User talk:CarlosPn

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Popes activities
Thank you for your informative notes on the pope. You might consider putting an edited version of what you left me (with paragraphs and maybe even subsections) on the discussion page on the article. There's a lot of information there.

I am unenthused about the article itself. Most popes listed did nothing wrong. Were married before Holy Orders, their spouses died. Were legally married since the early church saw nothing wrong with this for clerics. So the presence of all those names is absurd, in my opinion. The title is English was selected to titillate a readership, in itself a pov violation IMO.

Why is there no "sexual activities of the presidents of the US?" Or "Hollywood actors/actresses who cheated on their spouses?" One reason is that you can't come up with an article that isn't flattering to some other organization in society that Wikipedia admins will allow. Only Catholic targets are allowed. Very biased IMO.

But I will continue to edit and help where I can. Student7 (talk) 00:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to WikiProject Catholicism!


Hello,, and welcome to Wikiproject Catholicism! Thank you for your generous offer to help contribute. I'm sure your input will be much appreciated. I hope you enjoy contributing here and being a Catholic Project Wikipedian! If you have any questions, feel free to discuss anything on the project talk page, or to leave a message on my own talk page. Please remember to sign all your comments, and be bold with your edits. Again, welcome, and happy editing! --Thw1309 (talk) 16:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Kolobrzeg
Hi Carlos, according to Kolobrzeg, "The chronicle of Thietmar of Merseburg (975-1018) mentions the town as salsa Cholbergiensis as the seat of a bishop, Reinbern from Saxony (Hassegau): With the Congress of Gniezno in 1000, the Holy Roman Emperor Otto III granted the archdiocese of Gniezno the right to form a separate church hierarchy, with Kolberg as one of the dioceses." So I assumed it was still a diocese in 1220. Is this information incorrect? Adam Bishop (talk) 19:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks! For Albenga I believe the source was Conrad Eubel, Hierarchia Catholica. I neglected to write down the source for every bishop, but generally, the names that are still in Latin are taken from Eubel. Eubel is a very old source and there may be better, more recent, sources, so if you find any mistakes, you are welcome to change them! Adam Bishop (talk) 13:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Good work!
Good work on those papal conclave articles! Its good to see someone else working in this relatively arcane field. Savidan 17:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

re: Papal conclave, 1667
I've added some in-text citations to my article Papal conclave, 1667. However, I left you to judge whether it's sufficient to remove the box "morefootnotes". The primary source for this article is the book of Valerie Pirie, "The Triple Cropwn: An account of the Papal Conclaves", which is available online. The list of patricipants and the informations about them are according to informations on the website The Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church by Salvador Miranda. CarlosPn (talk) February 19, 2008 20:54 (CET)


 * Hello, CarlosPn. Thank you for your note and your quick referencing. I've removed the morefootnotes tag from the article. I'd suggest adding an actual reference for footnote #1, as the wikiarticle Papal conclave, 1621 does not exist yet. That article will need its own references, too, when it comes into existence. The same ref can be used in this article, right? Happy editing. :-) --PFHLai (talk) 05:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW, I've nominated this article for consideration to appear on the Main Page as part of Did you know. You can see the hook for the article at Template talk:Did you know, where you can improve it if you see fit. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 06:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

nom

 * ...that Gregory XIII the first pope canonised since the 13th century was elected by the Papal conclave of 1572? by CarlosPn OK? Victuallers (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Another cardinal-nephew?
What do you make of "Ludovico Migliorati" described as a cardinal-nephew in the article of Pope Innocent VII? Is he the same as the Giovanni Migliorati that we already have? If not, then the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church site doesn't have him. But I have seen him listed in other sources, including The Catholic Encyclopedia and Papal Geneaology. What say you? Savidan 23:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Same for "CAETANI STEFANESCHI, Giacomo" described as a nephew by the Catholic Encyclopedia but not by the Cardinals site ... Savidan 05:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Camerlengo of the Sacred College of Cardinals
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Papal election, 1185

