at People magazine's website, you could quote from it. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 00:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

a) I did not realize but I created violate copyright. b) natnalex.com is an official and professional website and obviously asked permission from People Magazine, but we do not have permission from natnalex.com, so as you said we can not use natnalex.com as a reliable source. c) Why did you suspect that natnalex.com did not get permission from People Magazine? d) I will try to get that info from the People Magazine website. e) Thanx! for all your help so far on learning how to use Wikipedia. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 01:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, you're misunderstanding maybe. It's not your fault.  It doesn't matter what kind of site natnalex pretends to be; they are violating People magazine's copyright, so we can't link to their site.  Did you find a release anywhere on their site from People's magazine?  (I couldn't.)  I'm not surprised, actually.  Anyone can put up a website, and we're better off using the Nickelodeon website anyway, as it has better oversight.  Anyway, if you can locate the actual magazine, you can quote directly from it.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I could not find it either. That's strange, maybe not so many people are reading it, so they took it of People.com. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 03:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: I think this article should be moved
I went to look at The_Naked_Brothers_Band:_The_Movie and you have been doing a great job with it! Kudos to you and Sandy for doing a great job with expanding it! As far as your questions go, I'm not sure the articles should be merged, as it might be a disservice to both articles. The movie article looks great and I am not sure how much more expansion that article could have as it is very informative as it is. The only things I could see to be added would be more production information such as:
 * Shoot Locations
 * Awards won (if any)
 * Critical acclaim (if any)
 * Any other actors/actress considered for roles

I think you get the idea. Also, the synopsis of the movie could be expanded just a little more with a little more of the exposition of the story and the sub-plots. I would love to do all of this, but I have only seen the movie once and am working on researching for other articles right now. As far as combining the article, I don 't think it should be as each subject is worthy of it's own article. You are right that the tv series article certainly needs to be expanded! On Friday, (unless it gets done before then -- I am looking forward to a day off!) I plan on rewriting and expanding the plot of the tv show, adding wikiboxes to both articles (organizing the cast and production staff) and completing my research on the Nat/producer issue as well. I have been working on other articles lately and almost forgot about this one! Thanks for bringing it back to my attention and I look forward to working together to (hopefully) bring these articles up to good status or even featured status! Oh, and I will copy this and put it on the talk page as well. Have a great Thanksgiving tomorrow (if you celebrate it)! Josborne2382 (talk) 00:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! a) The only thing is that in one of your examples it said awards one (if any), thats already added on the beginning of the page. --AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 01:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

