User talk:Alastair Haines/Archive 2

RE:Greetings from Australia
''Greetings Wiki Raja

''I am a student of ancient language and culture like you. ''I would like your help. ''I am studying ancient love poetry. ''Tamil love poetry is very famous, but I do not know where to start. ''I will be spending 3 months studying Sumerian love poetry, then I want to study Tamil love poetry. ''If you can find time to point me to good writers about Tamil love poetry in English, I would really appreciate it.

''Also, can you tell me anything more about the people of Kerala. ''It seems like it is a very complicated place. ''Jain, Hindu, Muslem and Catholic preachers, ''rajahs and British governments, ... ''How close are Tamil and Dravidian in Kerala? ''Were they/are they a majority?

Peace friend.Alastair Haines 10:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In regards to ancient Tamil Love Poetry, it can be found in the last ten chapters of the Thirukkural. There are many English translations which can be found on this. One of the earliest English translators was George Uglow Pope. It shouldn't be a problem to find any copy of the Thirukkural in a library. Another good source would be the Purananuru. It is composed of 400 poems by over 150 poets/ poetess. Here are a couple of books you can look up:






 * Tamils and Malayalees (people of Kerala) are the most closest two civilizations in South Asia. There languages are very close to each other too. As a matter of fact, Kerala was the domain of one of the three Tamil kingdoms known as the Cheras. Both Tamil and Malayalam also have similarities in their scripts. In regards to the multi religions of Kerala, it is the same in Tamil Nadu as well as in the Tamil dominated parts of Sri Lanka.


 * One of the earliest faiths in Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and Sri Lanka was animism before the arrival of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism ideologies from the Northern part of the sub-continent. Hinduism amongst the people of Southern India and especially Tamil Nadu is a mixture of their indigenous dieties and some of the Hindu pantheon. The earliest time of Christianity on the Indian sub-continent was through Thomas the Apostle, one of the twelve disciples of Christ. He travelled by a merchant ship to Kerala during the 1st century C.E. and built 7 churches there. During Roman persecution in the Middle East, Judaism found its way along the sea-trade route to Kerala too. Between the 1400s and 1500s, Islam started making its way southward down the sub-continent, but met with a strong resistence. After Islam, Catholicism was introduced by the Portuguese who arrived Kerala and Sri Lanka during the early part of the 1500s. When the British arrived, they introduced Protestantism, Anglicanism, and other Christian denominations in Southern India and Sri Lanka.


 * Also, to note, the India we see today did not exist before the arrival of the British. The term India or Indian are not found in any of the indigenous literature of Sanskrit, Tamil, Bengali, Telugu and so forth. It was a word used by the British which was derived from the Greek word Indica. That term was translated by the Greeks from the Persian word Hindu or Sindhu also denoting the name of the river and valley of the Indus. One can also discover that many of the major cities in India are not of indigenous names either. For example, in Tamil Nadu the cities of Madras, Salem, and Travancore. Also the city of Tanjore was a British name that was changed from the original Tamil name Tanjavur. The was also a French colony in Tamil Nadu called Pondicherry meaning nice village. Bombay is of Portuguese which was called by them Bom Bahia meaning nice bay which was later changed to Bombay by the British. In Kerala, there is a seaport called Cochin, another Portuguese word. In China, there was also a Portuguese colony called Cochin.


 * The Indian subcontinent was composed of many smaller kingdoms and countries. Kerala was known as the Chera kingdom, while in Tamil Nadu and Northeastern Sri Lanka there were the Chola and Pandya kingdoms. In Northern Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh, there was the Pallava kingdom. Overall, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and Northeastern Sri Lanka were known as Tamilakkam or the Tamil country. Akkam meaning inner, inner core, or love in Tamil literature. This may sound like treason to many nationalists, but that is history. Also, due to the geographic location of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and Sri Lanka one can find a multi-religious and secular society. There is also a high tolerance towards each other's faiths. Also, if one were to hear of conflicts in that part of the region, it is mainly due to differences of ethnicity, language, and caste. Not so much with religion. Anyways, I hope this info was helpful. Please drop me a message if you need anything else. Regards. Wiki Raja 00:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow Wiki Raja, I'll be chasing those books at the library next week! You've really given me an inside look into Tamil people in South India and Sri Lanka too. Thanks a bunch. I'll be chasing the Wiki enries on several of the topics you mention also. Danyavad (sorry, I don't know any Tamil yet, except 'akkam' ;). Alastair Haines 04:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's ok. I do not know much my self. Here is another word you can learn, Vanakkam, meaning greetings. It is kind of like the Hindi word Namaste. Notice akkam at the end of Vanakkam. Wiki Raja 05:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Strategy games
Hello.

WikiProject Strategy games has finished it's first collaboration: Risk (game). We are now asking for nominations and input for a new one. Please voice your ideas at the talk page.

Clyde (talk) and WikiProject Strategy games.

Backgammon
Hi! I noticed you've made a some edits to Backgammon and its talk page recently. It's currently nominated at WP:FAC, and I think the majority of remaining concerns will be prose and style issues. After editing the thing extensively since August, I don't think I can be very useful in copy-editing the text anymore. If you have some time to look it over, I think it would benefit the article greatly.

(By the way, the sentence described as ambiguous in the talk page has been changed; it was a simple matter of clarifying that the checkers re-enter "through the hitting player's home board".)