 * Glad to see that you are back on the papal election project (and correctly calling them elections instead of conclaves)! I may have lost my appetite for writing these for the moment, but I am always interested in reading about them. Savidan 23:25, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Great work on the template too! Almost makes me want to start writing these again to see how far we've come. Savidan 23:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Papal election, 1227
You've got a good start going here. I think its a bit curious that the two known members of the committee were selected for the job (as such I am a little put off by the "reluctantly" language). In general, it seems like every papal election chronicler notes the the pontiff elected was "reluctant" and that the vote was "unanimous" (the later failing to note that this was likely only after the candidate obtained a two-thirds majority, after which a accessus is traditional) as though either of these features were unique to that election or likely to be true. I also wonder whether the committee had the actual power to elect a pope or only (as some later committee's had) the power to present a its decision to the full college for a vote. I'll be interested to see how this article develops. Savidan 14:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * For the conclave, January 1276, do I presume too much to say the location may have been the Basilica di San Francesco di Arezzo? I've been trying to populate Category:Sites of papal elections more. Savidan 00:31, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Papal conclave, 1592 DYK

 * Thanks for untangling that. I must admit, I was a little confused about the chronology myself. I'll untangle the articles asap. Savidan 22:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems like we're racking up a bunch of people on the list of cardinal-nephews whose status as either a cardinal or a relative is dispute/uncertain. How would you feel about having a visual symbol (like the cross sign we currently have for CN) for each of those? Savidan 22:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Benedict Stuart
Thanks for your helpful and constructive comments under this article. I think your conclusions are broadly right and agree that the text as it stands needs to be a bit more nuanced. I'm happy to have a go at doing this. Contaldo80 (talk) 15:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Great find with Pius VII! I guess the Cardinals site is fallible after all... Savidan 01:07, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There are two possibilities here: either one of the alternate names for the Arnaud's is Fournier or they were proposing the election of a non-cardinal. Having done a bit of research about Arnaud de Pellegrue, I think we can be relatively certain it is not him; the others I know less about. Savidan 15:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Again I do really want to commend you about your attempts to look objectively at the Stuart article and contribute some neutral but very helpful observations. I'm sorry that you're leaving the discussion to move onto other areas - it's a shame because sometimes you need a clear head to balance out opposing sides and get an article of quality! Contaldo80 (talk) 11:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Papal conclave, 1304–1305
Can we say for DYK that this was the only papal election post-1061 where no cardinal-elector present, would ever become pope? We can safely rule out the vast majority of elections where a cardinal was chosen (double checking the one where an absentee cardinal was chosen); and then I think we are clear for the other five non-cardinal elections, with the possible exception of the 11th century. Would you mind checking the Polish Wikipedia? Savidan 16:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I only listed the cardinal bishops because they were the only ones with suffrage, hence the only cardinal-electors. But yeah, it seems like there's too many exceptions to be writing this. Thanks. Savidan 20:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ranieri is listed as the Camerlengo for this time period in the Camerlengo article (and, if I was the one that added this information, on Miranda's page). I'm not saying you are wrong about the other guy, but there can't be two at the same time, can there? Savidan 20:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Gotcha. Should we consider a split of that article. The list doesn't seem to be very discriminatory. Savidan 21:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Papal conclave, 1774–1775 DYK
By all means. If you write a separate article, I suggest that a brief section be left in the Council of Constance article and be linked with the {main} template. Once such an article is written, the conclaves template can be moved from the CoC article to that one. I merely thought that linking the CoC article would do a much better service to readers than a redlink being as the conclave was (as I ignorantly understand) a subset of the council.

On a related note, I removed the antipapal conclaves from the template, but am now beginning to have second thoughts. If you think that there is a reasonable chance that these will be written, you may add them back, in which case I suggest italicizing them and including a note in the template as to what the italics refer to. I don't plan on writing any of them in the near future, but maybe you think you can do them justice. Savidan 19:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Very interesting. I'll look into this more. Could you maybe add something to the effect of your comments into the article? Doesn't have to be as thorough, just to explain that "Pandolphus" (according to those articles, the Pandolphus authorship of the L.P. is also in doubt) source lists only the six, and that the other source lists these additional ones. Savidan 16:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Adrian IV
I've got a couple of questions about the dating of Breakspeare's appointment to Albano. Bishop of Albano has it as 1146, and the "Tull" reference suggests 1146 (but could be open to alternative interpretation). Could you


 * add a ref for 1149 if you have one,
 * move the Tull reference to a point in the text before the 1149 date (because Tull doesn't support 1149) and
 * correct the date in the succession box further down the page.