IMDB Has A New Article for us to add
Dear SandyGeorgia, Keli Price, he starred in 1 episode on The Naked Brothers Band (TV series) as Bobby Love in The Naked Brothers Band: Battle of the Bands episode. I think an article should now be added on Wikipedia. Go to IMDB.com and search Keli Price. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 16:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You want to add an article on what? Keli Price? I've never heard of this person, and don't really care to work on such an article, one way or another, but did you know that IMDb is not a reliable source?  An IMDb entry is justification for bio notability, but before adding an article, I like to make sure the person has been mentioned by multiple independent secondary reliable sources.  You could create that article, but be sure to establish WP:NN or it could be speedy deleted by new page patrollers.  You might also want to check WP:LEAD to make sure you set it up correctly.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 17:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources
ATC, have a look at WP:RS and WP:V. If possible try to avoid removing reliable sources in favor of less reliable sources, or leave both if you're not sure. If you no longer want to use a certain reliable source, it can be moved to External links so it's not lost for future edits. I added back Variety because we shouldn't lose reliable sources on an article unless we can replace them with superior sources, which Zap2it is not. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 17:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Dashes
Hi, Annie. I keep fixing the dashes and you keep changing them. Please read WP:DASH: this is a hyphen (-), used to join words; this is an endash (–), used to separate numbers, dates and sometimes to create lists; and this is an emdash (—) used as punctuation, to indicate a strong break in the sentence thought. We don't use spaced emdashes ( — ). We can use either spaced endashes ( – ) or unspaced emdashes (—). In most film lists, spaced endashes are used, which is what I had done. Have you learned how to read edit summaries in diffs? For example, do you click on the history tab to see what others have written? See this link for samples of edit summaries for the film. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 19:13, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes I do read the history, I was just confused on what U were saying. Thanx for explaining it for me. But when you say "spaced" do you mean this? AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 19:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * What you typed above are four spaced hyphens; that is, four hyphens with a space on either side.  This – is a spaced endash, and this—is an unspaced emdash.  You don't have to learn how to do all of this (lots of editors don't know the difference) and I don't mind fixing them so that you can just focus on writing what you want to write.  I just wish you would leave them fixed once I fix them :-)  Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanx! I couldn't figure out how to add a em-dash so the closest tools I was able to find was a Horizontal line, thinking it ment the same thing, until just a few minutes ago I just found it on the bottom. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 19:37, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's why many people don't know how to do them. When you're in the edit mode, if you look below the reply window at the line that starts with a bolded Insert, you see an endash and an emdash.  But if they are already somewhere in the article, it may be easier to cut and paste them.  Anyway, for your character lists, I suggest an unspaced endash; you can just cut and paste it here ...   – Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay I did thanx! Also, speaking about confusing I always added a signature stamp from the toolbar and it would always add -- this in front of it, so I looked underneath and clicked the "sign your usernames:" and it didn't do that anymore. I was always wondering how you did that with your signature stamp. I wish there was a way to send wikipedia a list of complaints to improve, such as adding the dashes on the toolbar on top and to fix the signature stamp on the toolbar so it does not do "--" In front of the signature any more. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 19:50, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I just type the four tildes, ~, manually each time. I can type them faster than I can scroll down to click at the bottom of the screen. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I need help with List of The Naked Brothers Band episodes
Dear SandyGeorgia, For some reason the headline titles for Season 1 and Season 2 are stacked on top of each other, but one is supposed to be on the top and the other on the bottom and the last episode listed on the article that is being premiered on December 1, 2007 is listed in Season 1 its supposed to be listed in Season 2. I tried test previewing adding Season Number as column section, but the preview showed me everything in the wrong section and the season number column shows but not the season number. What should I do? AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 21:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Never-mind, someone fixed it, sorry to bother you. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 22:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The Naked Brothers Band navigational template
Dear SandyGeorgia, The Naked Brothers Band's article's talk pages, barely anyone looks or comment's there so I am addressing this issue to you. According to The Naked Brothers Band (film) on the navigational template is inaccurate only on the film's article, let me explain - Qaasim Middleton is placed there, but he is not in the film only the TV series - Qaasim Middleton replaces the old band member Joshua Kaye, but there is not sources of him to make an article of him, is there a way you can make Qaasim Middleton not appear on the movie navigational template just the TV series navigational template. Thanx! AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There's only one template for both, but I added a note; does that do the job? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It does for now, but it's the same situation for Cole Hawkins - he only appears in the film not the TV series. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you mean Cole is the opposite of Quassim? Quassim is only the TV series, Cole is only the film?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How's that? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Because Cole had to move back to connecticut and he was placed in the band when the band "The Silver Boulders" broke up and formed back to The Naked Brothers Band like they use to and Josh didn't want to be in the TV series so Qaasim replace him in the TV series.
 * No, no, I mean, how's that look now? :-)  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks better, but can you add Tim Draper's character Principle Schmoke. Thanx! AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 04:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Tim Draper doesn't have an article; the links to Tim Draper are incorrect and all need to be removed. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like you added info about this Tim Draper to the wrong article, Timothy C. Draper. See Polly Draper.  This is too much for me to sort out tonight; I'll have to fix it another day.  How is Jesse related to Tim?  Are they brother and sister?  Let me know so I can sort out all of these mistakes and create new articles.  The text at the bottom of Tim Draper needs to be removed. Please wait for me to make the new article tomorrow. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm no longer sure who's who, and I've never seen the show or the movie. Is this Principle Schmoke?  (I can hardly believe a venture capitalist is messing around on a kids' Nick show.)  Why is he called Principale Schmoke in The Naked Brothers Band (TV series)?  What is the correct spelling of the character name?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Allright, I think I have it now; tell me if this is right. Timothy C. Draper is Polly Draper's brother and Jesse Draper's father.  If that is correct, and if the correct spelling is "principal" (incorrectly listed as "principale" in the article), then I can fix the template.  You might consider checking these articles for typos; this is frustrating.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes you are right I'm sorry for confusing you with the spelling. Thanx! AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 04:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll add it as soon as I can; I have guests here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 05:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Bolding of The Tic Code
Just a note: Please read WP:MOSBOLD and WP:LEAD; I unbolded and uncapped it once in the quote, and you rebolded and re-capped. Bold is only used in certain places, and when Tyrone says the line in the movie, it's not a proper noun, it's plain English. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 02:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * But it's should stand out because, that will catch readers attention, since it's the name of the film. AnnieTigerChucky (talk) 02:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, we don't use bolding in Wiki to catch reader's attention. Please read WP:MOSBOLD.  That is exactly what we don't do with bolding.  I hope you're not planning to add more quotes ???? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Overciting
ATC, you're doing a great job on the citations. I filled out the references so they wouldn't be straight, blue-linked URLs, but you are citing more than you have to. It is never necessary to cite the entire cast list. You can cite it once, somewhere, and you sure don't have to cite items like that twice. You can remove all the citations from the individual cast members, because they only make the article hard to read and look cluttered. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 02:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ATC, I left you a message on the talk page about some sourcing that needs to be sorted out. Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