If you have some time, then, thanks in advance. If not, no big deal. &mdash;ptk✰fgs 11:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Redirect
Instant redirects ain't exactly difficult - see redirect. History merging requires assistance from an admin - see how to fix cut and paste moves. But in the case of pseudohermaphroditism an hist merge was not vital since all the versions were your work.

As an aside, I hate to tell anyone to save their work less often because it looks like one is being mean on disk space, but it does make for long edit histories, so ... Please try and use "Show preview" more. Or copy your work to User:Alastair Haines/sandbox, do your edits saving as often as you like then copy back to the article when you are done. -- RHaworth 16:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Lots of great advice. So each edit is saved in entirity, wow! Well I will work on the Sandbox approach then, no worries. I have just been trying to keep all changes documented, silly me. Will read Wikipedia:redirect, thanks. Alastair Haines 17:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Strategy games
Hello.

WikiProject Strategy games finished it's first collaboration on Risk (game). We have voted for possible candidates for the next collaboration, and three finalists have been selected:


 * 1) . Stronghold (2001 game)
 * 2) . Age of Empires
 * 3) . Age of Empires II

If possible, please vote here on which of these articles to collaborate on. Thank you.

WikiProject Strategy games

Human Universals
A tag has been placed on Human Universals, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be blatant advertising which only promotes a company, product, group or service and which would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the general criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 11, as well as the guidelines on spam.

If you can indicate why the subject of this article is not blatant advertising, you may contest the tagging. To do this, please add  on the top of the page and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would help make it encyclopedic, as well as adding any citations from reliable sources to ensure that the article will be verifiable. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.

Above is the standard warning on spam. This article isn't clearly spam but I am unable to ascertain the actual notability of the book. Since the article is basically consists of content description with no citations, I don't think it meets Wikipedia notability guideline. Pigman |undefined 18:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll take your word that he (Prof. Brown) is notable in the field although I have to say the meager text and citations make it difficult to see it. Also, I guess I'm unclear as to the importance of the book to warrant an article separate from his entry. Although one good side-effect is that I've found a number of links to Brown's entry that should be going to a different Don Brown. Unless you know whether Prof. Brown did voice work for Japanese Anime? Or if he's a notable Jazz pianist? I'm thinking it's not the Prof. in those cases.


 * I was obviously mistaken in labeling the article spam. It is not. My apologies. But I still have concerns about the notability (in Wikipedia terms) of the book as well as the Prof. I suggest taking a look Notability (academics) for some guidelines on this. I see from one of the external links that Prof. Brown's list of universals has apparently been published in two other places than his own book. This is excellent source info on notability. Would you mind adding these sources directly into the article? It would really help bolster the article. Cheers, Pigman |undefined 23:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Great! Thanks so much for creating the disambiguation page! I was just about to do it when I saw your note on my page. Would you mind if I copied some of this exchange between us to the talk page of the book or Prof. Brown's article talk page? I think it would provide an bit of background to those interested in beefing up the article. Again my apologies for my overeager mistake with the template. I go through the "new pages" regularly and it's astonishing how many articles are started on people who are distinctly unnotable. I am grateful to have you clarify the subject for me. However, you should be aware that Wikipedia has been steadily moving to provide verifiable and reliable third party sources for its information. In other words, just saying a book or person is important in their field is not enough. It's necessary to have citations from other people and sources mentioning him and his work. I think both articles are fine as stubs for the moment. Obviously Irishguy thinks the same since he declined to speedy delete the page. Fortunately Wikipedia has a pretty good system of checks and balances at this level. My mistake didn't get past an admin who actually has the power to delete the page. Anyway, thanks for your contributions and not taking offense at my ignorance. Particularly since I've only just this moment noticed that you're not exactly a neophyte on Wikipedia. So apologies again for talking to you like you knew nothing about Wikipedia. Cheers, Pigman |undefined 01:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeedy
Yep. I'm doing lots, but not much on psychiatry as there are laods of edit wars and most of teh articles are in pretty good shape. Check my contributions. cheers, Casliber | talk  |  contribs 23:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Generic antecedents