Thanks, Bazj (talk) 15:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, nicely done. Bazj (talk) 13:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Formating advice
Your articles on papal elections and conclaves are greatly appreciated. Just a note on format: Wikipedia prefers that references come after periods. Thus, " . " and not " . " Thanks and good work! Srnec (talk) 18:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Papal election, 1159
The article Papal election, 1159 you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. It hasn't failed because it's basically a good article, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within seven days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See Talk:Papal election, 1159 for things needed to be addressed. Arsenikk (talk)  11:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I passed the article with a few minor tweaks. Back a month or so ago I GA reviewed Papal conclave, 1314–1316; the article was almost at standard, but there were some sources lacking (think it was who were cardinals or something around that). I had to fail the article since the author seems to have gone on a permanent wikibreak. Anyway, just wondering if you could take a look at it, fix up the reference suggestions in the article and then renominate for GA (if you have the appropriate sources available). Otherwise, congratulations with the good article. Arsenikk (talk)  13:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Carlos!
I just want to acknowledge your continued effort at sorting out the archpriests at St Peters. Amandajm (talk) 10:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Pope John Paul II

 * Hello Carlos, We are looking for help on the Pope John Paul II article in order to improve it and raise it to ‘Good Article’ and eventually ‘Featured Article’ status. So, I though I would invite you to take a look. Any help would be much appreciated.
 * Kind Regards     02:09, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Papal election, 1294
Are you sure this was held in Castel Nuovo? According to this site it was one of the 5 held in Palazzo delle Canoniche (and I believe the other 4 to be correct). The other possibility is that I am wrong about the papal election, 1292-1294. Savidan 00:00, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ooops! I just went back and re-read the latter article (it's been a while...). Looks like that site was overclaiming the election a bit because it was held in multiple locations. Savidan 00:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Cardinal-nephews list
Carlos, many of the points you raise are quite valid. Please feel free to make whatever changes you deem to be necessary to the list; your contributions to date have been excellent. However, I would note that my preference in most of the cases that you highlight would be to note the uncertainty/dispute and add a footnote (perhaps as a standard reference; perhaps in a different format) discussing the historiography/source issues in question. I believe that if a source of decent quality lists a person as a cardinal-nephew, and another source disagrees that is something well-worth noting. Only if the source making the cardinal-nephew claim is of very low quality would I suggest removal as the best option. I would suggest creating two visual identifiers (i.e. a small graphic or symbol to place after the bullet point): one for persons whose cardinalate is disputed/uncertain; one for persons whose relationship is disputed/uncertain. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me; let me know what you think. Savidan 22:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * For example: Berretta cardinalizia.png for disputed cardinalate and No-Stemma.png for disputed relationship. Savidan 22:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't really know which account is more or less accurate. It's a pity that the link you sent me doesn't give more warranted explanation to sort out the differing accounts. Feel free to edit the article in question as you see fit; certainly it should not longer be written in its current form if the fact in question is disputed by reliable sources. However, it is my preference to write more, not less, in response to such situations. Stating which sources say one thing and which sources say another is a good start. If you could figure out what objective facts we could use to attempt to distinguish between the accounts, that would be great too. Savidan 18:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Jacobi Gaytani
I ran into a reference to him while writing Ordinarium Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae. I think he was a cardinal, either when he wrote that or afterwards, possibly Caetani/Gaetani. Can't find a positive match on Mirandas' site. Any ideas? Savidan 00:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Popes, etc.
You have some great ideas. We need to do something ASAP. There was a 2-week semi-protect which expires shortly. Then we have the unregistered guy to contend with again. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

