User talk:DJ1AM

Persian Phonology
Please do not change sourced material. If you have an academic source, then please include it for discussion. Please follow wikipedia policies. Thanks. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Same
Dj1AM, thank you for your efforts to improve wikipedia. If you have reliable sources for your more controversial edits, please include them. We are all trying to make wikipedia the best encyclopedia possible, and while we don't always see eye to eye on some things, we can all agree that reliable sources will help WP align with current scholarship.

Specifically concerning Persian phonology, if you have reliable sources for your edits, this would help ease the slight friction that some of us are feeling. Unfortunately Odden's pedagogical excercise isn't really a reliable source. If there are not reliable sources for these changes, please be understanding why others might prefer a different version.

Thanks again for your efforts, –jonsafari (talk) 05:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Dj1AM. Yes, this whole issue seems to revolve around reliable sources (either for or against trilled r, in this case).  Having dealt with this subject, I've had plenty of difficulty finding reliable sources for many aspects of Persian phonology.  Even the IPA handbook is less than perfect in this respect (!).  I see David Odden around every once in a while, so I guess I could ask him his opinion, but know that he has never published anything (AFAIK) on Persian phonology specifically (nor does he speak the language), so even he wouldn't be as reliable as we'd like.
 * The closest thing to a RS that I've seen is Mahootian (1997:292)'s short discussion on Persian phonology (your local university library might have it). She's not a phonetician or phonologist, but is a native speaker with a PhD in linguistics, and is pretty well-respected in the Persian linguistics field in general, and is quite well-rounded in linguistics -- she'd have to be for Bernard Comrie to want her to write a descriptive grammar of the language.  I posted this reference yesterday on the Persian phonology article.
 * I'll try to cite this ref more in the relevant articles, so that there's at least some reference out there on this issue.


 * I guess the whole point of RS is that nobody needs to (necessarily) believe what another editor is writing, so long as the RS backs up their claim. So you don't need to believe others' unsourced edits, but likewise they don't need to believe you when you say you don't remember your sources, even if they are backed up by your personal encounters with native speakers.  RS is the only fallback we have here on WP for disagreements on the veracity of something, and so unfortunately recollections of sources and personal experiences aren't enough.


 * So for the time being, until there are some good RS to back up the pervasive trilled r, all we have to rely on as a RS is Mahootian (1997:292), which says otherwise. But I'm more than happy to entertain alternative theories when you come up with RS to back them up.


 * Thanks for your williingness to discuss the topic. –jonsafari (talk) 20:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

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Stephen Colbert
Hi,

Please stick to WP's IPA conventions, unless there is a reason to diverge from it. Also, it's generally best to put the slashes and brackets within the IPA template, so the fonts don't clash on our readers' browsers. kwami (talk) 00:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it's not phonetic, so shouldn't use brackets. We're not promoting any one pronunciation, but rather a phonological form to be pronounced according to the reader's dialect. kwami (talk) 05:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Please review template:usage of IPA templates and WP:pronunciation. I'm having to revert or correct nearly every IPA edit you make. It's not appropriate to give a phonemic transcription of a foreign language, as at Susa, without defining what the symbols stand for. ([a] has a meaning defined by the IPA. /a/ does not.) Eventually we'll get an IPA for Persian template set up (which you could certainly help with), and adjust the articles accordingly. Also, English has /r/ on Wikipedia, not "/ɹ/". "/ɹ/" is undefined, and therefore meaningless. Of course, phonetically it is [ɹʷ], not [r], but phonetic transcription is inappropriate because we'd have to choose a standard dialect, either telling Brits that correct English is American, or Yanks that correct English is British. kwami (talk) 22:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Except that there is no /a/ in English (that would make four low vowels, alongside /æ, ɑː, ɒ/), so if you use it, the transcription is meaningless as English. As for /r/, that's a discussion to take up at WP:IPA for English. It's purely arbitrary: we could transcribe it /♣/ if we liked. /r/ was chosen because it's common, familiar, and practical. kwami (talk) 03:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

PRODs
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