 * Hahaha, congrats. Gets addictive after a while. I have a few DYKs. When you're please with things you can nominate them to be a GA or FA. That's always fun. I really like group editing when you watch something unfold before your eyes. The dino ones where/are like that.cheers, Casliber | talk  |  contribs 21:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation - Hay/Hey!
Heh, I was just writing to you about this, cheers! I'm pretty sure the two words have the same pronunciation in IPA: [heɪ], even though you are quite correct about variation in length of the same vowel sound. An excited "Hey!" wouldn't always be short and sweet though, quite often the vowel could be stretched out to add more emphasis (sort of like, "Heeeeyyy!") What i was gonna say though, is the [e:] vowel in the old english "he" isn't a sound in standard modern english prounciation. In some far northern and scottish accents, [e:] replaces [eɪ] ; so "hay" (or "hey!") in a scottish accent would be pronounced [he:]. Therefore, saying old english "he" is pronounced like "hay" and not "hey!" isn't entirely accurate. I know this is really pedantic, but hey, that's what we're here for! - Zeibura S. Kathau (Info 16:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Leonard Sax mystery
Good timing - I have had a brief look at the article and (not having seen any other version) it looks like you've made 14 edits over the course of the 7th of April with none since, apart from a note from an anonymous IP on April 14th. I've only just become and admin so I figured some log may appear of hidden stuff. Will have alook on admin noticeboard. I gahter you added stuff to the article as it looks now? cheers, Casliber | talk  |  contribs 09:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * (Phew!) - the free association keeps going - Agaton Sax...(mystery book) cheers, Casliber | talk  |  contribs 10:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Git
I've reverted your edits to git, and prodded the disambig page you created, as "moving" and article in that way destroys it's edit history - the propper way to move an article is via the move tag. TBH I don't think it needed moving anyway, perhaps the new content you added should be in a different namespace? Artw 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The same with Hie/HIE. Artw 17:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Please stop what you re doing RIGHT NOW. Moving articles in the way you are doing BREAKS WIKIPEDIA. Artw 17:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * | How to rename a page Artw 17:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Minor edits that aren't minor
Your recent set of edits of the I (pronoun) article are all marked as minor. Would you please review the correct usage of minor at Help:Minor edit and correctly mark any edits you may do in the future. In brief, minor refers to spelling, grammar and format changes only; anything that involves the addition or removal of text, or changing the meaning of any part of the existing article, is not minor. We welcome your additions and modifications to Wikipedia; however, it is important that edits be correctly marked. Thanks. Truthanado 06:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Grammatical gender
Thanks for your words. I have done my best in order to make that article better, i.e. more consistant with the literature. But I spotted a group of people who did not want that enhancement evidently. In fact, I was informed that I must ask them for permission to make any changes while FelipeS would make any changes he likes without any discussion. Another guy tried to reprimand me not to use the phrase "my version" because of its political incorrectness (anyway I accepted it as such), addressing me in rather disagreeable way - like if the pronoun "my" was of real importance in the discussion. That FelipeS actually treats that article as his own property - was unimportant for him. In addition, an Alaskan lady who boasts with her high libido (on her personal page in Wiki) gave support to FelipeS. I was shocked. I am not a religious maniac but in my country such women are termed... never mind.

It was really enough for me. I decided that I had no real interest to do anything in that company. But there are plenty of other places where I can share my knowledge with others, like my personal website. As a result, I have not even glanced at this page since that day till now.

Naturally, if you like to support me in presenting what people write in books (in fact, I want nothing more) and to help me to stop that guy who wants to present only his personal view, I may return to that article in the near future, if only I have some free time. On the other hands, my version (yes! MY = written by me, I do not care about somebody's feelings about correctness) is stored in Wiki archive. It was removed (i.e. the old version was reverted) by three persons, three times, without any commentary, just because they felt like doing that. I feel it is not compatible to Wiki standards to remove somebody's work without a word. And I would rather not write a word UNTIL at least some parts of my work re-appear in the article. In other words: I see no sense in making any further efforts if somebody can come and devastate it all without any explanations and despite of presented argumentation. I simply do not indend to fight against somebody's boorishness.

The problem of gene expression in brain development is interesting indeed but I am afraid I coul not help you :-(

With cordial regards

Grzegorj 13:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Something to do on Anzac Day evening then
I belatedly found out about the Meetup/Sydney which I should be able to attend....cheers, Casliber | talk  |  contribs 10:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Definition of Text Deviations
Thanks for your note! Unfortunately, the original basis was documented on the page for the Nestle-Aland on Wikipedia, but because the book I was using was a prepublication copy, I had to remove the chart until the book hits Amazon.

The definition of deviations from the Nestle-Aland is based on translatable differences. For instance, in John 1:18 the Nestle-Aland reads "God the only begotten" while the Pierpont Robinson (Byzantine) reads "the only begotten Son." The Revised Standard Version reads "the only Son," so that would be a deviation. Here, the New American Standard follows the Nestle-Aland. Also, the paraphrase rates are factored against the number of instances in which the actual source text cannot be determined from the translation. For instance, the New Revised Standard reads for John 1:18 "God the only Son." In that example, the textual bases were hybridized.

I've been promised by the authors of the Comprehensive New Testament that their book WILL hit Amazon in a few months, but they are hitting some last minute delays. When it is available, I'll restore the full chart that I deleted from the Nestle-Aland page (you can still find it in the history for the page). Also, in the meantime you can look at another site that has a sample of translatable differences. It's only drawback is that it is showing deviations from the Textus Receptus, and you would have to do some reverse engineering. But here is the link:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/title.html

Write me back and let me know if this helps!

Best, Tim 20:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Alastair,

Thanks for the note and the link. In the comparisons made between the twenty translations that were studied, the most interesting fact (to me, at least) was that the closest two translations to the Nestle-Aland were the Holman Christian Standard (Southern Baptist) and the New American Bible (Roman Catholic). The New American Standard was not as close, but it had a lower paraphrase rate than the first two. Depending on the actual factors one is interested in, that could tip the scale. The link you gave me would seem to follow this kind of selection.

And, of course, a deviation from Nestle-Aland doesn't necessarily mean that the reading is inferior. It could, in fact, be superior to the choice made by the Nestle-Aland / UBS editors. But it is a choice that should be noted in the translation's footnotes (which is not normally the case) If you have trouble retrieving the article in the history, I can pass along a copy.