List of cardinal-nephews
I have recently restructured the list with the hopes of nominating it to be a Featured list in the near future. Could you let me know your thoughts on the new format and whether you think this list is complete? Savidan 15:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's what I was going to comment on. Since it seems we've already bumped up against the edges of the certain cardinal-nephews, it seem like anyone else that we might find in the future has gone undiscovered so far for a reason, namely that their historical status is quite dubious. I will implement your changes with reference to the symbols. As for the redlinks, I don't think those will be a problem as far as the FLC; I've looked through Miranda's entries on some of the remaining redlinks and its possible some of these may not even merit an article (as opposed to simply adding the content to the article about the pope). I would certainly welcome your input on which of the redlinked entries are article-worthy. Nice work on the foreign cardinals article! Savidan 20:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Just fyi, I plan on nominating the list as soon as my current FLC (List of tombs of antipopes) concludes. Savidan 23:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * And it has been nominated. Savidan 20:06, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Would you mind noting the language of any non-English references that you have added to the references section of List of cardinal-nephews? For example, if the source is German, you could add immediately between the * and the authors last name (no new spaces). Italian is "it"; French is "fr"; Polish is "pl"; etc., I believe it follows the same convention as the non-english Wikipedias. Thanks in advance. Savidan 17:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Secondly, on notes 2, 4, 7, and 20, you have listed a variety of sources that "do not mention" an individual's cardinalate. I am a little bit troubled by this method, as I believe it could be construed as "original research". Obviously, I support the inclusion of the "disputed" symbols in instances where secondary sources actively disagree with the claim made by another secondary source that someone was promoted to the cardinalate. However, when one secondary source says that someone was promoted to the cardinalate, and another says nothing, I think that could just as easily be evidence that the other source is not comprehensive or did not mean to speak to that claim. Constructing the lack of mention as arguing against someone's promotion to the cardinalate, is--in my mind--original research. I am willing to be persuaded otherwise, however. Savidan 18:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll wait for your new article then. Savidan 17:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Foreign cardinal
I think you are free to use either term as neither is that entrenched as a term of art. It is difficult to do a google test as most of the results are not about Catholicism. "Foreign cardinal" curial gets >50 hits; "External cardinal" curial gets only one (on google scholar). I would keep the title as is. Savidan 20:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

re: Prospero Colonna
The Trollope source does indicate that Colonna was probably the Dean. Could you please cite the source that states he was the protodeacon instead, or&mdash;if possible&mdash;explain why Trollope thought that but was mistaken? Savidan 16:37, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the insight. I will be more skeptical of some of Trollope's exact identifications in the future, as he often does seem to have trouble with associated given names with sees. Savidan 21:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

List of papal elections
I have added a references column as a first step toward making this a featured list. If you know of another good general reference that includes descriptions of many or all conclaves (or even the best descriptions for a more limited period) feel free to add those. Conversely, I am worried about cluttering the article with too many references. Also, what are your thoughts on including the number of electors and the length of the election in the list (as a few non-English language wikis do). Do you believe that this will give rise to more footnotes about disputed numbers than undisputed? Savidan 00:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * So what would be your preference on including these columns? I am leaning toward not at the moment but could easily be persuaded otherwise. Savidan 15:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

External cardinal, review on hold
The GA review for the article External cardinal is currently on hold, awaiting further improvements before it is passed or failed. You have seven days in which to make any changes, before I have reached a judgement. Please discuss anything on the GA Review page. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Cardinal-nephew photo
These photos are getting deleted all the time. Usually for frivolous copyright reasons. The option is to find a new photo or replace the photos (including the non-deleted ones) with a symbol. What do you think? Savidan 15:56, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Papal conclave, 1492
Thanks for your work on this GA reassessment. I added a couple of sections to the lead to help summarize the article better. Could you please look it over and let me know if you think it works? It can be tweaked if necessary, but I'll wrap up the reassessment as soon as you let me know if you're okay with the phrasing of the lead. GaryColemanFan (talk) 13:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

List of the creations of the cardinals
I thought you might be interested, for the purposes of your list in Cardinals created by Pope Pius XII in 1946 and Cardinals created by Pope Pius XII in 1953. It appears that you have proposed in your list having only one article per pope, rather than one per occasion. I am not particularly attached to these articles (which I did not personally created), so would be happy with whatever you decide on. Savidan 19:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I like your idea about a separate article on the "Historiography of cardinals" or some title like that. You probably know better than me, but I imagine there are common issues that could be elucidated once and referred to very briefly thereafter. For example, you could list and discuss the merits of the various methods of finding names of cardinals (looking at notes of consistories, titles used in documents, lists of electors, lists of signatories, etc.) and then it would be a simple matter to note when one method suggests a cardinal which is contradicted by another. The same goes for sources, if you think any of the main sources require some explanation as to their methods and credibility, as well as whether one source is largely derivative from another or from a group of sources. I think such an article could also note the degree of uncertainty associated with each historical period: i.e. periods where most cardinals are uncertain, periods where only a few cardinals are uncertain, and periods where the uncertainty has disappeared for all practical purposes. As for the individual articles, I agree that one article per pope is better than multiple, but there may be cases where even such an article is excessive. If I were you, I would start with articles where there is historical commentary on the cardinal-creating event itself. Savidan 21:53, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Help needed!
Can you please translate this paragraph into Polish for my organization? We are a university organization in the United States and are trying to have our purpose statement translated into many languages of the world.