ABA and Autism
I posted the following to my talk page, but I wanted to be sure you got it, so here you are....:


 * Hi, thanks for the message. You will note that on the autism page the term 'management' is used rather than cure.  It is pretty well accepted that the disorder has no cure.  However, it can be managed.  (Of course the degree of management depends on the severity).  Secondly, your edit was really not in the correct section, it should have been in the 'management' section.  Finally, and please do not take this the wrong way, the English was very poor.  You also used 'kids' rather than 'children' which is a little colloquial for an encyclopedia.  Finally, a website is not the same as a peer reviewed scientific article (though it seems you had added two references, one of them peer reviewed, I have not read that article).  BTW, I too have a son with autism, he is 6.  I also have a PhD in psychology.  Your point on the word 'cure' is interesting.  I guess that implies disease, and I prefer the term disorder, that said, it does not change the reality that we have kids with autism.Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ATC, autism is a featured article on Wikipedia; that means it uses a very high level of sourcing standards, per WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS (different standards than a children's TV show). Also, the article has been vetted through good article, peer review and featured article candidates, and reviewed by many editors.  Changes to that page are best discussed on the talk page. Your edit wasn't well sourced, wasn't medically accurate, and had some grammatical issues; I concur with Dbrodbeck's revert.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

For The Naked Brothers Band Navigational Template
Dear SandyGeorgia, Could you add a cast column and just add Polly Draper since I think she should be on the navigational template since she is "the brain child" of the show and is their real-life mother, I think she should be indicated there. AnnieTigerChucky 21:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the current template is only characters, and I'm not sure it's a good idea for it to grow beyond that. Are you aware of other TV series templates that include that level of information?  If so, perhaps propose that addition on the article talk page to see what others think.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay Thanks! Annie TigerChucky (Talk) 21:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The Michael Wolff article
Dear SandyGeorgia, I understand why you erased that Michael Wolff picture, because that was horriable. But why did have to erase the info box? AnnieTigerChucky 23:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I had nothing to do with removing that image (although it was truly awful); it was deleted from Wikipedia by someone else. I disagree with the need for infoboxes on many bios, and particularly on that bio.  There was no info in the infobox which isn't included already in the article, and without an image, the infobox makes no sense.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

How to delete
Dear Sandy Georgia, There's a problem, The Naked Brothers Band (album) falls underneath List of The Naked Brothers Band songs and The Naked Brothers Band (album) article should be deleted, since there is a lot work to do on that article and it's practically a duplicate anyway. How do you delete an article? AnnieTigerChucky 00:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, only an admin can delete an article, and it would have to fail notability, be submitted to Prod or be submitted to AfD. You can start by reading WP:MUSIC, and then see WP:PROD or WP:AFD, based on whether the article meets notability.  Hey, Annie, it would be really helpful if you'd shorten up your section headings; something like "How to delete" would work. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:46, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You have to place a rationale in your prod template. I removed the prod. If you want to try again, this time with, you can.  Ten Pound Hammer  • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 00:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Keli Price
Hi - rather than just creating the article about Keli Price in the encyclopedia again, why don't you draft it, someplace like a sandbox page (such as User:AnnieTigerChucky/KeliPrice and then let me know? I'll review it and if I think it might stand a chance in the main encyclopedia without being deleted, I'll move it out there for you.  - Philippe &#124; Talk 18:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a very good suggestion, Annie. If you create the article there, and let me know when you're done, I'll help you make sure it's ready for Philippe to review.  Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I already started working on User:AnnieTigerChucky/KeliPrice, but I have a question. When I add quotes sometimes they end up in the center or on the left, and in the sandbox article I'm working on, the quotes ended up in the center. How do I put it to the left?AnnieTiger Chucky (Talk)

Okay I'm done with the sample of User:AnnieTigerChucky/KeliPrice, but I still need help with those quotes.AnnieTigerChucky 01:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Annie, you've done a very nice job, and it's wonderful to see how much your editing skills have advanced !