Best, Tim 14:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Alastair -- I'm sorry I'm inept at Wikipedia, but I can't find your email address. Mine is teclontz@teclontz.com -- if you email me tonight I'll send you my copy of the article. Tim 15:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Duplicate images uploaded
Thanks for uploading Image:LucaGiordano.jpg. A machine-controlled robot account noticed that you uploaded the same image twice: as Image:LucaGiordano.jpg and also as Image:AndreaSaachi.jpg. The latter copy of the file has been marked for speedy deletion since it is redundant. If this sounds okay to you, there is no need for you to take any action.

This is an automated message- you have not upset or annoyed anyone. In the future, you may save yourself some confusion if you supply a meaningful file name and remember exactly which name you chose (file names are case sensitive, including the extension) so that you won't lose track of your uploads. For tips on good file naming, see Wikipedia's image use policy. If you have any questions about this notice, or feel that the deletion is inappropriate, please contact User:Staecker, who operates the robot account. Staeckerbot 17:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Modern English personal pronouns
An editor has nominated Modern English personal pronouns, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not"). Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. Jayden54Bot 18:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Alistair in terms of notability I always muse on some of the other articles such as this which is a featured article, and discrete articles on singular episodes of Southpark. Now both of these things I highlight are good, I just use these to illustrate the breadth and depth of subjects wikipedia now covers in its comprehensiveness and size when commnenting on AfDs.... cheers, Casliber | talk  |  contribs 00:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Final warning
This is a warning to cease edit warring at Hypotheticals. The three-revert rule forbids editors from making more than three reverts within 24 hours. If you continue to edit war, you are likely to be blocked from editing. Please discuss with users you disagree with rather than constantly reverting. Thanks. Heimstern Läufer 05:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Err ... this is a first warning ... and a final warning? Don't sound like reasonable process to me. But then, I'm not sure my opinion is worth anything really, is it? Please remove these unsupported allegations from my user page. Cheers. Alastair Haines 05:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It may be that you have not read our WP:3RR policy? Please do so. ··coe l acan 06:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have now read the policy. The user who raised the complaint is guilty by the rule. I reverted his third attempt to to tag the article. Three tags in a row was a breach. I did not, nor am I now reporting him for it, but it is a fact. I only became "guilty" because I chose to revert rather than report. Look at the discussion, he used the rule to try to make his tag stick. That's not the purpose of the rule. Think about it. I've seen a lot of common sense in Wiki policy and a lot of good discussion in managing conflict. Think hard about this, threatening someone with report for reversion, while deliberately insisting on your own tag is not proper use of the rule. For goodness sake, I invited him to change the text if he didn't like it. That's Wiki style. Not this rule based stand-over tactics. Cheers. Alastair Haines 06:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * PS I'm serious about removing this warning stuff from my page. Take your time to think it through, so it's your decision, not mine; but I want it gone. Alastair Haines 06:17, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You've missed something: The rule forbids more than three reversions. Hanse reverted three times, not more, and is therefore not guilty of violating the rule. You reverted four times. That's why I left this warning. Heimstern Läufer 06:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I will not be removing the 3RR warning, because it is important for other editors to know whether or not you have been informed of the rule, should you break it again. Believe me, I've thought about it quite a bit now. You broke the three-revert rule, because you have reverted four times in under 24 hours. The other user has not broken it, because they have only reverted three times: 3RR applies to more than three reverts in 24 hours. The other user would do well to discuss the matter on the article talk page, however, the fact remains that you have committed a blockable offense and the other user has not. I was already going to block you, but as chance would have it, Heimstern decided to warn you just before I did so. Instead of going on about your business, you've decided to cop an attitude. Please don't push your luck. ··coe l acan 06:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You are both wrong. It's simple, he made the first change didn't he? So he reaches 3 or 4 or whatever first. Stop treating me like a kid and try to fulfil the responsibilities your learning to take on. I do not appreciate your superior and accusing attitude. It is very un-Wiki and needs to be corrected. I am a patient man, but you are testing my patience. Who are you accountable to, I would like to know, just in case it's needed. LoL I had dinner with Jimbo on Wednesday, and now this! I do have a sense of humour. Chill dudes. Alastair Haines 06:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The original insertion of the "essay" tag was not a reversion. Your first removal reverts to the version of the page previous, so you made the first reversion. If you insist that you were right, enjoy your certainty; if you break the rule again you can insist it to the admin who blocks you. If you want to hold us accountable for some perceived wrongdoing, you may make a report at WP:ANI. ··coe l acan 07:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have checked the policy again. Hansie was in breach of the policy. Its spirit is very clear. It is also clear that you have failed to reprimand him for his disruptive behaviour. I will not be reporting you for any wrong doing, I will just be recommending that you been given additional training or support. Should anyone seek to "use the system" and push for an edit war as Hansie did, I will handle it just the same way. Wiki policy is not there for people to use it cajole people into acceptance of their view of things. It is not my responsibility to manage these issues, you have accepted that responsibility, so people like me can keep contributing without being bullied. I am completely unconcerned about a wrongful warning placed on my account. My contributions speak for themselves. If I am blocked from editting, it is Wiki's loss, not mine. I care about Wiki, not my own privelege of editting. Thank you for the WP:ANI link, I know you are doing what you think is best, good for you. It is an important part of the whole project. My hope is that what I pass on to WP:ANI will help you do your job even better. Cheers. Alastair Haines 08:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Addition to Requests for comment/Policies
You added some requests for comment to the above page, but didn't provide a link for somewhere to respond to them. It might work better if you provide a link, e.g. to the talk page of the article the dispute is over. JulesH 13:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Good suggestion, I've moved it to the Village pump (policy). Alastair Haines 01:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