The purpose of the Global Student Organization shall be to promote interest in issues of global significance, to create better inter-cultural relations, to foster international friendship and understanding, and to provide a forum for the presentation of innovative ideas for the benefit of the University community.

The name of the organization means the Organization of Global Students.

Thank you, --Getoar TX (talk) 09:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Reviewer granted
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Antonio Barberini and Marc'Antonio Pasqualini
Hi, you contributed to Antonio Barberini with particular reference to Marc'Antonio Pasqualini and their relationship. I have finally managed to get around to creating a page for Marc'Antonio Pasqualini and would appreciate any contribution you might have.

Thanks, Stalwart111 (talk) 11:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Theodwin
G'day mate. More fun and games with centuries-old references... ha ha. One source has him listed as attending the string of 1140s papal elections though is also confirms a number of returns to Germany in those same years. In 1145 he is supposed to have attended the election but in that same year he was sent to Germany prior to the second Crusade. The same is the case earlier in 1143, as indeed you pointed out. Surely it's possible both are correct. Rome to Germany would have been a fairly lengthy journey but clearly not impossible given records suggest he went back and forth a number of times.

Then there's the 1153 election two years after one source suggests he died. But another source suggests he died in 1153, in Rome (which presumably would have been not long after the election were it true). I've included a note about the date-of-death contention and have better-qualified the suggestion he attended the papal election.

Any ideas for the other issues? Would be nice to resolve them - at least well enough to acknowledge the conflicting sources while giving as much information as possible.

Stalwart111 (talk) 23:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! That makes sense; those references seem to give a far more comprehensive account of his whereabouts (as much as that's possible given the context). Your edits explain the disparity well; nice work. Stalwart111 (talk) 23:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * (I might copy-and-paste a copy of this back-and-forth on the talk page of the article for future reference)

Crown-cardinal
G'day mate. I know you keep an eye on this one. I spent a little while going through the list and checking some of the links, names, dates, etc. Some were fairly easy to match up to articles you and I have created and a few that have been around for a while so I linked them all up. Cheers, Stalwart 111  (talk) 11:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

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List of papal elections
There are still a few unknown locations on the list. I've done my best to find a more specific location, but about a dozen have only been narrowed down to a city. If you know more specific locations for these, please feel free to add. Savidan 18:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

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Thanks - could you have a look at the sources at the Leo X page?
Thank you for checking the sources in your recent edit. Could you have a look at the same sources for Pope Leo X, and the section in general? I'm somewhat tempted to put a synthesis tag on the whole section, because it seems to move from (intentionally) vague and euphemistic comments to definite and serious accusations. For example, the section attributes something far more serious to what might only have been improper favoritism. And we apparently do not have contemporary historians saying "yes, that is actually what the old historians meant". Openverse (talk) 19:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Antonio Barberini
Hey mate! Thanks for this one - good edit. I was trying to find a good way to paraphrase that source. "Alegedly..." being a direct quote, I went with "scandalous" from the line prior given I was already directly quoting. But I'd rather use our own words (without the quote) if possible. Any suggestions? Stalwart 111  11:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, entirely fair enough. Anyway, feel free to amend as you see fit! Stalwart 111  13:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Decided just to start a discussion thread here. Would appreciate your input. Cheers! Stalwart 111  10:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Some simple help maybe needed - the new papabili list
If you have the time and the possibility the new List of papabili in the 2013 papal conclave WP article could need some help. You could start by taking a look at the talk page. Thanks Pgarret (talk) 09:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC))

References for protodeacons
Hi CarlosPn. I notice that you gave a very helpful response here to a question about references regarding the role of the protodeacon. I also notice that there is a unreferenced section tag over at Cardinal (Catholicism). Perhaps you could help by adding some references to the latter? Thanks, --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 16:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Scipione Borghese
Really helpful find on the information relating to Giovanni Antonio Marte! Contaldo80 (talk) 14:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Tomás de Torquemada
Hi Carlos. Just so you know it is not very helpful to indiscriminately move references from one place to another within an article without having any basis for that relocation. It is also not very historical in its procedure and probably runs counter to historical work. Regards, Steve. Stevenmitchell (talk) 11:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Feast day listed at Redirects for discussion
I have asked for a discussion to address the redirect Feast day. You might want to participate in the redirect discussion. You are receiving this message because you are a member of WikiProject Catholicism and/or WikiProject Saints --Jayarathina (talk) 12:32, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

