User talk:CWH/Archive 3

Salt and China
Hello. I noticed that you were working on User:CWH/Salt in Chinese History, and was wondering whether you would like to help out with fact-checking, referencing and any general fixes needed at China National Salt Industry Corporation, an article I recently started, since you seem to know a fair amount on the topic regarding the history of salt in China. Currently the page is still a bit rough, so any assistance would be great. -- benlisquare T•C•E 19:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi B -- flattered that you would ask. I'll try to look at it ASAP and also to take your interest in salt as a motivation to just finish my own $%#@! article, which has been stewing for far too long! ch (talk) 20:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Here are a few points that might be considered for the article that you're working on? Just a quick brainstorm on a few points that come to mind. -- benlisquare T•C•E 05:30, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * From here
 * After the Tang Dynasty, rebel leaders began as salt traffickers, e.g. Huang Chao and Zhang Shicheng, directly led to the fall of the Tang and Yuan dynasties.
 * Officially produced salt was both expensive and of low quality; remote areas also did not have access to salt due to regional restrictions
 * Every dynasty enforcing a salt monopoly cracked down on private salt trade which still was able to persist with the aid of local people organizing armed salt traffickers to oppose legal enforcement
 * From here
 * Salt was in short supply during early times, therefore becoming a commodity tied to national security and social stability


 * Good points -- thanks again! I have notes about salt rebels from Frederic Wakeman and Elizabeth Perry, but I was worried that the article was getting too long. Wang Gungwu's book on the late Tang talks about Huang Chao but doesn't make salt sound like a major big thing. So it's good to know that you think these points belong in the article. I suppose it would be good to use these English language sources, though the ones you suggest must use some of the same original source material. ch (talk) 15:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Soo Yong
Sorry, I forgot to remove the template! I've removed it now. Good work! --Slashme (talk) 19:20, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Mass Education Movement
Hello CWH. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Mass Education Movement, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Does not rely on a page that does not exist. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:40, 25 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't know how to indicate that the problem was not that the page did not exist but that it had nothing to do with "Mass Education" as linked to the name "Y.C. James Yen" at List of Yale University people. I am working on a page "Mass Education Movement" which will describe Yen's work, which has nothing to do with Compulsory Education, which is where the Redirect now leads. The redirect was created in May 2013 in order to link to Yen's entry on the Yale page. Apologies, I should have explained it better, but didn't know how to.ch (talk) 02:54, 25 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Would you like the page deleted so you can write a new article about the Mass Education Movement? I can do that. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick reply. The new page will be National Association of Mass Education Movements, which is the formal name, but with a redirect from "Mass Education Movement," which is what it was commonly called: e.g. a search at WorldCat for "Mass Education Movement."


 * Right now I'm working on another page on James Yen's activities which included a link to "Mass Education Movement," which is how I saw that it led to a page that had no connection. So it would be good to delete the present redirect.ch (talk) 04:08, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

 * thanks for the cuppa -- just wish we could sit down and sip one together. Many thanks as well for applying your sharp eye to this and other articles! This makes me think that I should clean up my messy Sandbox and make a list of things I am actually working on so that you and others could see. Then you could warn me not to duplicate any efforts on projects you are developing and could see if I have something in progress. There's more than enough to go around! I should be more systematic. ch (talk) 05:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

A Barnstar for you!

 * I second! This is a great thematic article, of too rare a kind on Wikipedia. Cheers! Madalibi (talk) 03:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

DYK for John Calvin Ferguson
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:59, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * I'm especially tickled to have this from an editor whose work I admire so much,, and I appreciate your patient and knowledgeable edits and corrections.ch (talk) 17:42, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

A page you started (Lang Jingshan) has been reviewed!
Thanks for creating Lang Jingshan, CWH!

Wikipedia editor Rahaeli just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

"This is a great new article! Well written, well referenced, well organized. Thumbs up."