God and Gender
Hi, I was looking at the Talk:God_and_gender page and I think you should know you are fighting an uphill battle with Landau7 and LilDummy. They are both members of the same religious cult with Landau7 as the leader. Check the archives on the talk page of Mishpachah Lev-Tsiyon. I'm a former member and I will tell you that a female Holy Spirit is VITAL to their doctrine and it is for this reason that they push it so hard! I may add my two cents in a more detailed exposition later, but thought I'd send you this quick little quip. Drumpler 18:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, you should also know that I've reported these two for sockpuppeting and meatpuppeting in the past: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Landau7 It seems they're doing it AGAIN! If you want to file another report, feel free. Otherwise I can file one. They do this in order to support their position and make it seem like an issue has more support than it really does, when really they are friends. Drumpler 19:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I already went ahead and filed the report: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Landau7_(2nd)
 * I took the initiative to do so since it seems they were trying to pressure you into agreement, as they did me. I don't know your stance on this, but I wanted to let you know in case you desired to present forth your own evidences. Drumpler 20:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind remarks on my own talk page, Alastair. :) Do you mind if I reference it in the sock puppet report I filed? If not, I won't. Its just I'm personally sick of these two bullying others to accept a minority position. The whole Mishpachah Lev-Tsiyon article is largely an edit by Landau7 who kicked, screamed and whined until he got the edit he desired (I know he's the group's own leader from my own experience as a former member). He then recruited Lil'Dummy to support the [edits. Drumpler 17:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I understood what you meant, but I wanted to reclarify:


 * You said: In short, I am happy for what I have written to be passed to Wiki admin, and trust their judgement and discretion in making use of it.


 * Am I to understand then that it is okay for me to make reference to your remarks in the report? What I would do would be to put up a link to the section on my talk page within the report itself and not even provide my own commentary. That way, a Wiki admin could judge for themselves. The only reason I ask is because you stated earlier that you reasonably concluded this could be the case and I wanted to make reference to it because I'm not the only person who has had that suspicion. Drumpler 21:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I just also wanted to add that I appreciate your non-involvement in this and think it is noble. You are doing what you think to be best and I will honour that, regardless of your decision. I'd also like to add that you're probably not going to get anywhere with those two unless you bend to what they want. I've been backing what I thought was reasonable on your own behalf while providing alternative solutions to support their own pet arguments. Drumpler 21:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not backing your arguments because I feel a need to, I'm backing your arguments because I think you are right on several points, LOL. Only thing I disagree with is your fundemental stance on Scripture and how I think that may colour things on your behalf, but to me that is irrelevant to the arguments you do present. I do not think minority arguments belong on a religious article. What pisses me off regarding Landau7 personally is that he will push his beliefs and ways of doing things as if its the law of the world. I am more infuriated that they're doing this to you because its an injustice they've done to me several times, outside of Wikipedia, in real life and on Wikipedia. Drumpler 22:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering if I should have edited the personal details out of this thread: original I know the women in question would not appreciate being discussed on there, especially since this is such a delicate matter. I didn't mean to open the can of words, so to speak, but the truth of the matter is, the only reason I haven't M.Y.O.B., as Lil'Dummy stated it, is because the group he's involved with is very fraudulent and very dangerous. I also know it isn't good Wikipedia policy to edit other people's posts, but if my address or social security number were on there, I'd do it anyway. I think a Wikipedia admin would understand. Drumpler 17:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not have access to the NCCG blog. Perhaps you could copy relevant text to this user talk page of mine. Alastair Haines 23:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Hum, I don't see any reason as to why it wouldn't be working. Here, directly copy and paste this instead of clicking the link: http://blog.nccg.info/blog/_archives/2007/3/31/2847249.html Drumpler 00:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I was half-tempted to say this on the talk page, but I won't. But so far as I can judge, you are nothing like Chris Warren. The man has lied, told women that if they leave him, Satanists will come and get them, covered up plagiarised visions and prophecies, almost killed me with a false prophecy, breaks up families (of which the Chris you addressing on the page, a different Chris, is but one), made people think imaginary "Satanists" were coming after them when really they were all made up by one woman whom he often "consulted" (the exact opposite of spiritual headship) and other such things. It is all on the http://www.nccg.info site that I told you about. I gave you the article I did because it linked to several other pages I wrote carefully documenting these things. I'm not the only one that has written about this. There are a few newspaper reports that discuss how dangerous this cult really is and in this small paragraph, I'm only skimming the surface.


 * I'm assuming, however, when you say they're alike, you mean in terms of spiritual headship. Any man that tells a woman that he owns every particle of their being, that they must submit to him and touch his heart and enter his spiritual garden and that husbands access Jesus through him, according to the Bible, are technically not of God. I'm just telling you so you know the nature of the statement you just made. I'm sure they will be gloating and say, "Haha, I told you so!"


 * The issue goes far beyond spiritual headship. It goes into abuse as well. I know you've preached to me a few times and I can actually put up with it, since you seem like a genuine and warm guy and I still love to discuss theology if, for no reason, I like to know how things work, but you are nothing like Warren. I might've made a snide comment or two to the other Chris, the one you addressed, but part of that was because he started harassing me to begin with (I know it doesn't justify it, but I do care about his family). If the other factors weren't involved, I would have simply desisted talking to his family, but we are trying to get him out of a dangerous religious group. I was an eye-witness to ALL of the allegations I made above and actually can deal with "righteous" patriarchy so long as it isn't done as a force of control. And do you know why its done? Because a few men with a little power in their heads want to practice polygamy (with the added bonus of Warren soliciting donations).