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Catholic-Hierarchy.org
Hello. I noticed that you have edited a number of articles on Catholicism. A discussion is taking place as to whether the website Catholic-Hierarchy.org is a reliable source that can be utilized on Wikipedia or whether all references and information derived from it should be deleted. This topic is currently being discussed at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. As the website's removal as a reference will affect several thousand Wikipedia articles, I believe that the broadest range of opinions should be obtained before action is taken. Please contribute if interested.Patapsco913 (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Bentivenga de Bentivengis
Langlois is, of course, decisive in terms of abandoning a June date. He is so annoying, in that his lemma fails to note that it is Cardinal Bentivenga and that he has died; you have to go to Ughelli to find that out. The date of the Testament is not, of course, decisive as to the day of death. I suspect that Ughelli's date is an inference from the date of the Testament.

I must, I fear, take issue in terms of methodology with your remark, "the author not particularly reliable and - in any case - not a contemporary one". If only contemporary authors were reliable, we would be in sad shape; but as we both know, 'contemporaneous' does not guarantee truth. Also, testing individual facts cannot depend on 'reliable' authors. No author is reliable, actually; one has to test every author's statements as to fact. BTW, I just caught Eubel Vol. 1 2nd ed. in an error as to the burial place of Cardinal Simon de Beaulieu. The Elder Pliny once remarked that there is no such thing as a totally useless bool.

But thanks very much for catching a serious misstep on my part! Vicedomino (talk) 08:29, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Revert of d'Estouteville's date
With regard to the date of d'Estouteville becoming Bishop of Porto-Santa Rufina, I was following Eubel, II, p. 60. I was aware that Santa Rufina was separated off for Kemp on 21 July 1452. But Miranda states (under Kemp's biography) that the sees were reunited on the death of Francesco Condulmer on 30 October 1453. Therefore and thereafter, Kemp became Bishop of Porto-Santa Rufina, and there was a fully vacant see of Porto-Santa Rufina from the death of Kemp on 22 March 1454. What was going on, in your view, between 22 March 1454 and 1459 in the diocese of Port-Santa Rufina? Is Miranda wrong about the reunion? Do you have some evidence? BTW, Miranda says that d'Estouteville opted for Porto in 1455. I find it impossible to believe that Porto was empty for five years! --Vicedomino (talk) 06:09, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your quick reply. The H. Denifle-E. Chatelain, Chartularium Universitatis Parisiensis, IV, Paris 1898, pp. 713-734 gave me some trouble; the ref. is actually in the Intro. on p. xxiv. The Ammannati-Piccolomini ref. and the Pastor II, p. 544, are conclusive.  I can't check the ref. in the Vatican Archives for the date of creation.  So Eubel is wrong again, and so is Miranda.   I still wonder about the long delay in the Sede Vacante at Porto!  Just the materials collected by Eubel II, Appendix I, pp. 26 ff.  suggest that options were exercised quite quickly after a vacancy occurs—from 10 days to 6 months.  Any thoughts?  Again, I appreciate the courtesy of a quick reply and the information.   --Vicedomino (talk) 10:01, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Estouteville's Birth date
The original statement "Guillaume d'Estouteville, (1403/1412–1483) was a ..." was not mine, and so I have nothing invested in protecting it. I note that you recently changed the text by deleting the 1403 option by citing Esposito. I surmise, since she says "verso il 1412" that she does not have his birth certificate from the Vatican Archives, though she has a very long list of other documents from that source. The date of 1403 has the authority of the 1637 commemorative inscription in S. Agostino behind it, where it states that he was eighty years old at his death (in 1483). I personally have no trust in that inscription, which lauds d'Estouteville's alleged Benedictine connection, but it is some support for 1403. What is behind Esposito's remark? Do you have any insight? --Vicedomino (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you again. If he were only 21 when he obtained his university Master's degrees (a point that worries Denifle & Chatelain, xxiii), then there might be some point in Pope Eugenius' remark that he had actually earned them and passed the exams.  I think D&C ought to be sourced for the date of 1412 rather than, or in addition to, Esposito.  --Vicedomino (talk) 22:21, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Estouteville and Black Death
Lest you think that I am responsible for the nonsense of the Black Death which you deleted, I draw your attention (if you haven't already seen it) to the Talk section, where I marked it out for deletion and gave a reason or three for doing so. Thanks for doing the deletion for me. --Vicedomino (talk) 08:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

GAR
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