To reply, leave a comment on Rahaeli's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.
 * Thanks for the quick review and much appreciated feedback,, though much of any credit should go to for major edits and improvements. ch (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, there's plenty of credit to go around. :) --rahaeli (talk) 16:28, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Lang Jingshan
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 16:02, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Tang dynasty ancestry
I have tried adding this to the article before, and for some reason people kept rejecting it- the Tang Emperors were from the northwestern military aristocracy of mixed Han and Xianbei ancestry. They aggresively emphasized that their paternal ancestry was Han, deliberately tracing it to prominent Han figures like Li Guang and Laozi to secure their claim to the throne since it was a patrilineal society, in the face of accusations of being Xianbei. One monk even tried to accuse them of being Xianbei but the Tang rejected it and said their patriline was Han, even if they had Xianbei ancestry in the maternal line. They even came up with a family tree listing all the generations of their ancestors all the way to Laozi. This is important information which needs to be added to the Tang dynasty article and I need consensus from other users to stop it from getting deleted again. I have sources with which to reference it.Rajmaan (talk) 22:30, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for thinking of me, . I looked at the Tang dynasty article, and I thank you for adding a good and important point, namely that "Han" identity was negotiable. Maybe there is a little too much detail for that particular place in the article. Ebrey et al just say that "the Tang imperial family presented themselves as Chinese by descent." (p. 91) but Latourette (1934) is out of date to be a good source even though what he says about "Li" is true. BTW, wasn't "Li" Laozi's family name, not his given name? There was talk earlier that actually Laozi didn't die but went West to India, where he became the Buddha. But for the moment let's wait and see what happens. We can adjust things later if anybody objects. ch (talk) 03:43, 4 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Can you comment on the discussion here? Talk:Chinese_emperors_family_tree_(middle). Rajmaan (talk) 14:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

C. T. Loo
Hi CWH, I've nominated your article C. T. Loo for DYK, see Template:Did you know nominations/C. T. Loo. He's such a fascinating character, I think he deserves to be better known. Unfortunately, I'll be travelling for most of the summer and likely won't be able to follow up on questions that may arise. But fortunately, the article is quite well written and I don't foresee too many issues. Currently, the first paragraphs of the "Career" and "Controversy" sections are not referenced, nor is the sentence about his death in Nyon. Do you happen to have sources handy that can be added? -Zanhe (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll have to make a macro which says "Many thanks to Zanhe" because I need to say it so often! I had thought of nominating the article (which of curse you did a great deal to improve) for DYK, but was out of town myself and thought I had missed the five-day deadline. I will be happy to follow up any questions and supply (I think) the references needed. Happy travels and hope to see you again in the fall. ch (talk) 20:42, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Luckily, a recent discussion on DYK reached the consensus to extend the nomination window to seven days. -Zanhe (talk) 23:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Re: Quantangshi
Hi, just in case, I replied at User_talk:Dcattell. Dcattell (talk) 18:56, 25 June 2014 (UTC) PS: Just to add to my reply to you on my talk page (and contrary to what it may seem on the article history page), I'm not really making substantive changes to the QTS article, I'm just trying to get the infobox code to work, which I commented upon at Talk:Quan Tangshi‎. (I did move "ChTS" to Infobox & add QTS explanation). I'm thinking about reformatting infobox (prob as generic), with traditional before simplified, unless you object. Cheers, Dcattell (talk) 07:45, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of C. T. Loo
Hello! Your submission of C. T. Loo at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 21:39, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Wilkinson Chinese History A Manual Cover.jpg
 Thanks for uploading File:Wilkinson Chinese History A Manual Cover.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 18:58, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

DYK for C. T. Loo
— Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:38, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Many thanks! This is especially meaningful coming from you, from whom I have learned so much! Now I can reveal that far from being a Grand Historian, in fact I am a doberman pinscher. ch (talk) 15:38, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You're very welcome, ch, and thank you for your kind words. I have myself learned more from WP and its editors (especially its prolific content editors like you) than I have contributed. But we've known from the start that you are a PinscHer Doberman! That makes your refusal to bite all and willingness to help the more admirable. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 08:25, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