 * I'm sorry to drag you into this. I only joined the discussion to warn the people involved of what I suspected was going on and actually got drawn into the convo because I love discussing these things. I just thought I would give you some clarification. Shalom. ;) Drumpler 18:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much Drumpler. I believe you, I know the temptations men face concerning sex and power. Thanks be to God, I know many, many men who find them relatively easy to resist and have set me a fine example and taught me many good things. True leadership is a form of service. The better the leader, the happier those who are led. Good leaders work long hours, and take responsibility for the welfare of those they serve ... in short, they copy Jesus. Feminism exists because of the failure of men to do the job they were designed for. The solution is not to give up, nor to fight, but to reform. I love being a student and following responsible leaders, kids (and even teens) love it too. Most women admit they wish a strong man would come into their lives to take responsibility and bring blessing. Most men feel inadequate to do this. If what you say about your community is true, it is very, very sad. Sure it's bad, but it's also very sad. It hurts people in the most tender places. Thank you for standing up for the truth, for speaking painful but needed words to friends who need to be freed. Thank you also for the honour you show me, by trusting me to act appropriately with the personal things you share. God is good, you are in my prayers. alastair Alastair Haines 18:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Patriarchy.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Patriarchy.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. 08:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Against Wiki Policy?
I was wondering if the following remark on the following page was against Wiki policy?


 * MLT in Wikipedia
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishpachah_lev-tsiyon
 * Please keep a watch on this public site to ensure accuracy

I don't want to raise the red flag right now, just wanted your opinion. Drumpler 04:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Mishpachah Lev-Tsiyon article
I've been working on the article again. I do thank you for your feedback. :) Drumpler 13:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, having problems on the article. One of the cult's own dogs is protecting it and vandalizing it and I think they're proxying. What should I do? Drumpler 15:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, I looked one last time. Check out the article sources I added. The links are dead. He deleted them off his site. I'm going to publicly release my archive of his material. What do you think? Drumpler 19:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I restored several archived copies of the sermons deleted that were pertinent to the Garden section. I thought that was kind've low, really, that he did that in the first place. :\ Drumpler 03:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really worried about it, because if he sued me, I could demonstrate the several breaches of copyright he's done not only to me, but other people. Plus, I really do think Fair Use covers it. It also protects the integrity of the work.

If I just made quotes, I don't think people who didn't know of the incident would take me seriously. Unless you have another idea? Drumpler 13:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm also working under the belief that since Google and Archive.org archive sites, I should be safe. Plus, the pages are only accessable to those who read the Wikipedia article. Drumpler 13:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I decided to listen to you and removed them from my server. I added the old links back plus some new ones because I found it is part of Wiki policy to retain broken links if another copy cannot be found. This is all discussed on the talk page. I'm also going to make a sock puppet report against Landau7 later because of his own vandalism. He removed the sentence about Mary Alice Crapo, the cult specialist. I think this nails it for him. Drumpler 21:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey Alastair, I have decided instead of filing another report, to go through a dispute resolution process and get the assistance of another editor. I thank you for your own assistance and as soon as I figure out what a barnstar is and how to get one, will give you one. Thanks. :) Drumpler 05:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't believe it. :-O I did a REAL trace route (what I actually did before was a query) and the IP I thought was from the Netherlands bounced right back to Sweden. It was then I recommended that Landau7's history be checked. I should expect this, but just the gall of someone lying! I'm still going through the resolution process. Drumpler 07:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the barnstar back, BTW. :D It is appreciated. Drumpler 16:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

WPTL todo
I recently constructed an attempt at a more organized WikiProject Theoretical Linguistics open tasks template, but I haven't received any responses on the project talk page. If you could take a look at the test: User:Mitchoyoshitaka/WPTL todo and comment on it, I'd greatly appreciate any feedback or criticism! mitcho/芳貴 02:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

RE: Please don't 3RR!
I know and I feel they were probably just trying to bait me because they wanted something else against me. I have to look at it this way, though. They're probably afraid of the information I did release but which they excluded. And I did it using Wiki standards this time. That's a reason to rejoice. ;) Drumpler 15:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Prophecy in part?
Can you tell me what it means to "prophecy in part"? I need to know for a new section on the MLT article and I thought you'd be more qualified than many I know on here:


 * "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears" (1 Cor.13:8-11, NIV).

MLT released an article some time back which states that it really means to give impartial prophecies (prophecies that aren't word perfect). I wanted your impression on this issue. Thanks. :) Drumpler 06:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much. The sad thing is, when I left, most the material I had, including material they gave me, was snatched up as I was six hours from my belongings . . . I was in the hospital at the time (they didn't know I was leaving, but I guess they were playing it safe). In this material were very early revelations that Warren claimed to have had in a bound book called "Covenants and Commandments". It was published by a precursor organization that Warren headed, The Independent Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and these revelations contain very early copies of what is both in the "Olive Branch" and other literature put out by the group. If one compares them, they will find the later revelations to be heavily modified because Warren "didn't-understand-God-and-got-his-own-thoughts-in-the-way", so to speak . . . impartial revelation. And because the church had more of a Mormon, versus a Messianic, focus, there were references to the Book of Mormon and Mormonism which were later edited out. A pamphlet the group gave me both explained and justified these changes due to "prophecying in part".