Those are just items to make the article tidier, but it's in good enough shape that you might want to go ahead and ask Philippe if he's ready to start it up. Nice work; I hope it's notable so your work wasn't in vain, but if not, you've learned how to create an article from top to bottom! If Philippe approves and adds it, be sure to add some categories at the bottom. You can probably get those from another one of the NBB character articles. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 02:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm confused about the almost empty IMDb entry, but Philippe may be a better person to determine if/how that affects notability, considering you do have one other source. From the text, he does seem notable.
 * It would be helpful if you could expand the WP:LEAD to include one more sentence and a bit more description about what makes him notable or important. You might be able to work in a pronoun "he" there, since I didn't know Keli was a "he", so I was left confused at first; adding more information would give you the chance to use the "he" pronoun so we'd know Keli is a he, and also a chance to let us know what makes him notable.
 * In the lead I also notice the use of slashes (actor/musician/model) which isn't good prose; it would be better to say actor, musician and model.
 * In the body of the article, the first thing we encounter is the career section starting with a direct quote, which isn't an optimal way to write articles. It might be helpful if you would bring the second paragraph up before the first, where we find out more about *him* and his career, rather than his role models.
 * There's not a problem with quotes being centered; that's how they're done. But it's better to avoid the use of quotes unless they really highlight something important that needs to be directly quoted.  I think you can avoid the direct quote there by saying, "Price's role model is actor Leonardo DiCaprio; Price says he has been inspired by many of DeCaprio's films and that he considers him a great actor.  The direct quote isn't adding that much to the article.
 * Avoid using the word "also" twice in the same sentence: Price also has a 14-year-old brother, Nikko who is also an actor and musician.  Neither of the "also"s are needed; they could both be deleted.
 * This sentence is missing a space at the end and has some missing and redundant words: put a space before Price, and add an "and" between music, and plays ... together is redundant.
 * ... and they both play the guitar together .[1]Price sings, writes music, plays
 * This sentence has a lot of redundancy and can be reduced from:
 * This is a table of the films and television shows he appeared in:[2]
 * to
 * Price has appeared in:
 * but with only two appearances, the table isn't really needed, and it would be much nicer if you would just use prose.

Okay thanx for all the tips. AnnieTigerChucky 02:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Annie - I've reviewed the sandbox page and moved it into the main encyclopedia. I think you've sufficiently asserted notability.  Great job!  The Wikipedia community will now edit it beyond belief, and it may not end up looking anything like your original article, but that's okay.  That's what wikis do.  You've done your part - congratulations!  Thanks for being so open to advice from SandyGeorgia. (By the way - the bengal cat link in your user page is gorgeous).  - Philippe &#124; Talk 02:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * One more tip, ATC; instead of saying his brother is 14, you might just say "younger brother"; the problem with giving his brother age is that it won't be correct a year from now. If you really want to add the age, you could say ... younger brother (14 years old as of 2007) ... Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 03:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Service award
AnnieTigerChucky, you've passed the 1,000 edit mark, and are entitled to display this award on your user page: congratulations !! There are several different formats, so if you like them better, you can use or  instead. Let me know if you need help adding one to your userpage. Regards and thanks for all the content you've added, Sandy Georgia (Talk) 03:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC) Thank you so much. I already added it to my user page. Thanx again. :-)AnnieTigerChucky 22:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Images again
Annie,


 * Recently you uploaded an image Image:Fcs JY30 2 34.jpg that you apparently found on photobucket. You have been warned many times by different administrators that you are not allowed to upload copyright images. And when you were blocked last time I warned you: "Do not upload pictures unless you created them yourself. This is really important...if you continue uploading pictures that you did not create yourself, I will block you from editing Wikipedia for one week." I have deleted this image because I believe that it is a copyright image, there is no direct source link and there is no fair use rationale. You are still new here so I don't expect you to be able to write a fair use rationale or to arrange with the photographer to license the images under a free license, and this is why you must stop uploading images that you have not created yourself.


 * If you find a picture on another website that you want to use here, please come to my talk page User talk:Sarah first and tell me the image and the link to where it is on the other website and I will tell you if it is allowed to upload here. Otherwise, please do not upload any images that you have not taken yourself.


 * I am not going to block you this time because I can see that you have been working very hard with Sandy to improve and to follow the rules here. But this has to stop immediately because it is illegal - it is the same as stealing someone else's photos - and it isn't fair to waste our time cleaning up these images. This is the final warning I am going to give you about uploading images and if you break this law again and steal other people's images, I will block your account without any further warnings.


 * When you provide links to a source, you must provide a direct link to the exact page the image or text is located, not just a link to the general site. Writing that you found an image somewhere on photobucket.com is not good enough sourcing. Let me give you an example here: if I want to say that User:AnnieTigerChucky is named after her cats I must provide a link to your userpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AnnieTigerChucky where the information about your cats is located; giving a link to Wikipedia's main page http://en.wikipedia.org is not good enough because it doesn't help anyone find where I got this information. We need you to give us direct links to the exact page, not just the name of the website.


 * Please, Annie, take this very seriously because I don't want to have to block you again. If you do not understand what I have written here, please tell me because I can't help you understand the rules if you don't tell me that you don't understand. Sarah 18:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your message, AnnieTigerChucky. Please don't hesitate to come to my talk page anytime that you're not sure about an image or anything else on Wikipedia and I promise I will do my best to help you. I would much prefer to help you than have to come here to block you or tell you off as I really don't like to do those things. Enjoy the rest of the weekend, :) Sarah 03:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