DYK on Yuxian
Hi ch! I have just received notice of this: Template:Did you know nominations/Yuxian (Qing dynasty), but I have to pack for a trip tomorrow morning and I plan to be off WP for a few days, so I don't have time to take care of it. If you have time and, like me, you feel that the "hook" is a bit misleading, could you please say so on that page? As a hook, I was thinking of something more like ".... that Yuxian, whom foreigners nicknamed the "butcher of Shan-hsi" after the Boxer Rebellion, may not have executed the Oberlin Band after all?" (or something a little smoother ), but that would require a new reference on the "Oberlin Band" that I'm too short on time to find and add in! So if you have time and feel inclined... All the best! Madalibi (talk) 14:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks,, for thinking of me. As we're refreshed and just back from a visit to the sea and seafood, I'll follow this up and do my best. I agree that "the Butcher of Shanxi" says as much about foreign mythologizing as it does about the (very real) crimes on the Chinese side.ch (talk) 17:30, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Fu Shanxiang
Hello! Your submission of Fu Shanxiang at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 19:10, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Novel versus book
Hello, CWH. I noticed you changed "novel" to "book" in two of the Melville articles I recently edited. With the exception of The Piazza Tales, the books Melville wrote from Typee through The Confidence-Man are considered novels by the reliable sources, they're listed as novels in the navbox, and they're categorized under Novels by Herman Melville. Why the distinction? Regards, Bede735 (talk) 02:28, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi, good to hear from you. I put a quick note on your TalkPage explaining what I saw as the question. But to keep this discussion public, I probably should have posted it first at Herman Melville, so let's open it there instead. See you there! ch (talk) 02:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Fu Shanxiang
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:03, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Huachung University
As part of my work in clearing up old Article for Creation drafts, I rewrote the copypasted content and accepted a draft article for United Board for Christian Higher Education in Asia, and tried to fill in the red links. I therefore  started this article, based on your draft at User:CWH/Boone University, but it is obviously only a sketch. It's not clear to me what the title and organization should be for this related group of schools--normally we write the article under the latest title of the amalgamated entity, but the situation here is obviously not straightforward. Sometimes we do need in such cases to write articles under each successive name. You're an expert, and I'm not, so please deal with it further as you think best. My own feeling is that it is advisable to get at least preliminary articles in Wikipedia for all of the Chinese colleges,so proper links can be made, and people can add to them, rather than wait for a full completed treatment.  DGG ( talk ) 14:11, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for thinking of me,, and also thanks for bringing up this topic. You set a good example, which I will try to follow.

You are right that the problem is that after 1949 the private colleges and universities founded before Liberation were amalgamated into state universities and effectively no longer existed, but in the period of Opening and Reform the universities claimed them as part of their historical legacy, sometimes extending back to the Han dynasty. Huachung is a good example (I visited there in 1981 and as an American academic was welcomed as a tie to the old days and introduced to faculty who had been there in the 1930s!). So I will try to create articles, if only stubs, to fill out the thirteen Christian colleges, working from List of Christian colleges in China and Category:Christian colleges in China.