 * However, I cannot really "prove" this as he has it locked away in his archive. But do you think a reference to my testimony would be sufficient? I hate to self-reference myself, but when it comes to this group, I do have notability (I outrank it on Google) and I mentioned this some months ago. Drumpler 07:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No, if i were to pursue those things, it'd be for other reasons . . . although I might make a reference on Wiki later, LOL.


 * I was wondering, is an article on the leader(s) himself/themselves notable? There are things that can be said about the group's leader but I think to post them directly into the article would just make it unnecessarily long. Drumpler 07:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

New Archival Method
I came up with the following archival method a few days ago:  Because he deleted material from his sermons page on his site just immediately after I started editing the article, I decided screen captures and a government time stamp would be sufficient to prove that I am not just making things up. I'm also going to, when I get the time, edit the article so that people can see when I access that page. Likewise, I'm going to start taking snapshots of when he placed the article up on the web himself so that he can't delete it, make changes and re-add it later. I don't think he'd do that, because if he did, it would alienate the small handful of followers he has left. Drumpler 08:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Ntpapyrus-stub
Hi - a stub template or category which you created has been nominated for deletion or renaming at Stub types for deletion. The stub type, which was not proposed at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals, does not meet the standard requirements for a stub type, either through being incorrectly named, ambiguously scoped, or through failure to meet standards relating to the current stub hierarchy or likely size, as explained at Stub. Please feel free to make any comments at WP:SFD regarding this stub type, and in future, please consider proposing new stub types first! Grutness...wha?  02:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Ntpapyrus-stub
Hi - a stub template or category which you created has been nominated for deletion or renaming at Stub types for deletion. The stub type, which was not proposed at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals, does not meet the standard requirements for a stub type, either through being incorrectly named, ambiguously scoped, or through failure to meet standards relating to the current stub hierarchy or likely size, as explained at Stub. Please feel free to make any comments at WP:SFD regarding this stub type, and in future, please consider proposing new stub types first! Grutness...wha?  02:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

A tag has been placed on Codex 0220, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. If you plan to expand the article, you can request that administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material. To do this, affix the template   to the page and state your intention on the article's talk page. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.

However, based on the above comments, I assume that you are planning to write a legitimate article about this topic, so please feel free to do so. Metropolitan90 03:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Codices
I was wondering if you wouldn't mind if I changed a little bit of your recent work. (by the way, great work so far with the new articles and list for the uncials). I would like to move List of New Testament codices to List of New Testament uncials because most of the papyri and minuscules are also in codex form. The more common phrase is "uncial" to describe the handwriting used in the earlier manuscripts (and I believe that is what you were trying to categorize in the article). The division I usually see is papyrus, uncial, miniscule, lectionary, then the various languages and Church Fathers. Also, I would like to create Category:Uncials to replace the NT codex category. Some of the uncials, such as Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, and Codex Alexandrinus, contain the Old Testament as well. -Andrew c 16:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

A tag has been placed on Uncial 0162, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. If you plan to expand the article, you can request that administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material. To do this, affix the template   to the page and state your intention on the article's talk page. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.

However, I echo Metropolitan90 in that if you are planning to create a legit article, then by all means go ahead. --tennis man  sign here!  12:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Clarification?
Alastair, I noticed that you referenced the "same-sex" couple comparison twice when defending your view of the all male god-head. I honestly don't know the answer to the following question, so I'm asking it in all earnestness. Do you view male-female couples as merely natural entities but same-sex couples (particularly male-male couples) as non-natural/supernatural entities which reflect your view of the all male god-head through a "sanctifying" "covenant"/contract? Lil&#39;dummy 00:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

What Should I Do About This?
Hi Alastair, how are you?

I was wondering what I should do with this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishpachah_Lev-Tsiyon#The_Garden It would seem Landau7 (Warren) continues to post up an private IM conversation and thus vandalize the article whenever he thinks I'm not looking. Is this source ([14] on the page) even verifiable, notable or any of the sort? The context (which Warren apparently ignores) is not about me, its about women and the abused seeing the Garden. However, if it is verifiable, it really doesn't bother me (although it may bother the individual because she doesn't know it is up and I still talk to her from time to time). Where it is, however, just doesn't make sense. Drumpler 17:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Beauvoir.jpg
Hello, Alastair Haines. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Beauvoir.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Alastair Haines/Patriarchy Archive. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg, so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or    media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 05:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Inevitability.jpg
Hello, Alastair Haines. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Inevitability.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Alastair Haines/Patriarchy Archive. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg, so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or    media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 09:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:SydneyUniversityCrest.png
Hello Alastair Haines, an automated process has found an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, such as fair use. The image (Image:SydneyUniversityCrest.png) was found at the following location: User:Alastair Haines. This image or media will be removed per statement number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg, so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. The image that was replaced will not be automatically deleted, but it could be deleted at a later date. Articles using the same image should not be affected by my edits. I ask you to please not re-add the image to your userpage and could consider finding a replacement image licensed under either the Creative Commons or GFDL license or released to the public domain. Thanks for your attention and cooperation. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 21:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:WhyMenRule.jpg
Hello Alastair Haines, an automated process has found an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, such as fair use. The image (Image:WhyMenRule.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Alastair Haines/Patriarchy Archive. This image or media will be removed per statement number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg, so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. The image that was replaced will not be automatically deleted, but it could be deleted at a later date. Articles using the same image should not be affected by my edits. I ask you to please not re-add the image to your userpage and could consider finding a replacement image licensed under either the Creative Commons or GFDL license or released to the public domain. Please note that it is possible that the image on your page is included vie a template or usebox. In that case, please find a free image for the template or userbox. Thanks for your attention and cooperation. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 07:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Oxyrhynchus categories
I just noticed we had redundant categories: Category:Oxyrhynchus manuscripts and Category:Oxyrhynchus papyri. I think one of them needs to be deleted, which name to you prefer? I like the latter because the collection is generally referred to as "The Oxyrhynchus Papyri". Also, this category contains non-biblical/NT manuscripts as well, so I do not believe that it is accurate to place this category as a sub category of the biblical manuscript/NT papyri categories. Speaking of which, is it ok to assume that List of Oxyrhynchus papyri is intended for non-biblical manuscripts as well? Because I was planning on adding non-biblical content. Because as of now, List of Oxyrhynchus papyri is basically redundant with List of New Testament papyri.


 * Thanks for your input. I went a slightly different route, see Categories for discussion/Log/2007 May 20. Your feedback there would be greatly appreciated. I think getting into the details about how this category should be broken up is a little premature because we only have 7 articles. I'm open to other ideas, and I fully understand that one day we will probably need stuff like Category:Oxyrhynchus papyri of Hesiod, Category:Oxyrhynchus papyri of Homer, Category:Oxyrhynchus papyri of Thucydides, Category:Oxyrhynchus papyri of private letters, Category:Oxyrhynchus papyri of business documents, Category:Oxyrhynchus papyri of legal documents, etc. But I think we should populate the current parent cat before dealing with subcats. -Andrew c 15:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Just in case you didn't know
Beside prod, we have db-user to speedy delete a page of your User space. Both work of course, but the db is faster :) -- lucasbfr talk 17:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Donald Brown
I see you overwrote the content of the article for Donald Brown (creator of the Eamon and SwordThrust computer game series) with Donald Brown the anthropologist. I retrieved the original and have recreated it at Donald Brown (programmer), but it would've been better had you created a separate page rather than overwriting existing content without notice. I also corrected your disambiguation page which described Brown (the programmer) as a fictional being. Huwmanbeing 23:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Mt Athos
Indeed he has risen! I think this would be most exceptional. I would only add that Saint Catherines too should get a mention. I recently noted this very point to the editor Richardshusr on here about his treatment of the history of christianity without including almost anything at all about the Orthodox church in the article. He has since created a couple of copy and paste articles from other wiki stuff. Like this History of the Eastern Orthodox Church but he likes to be pedantic so he is rather frustrating and annoying. But of course I can do nothing. Theotokos Bless you always. LoveMonkey 16:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

God and Gender revert
Why did you completely revert my update to the God and Gender article here. The reason stated was to recover cited material, but did you read the changes? The only material I really removed was the four Bible versions in the table, because a literal translation was enough to get the point across that the spirit was referred to as male. The remainder was more about reorganizing existing material and making it comprehensible. I am not sure that a complete revert was necessary. Justin Satyr 02:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Brain Gender
There is no need for the sort of snotty edit summary that you placed on this article subsequent to my inclusion of templates that were appropriate at the time. While you may have had every intention of completing your work on the article over the next few hours, I'm not a mind reader. That also is not my area of expertise as it happens. There is a reason for the patrolling of new articles -- there are a number of them every day that slip through the cracks and remain for weeks or months in a state that is less than what we should expect from Wikipedia articles. I'm happy with the work you have done to the article, and I thank you for your contributions to the project. I'd suggest you consider tempering your reaction to the contributions of others in the future. Erechtheus 04:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, relax is what I shall do. It is vacation time for me, and I will relish my holiday. Cheers, and best of luck with your editing. Erechtheus 13:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Andrew
I'm don't want to be an admin - see andrew's talk page - but it would be great if you add a co-nom statement for andrew below mine at User:Johnbod/Byzantine dress Johnbod 02:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Now set up at Requests for adminship/Andrew c. Andrew has to accept, answer the questions, & add it to the live list. Johnbod 03:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for the co-nominations. Your words were too kind. I too respect you greatly as an editor. In fact, I've always thought it'd be a good idea to have lists of NT MSS, and more articles on specific manuscripts, but I didn't get on my recent content kick until I saw you doing the things I had only dreamed of. So, you could say you inspired me! Thanks for all your great work, and the nom.-Andrew c 03:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * And we're off! Johnbod 03:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Happy story! :D There's still a lot of work to do, I'll be chipping away at some little articles on papyri, oldest first. John's manuscript articles will always be the jewels in the collection. I'm really glad he has been motivated to provide such a wealth of information. I'm finding Wiki a great place to learn, and to share. Cheers everyone! :) Alastair Haines 09:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't forget you need to vote as well - the noms don't seem to be tallied at AfD. Johnbod 11:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Quote Farm at Brain Sex
Oh, I don't find it so bad... more something that should be looked into at some point. Cheers, Victoriagirl 22:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Language families (Ethnologue)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Language families (Ethnologue), has been listed by me for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Language families (Ethnologue). Thank you. --Ptcamn 22:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)