My feeling is that there should be independent articles on the pre-1949 institutions linked, of course, to the main articles on the present day ones. ch (talk) 16:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Wang Ruofei
Hi CWH, how are you? I see that you've been continually producing high-quality new articles. Thanks for your great work! I just nominated one of your recent creations, Wang Ruofei, for DYK. See nomination page. Cheers, Zanhe (talk) 04:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@Zanhe:  -- you're too kind! I didn't see DYK material in that article, but your eye is sharper. You could well be right that a plane crash might be worthy. I also thank you for cleaning up things in several recent articles that I should have caught. I try to understand what you do and to follow your good example.ch (talk) 04:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your kind words. Funny thing is, I was just adding some basic info about the plane crash, with a red link to Wang Ruofei, to the stub Deng Fa, and wondering how many years that link would stay red. And two days later, you turned the red link a fully developed article. It was like miracle! -Zanhe (talk) 21:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Wang Ruofei
— HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  00:03, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Father Mapple
Hello! Your submission of Father Mapple at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 22:49, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Please see new note on DYK nomination page. Yoninah (talk) 23:31, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Please see new note on DYK nomination page. Yoninah (talk) 20:49, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Li Shizeng
— HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  00:03, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Battle of Huangtiandang
Hi ch, in your review of this nomination, you said that the article had already appeared on DYK. I asked for a diff (that's the URL link at the top of your browser, beginning "https//en:wikipedia.org ...", of the previous DYK nomination template. If there was a previous nomination, you would have been able to find it using the "What links here" tool to the left of the page (Battle of Huangtiandang) in question. Diffs are often used in DYK and AFD discussions when you want to point out what someone said or a revision that someone made to a page. For more information, see Help:Diff. Best, Yoninah (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * THanks, I'm beginning to get into the swing of the DYK process and I appreciate your patient help. I've already left further comments on the Battle of... template -- see, I was actually using diffs all along without knowing that's what they were called  Cheers, ch (talk) 19:31, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Father Mapple
— HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  12:03, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Lady Meng Jiang
— HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  12:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi CWH, did you know that Lady Meng Jiang was one of the most viewed DYKs of October 2014? I've added it to WP:DYKSTATS. Cheers! -Zanhe (talk) 23:47, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, once again,, both for your general example and your specific help in sharpening the article and holding it up to high standards, as I have seen you do in other circumstances, as well. I'd like to work over the other Four Legends sooner or later; this statistic shows that there is interest in these topics. ch (talk) 01:20, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

efn
Yes, my mistake, I didn't see the "|" there. I was trying to simulate the previous formatting, which had the quote in the footnote, rather than expressing a preference about where it should go. Kanguole 23:34, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem -- I think I'll move the text up to the main space in any case.ch (talk) 23:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

He Zhen
Hello! First of all, thank you for creating He Zhen (anarchist). I really appreciate it. Secondly, do you think we could rename the article? I'd prefer it not to have "(anarchist)" in the title, due to the clutter factor of it, and while the name "He Zhen" is slightly more used "He-Yin Zhen" was the name preferred by the writer herself, and for example The Birth of Chinese Feminism: Essential Texts in Transnational Theory make note that they use that name out of respect to her personal preference. Stamboliyski (talk) 06:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi, and thanks in return for creating the Xin Shiji article, which goosed me into finishing the He Zhen/ He-Yin Zhen article, which had been sitting in my sandbox for far too long. I went with "He Zhen" for the reason you say, that there are more references, but you are right that the Liu/ Karl/ Ko volume probably trumps them, and in any case that she herself preferred He-Yin. So if you'd like to make the move, it's fine with me.
 * BTW, I hope that you might consider making a few more articles in the China area. I looked at your list of articles and you have a nice touch -- just enough detail without getting bogged down, nice clear writing, good sources. Are you on the Anarchism task force? I suppose I should be, but I come more from the China side.


 * One dirty-work task might be to add sources to the Anarchism in China article, which now is pretty bare. I think you are familiar with the sources. There are also some red-links that might be turned into articles. If you start things off, I'd be glad to pitch in. If it becomes a Good Article, then it's eligible for Did You Know mention, which greatly increases the number of visits (at least for a day!).
 * Cheers in any case ch (talk) 17:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd like a move, yeah. It seems like the best option, I feel. As for task force - no, I am not. Didn't know one existed, actually. And as for redlinks and what not, yeah, I'm going to work on some. I got at least two related to He Zhen / He-Yin Zhen lined up (the group she started, and the newspaper related to her). Hopefully, we can eventually improve the overall Anarchism in China article, once there are sufficient "backup" articles to provide extra material. Stamboliyski (talk) 17:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, there's a group under Portal:Anarchism, which also has a bunch of lists and listings. I agree that that there should be more articles in this area, but don't think that the main article Anarchism in China needs to be longer, just more tightly written and better noted. When articles get too long, readers don't read them, so I think your strategy of "backup" articles is a good one.


 * The old Scalapino/Yu article is outdated in relation to Dirlik, Zarrow et al, but still very useful partly because it mentions all the major people and themes, usually with enough detail for most purposes, but also because it's available for free online, which is good for many readers who don't have access to a major library. ch (talk) 19:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Many thanks to you, for the suggestion that started it off!ch (talk) 06:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Brook Ziporyn
If the Afd comes out as deletion, I recommend that you continue to do your research on Brook Ziporyn, write a good solid article on him that clearly makes appropriate claims to notability which are supported by reliable sources, and then create the new article on him. I suggest that you work on and write the article either off-line, or in your own Wikipedia sandbox. If you want to save anything from the existing article, please copy it to your workspace before the end of the Afd. My own experience suggests that you will have a difficult time, but go for it. Remember it will face the same rigourous standards that it does now, and that new objections may be raised. (It has happened to me.) Good luck, but I cannot support an extension of the Afd, since the article has been around since 1 February 2011. --Bejnar (talk) 03:24, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the kind words and good advice. I looked around a little and find that the notability bar for academics is much higher than athletes in, say, Notability Basketball where they are notable if they "appeared in one game as either a player or head coach" in, among other leagues, the Asociación de Clubs de Baloncesto. This obviously not the place to debate policy, though I do find it hard to understand the rush to delete.ch (talk) 04:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Music, entertainment and athletics (bread and circuses) have a large popular following, hence their demand for a lower bar. The best that could be done in those cases was a "bright line rule" so that obvious cases could be eliminated and most gray ones weren't endlessly argued over. (But see the current debate at Articles for deletion/Joe Millay.) There are not so many bright line rules for academics, even fewer for bureaucrats.  The joys of a collaborative universe! --Bejnar (talk) 05:12, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Because things can be brought back, and are (sometimes it seems endlessly) Wikipedia has relatively short decision times for many of its common processes. Others, like RFCs have no such structure and often reach no resolution. The debate over towns in the US being in the form "name, state" comes up about every six months. --Bejnar (talk) 05:20, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Your observations make a lot of sense, but it is also true that Wikipedia aspires to be more than "bread and circuses." Please look at my list of contributions to see if I am a responsible editor (BTW, technically I would pass the criteria for Academic Notability). Can you explain to me why I should continue to give a shit about Wikipedia when good editors like you will not support me in a reasonable request? I simply want to treat a widely published and influential scholar as of equal importance with someone who has played one game of basketball in Spain. I will not retrieve the article from the trash-heap. I submit that it is your responsibility to make distinctions such as these.ch (talk) 06:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, stand on the form and neglect the substance. That works well (sarcasm). It is not a trash heap. While only about half of the articles that I've seriously worked on and that were subsequently deleted, have been successfully, albeit with changes, reinstated, I've found that the results have contributed to balanced, reliable information being readily available on the web. Most recent was the article on Ong Kean Swan. You ask an existential "why".  The answer is All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. I encourage you to continue to contribute to the Wikipedia.  By the way concerning "reasonable request": Given the Wikipedia rules regarding Afds, requesting a few weeks delay in an ongoing Afd debate is not only not reasonable, it is not possible. Results may be possible, but violations of procedure usually are not.  --Bejnar (talk) 21:24, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion, please!
Hey, ch. I'm working on an unfinished draft article in my userspace and I'd like your opinion on what it should be called. There is no generally agreed-upon English language name for the subject. I have been considering Autumn Hunt (the current name in the draft, translated from the Chinese name), Qiuxian (the Chinese name), Imperial hunt of the Qing dynasty (a descriptive name), Imperial hunt (Qing dynasty) (a variant of the previous name), just Imperial hunt (since the name is not currently being used), and Mulan hunt (after the name of the hunting site). What do you think is the best name? Feel free to suggest alternatives I haven't thought of. Thanks! --Difference engine (talk) 04:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Good to hear from you! I'll put my comments on the Talk Page of your terrific draft, however, so others can chime in.ch (talk) 05:47, 11 January 2015 (UTC)