User talk:Exucmember

G'day!
G'day there, Exucmember, and welcome to Wikipedia! Good authors are always welcome on the project, and I hope you like the place and decide to stick around!

We've got a few pages you might find helpful, such as: It's all best summed up here: write from a neutral point of view, play nice with others, and don't let the rules get you down.
 * Our "five pillars"
 * The lowdown on editing
 * A detailed tutorial
 * Our house manual of style

If you have any questions or need any help, my talkpage is always open for business, or you can see Newcomers help page. Here's a tip to start you off: if you type four tildes at the end of any messages you leave on talkpages (like this one) Wikipedia will automatically insert your name and the current date and time after your message. Cool, eh? Happy editing! fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:UTS pic.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:UTS pic.jpg. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this:.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me, or ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. the iBook of the Revolution 03:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC) PS: If you cut and paste the wording that says the pic can be reused onto my talk page, I can figure it out from there for you.

Unification Church (User:Marknw's thesis on Politics in Divine Principle)
Hello Exucmember, I would like to change some of the edits you made. It is wikipedia policy to colaborate on major changes to an article. You made some statements that seem heavily from you own POV. It is polite to ask before moving a whole section. I would like to change back some of the edits you made to the politics section I was working on. I would also like to colaborate with you if you have an interest in this subject. With Regards Marknw 05:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have delayed responding, as I found your comments and actions offensive, but have no desire to be in conflict with you or to express any emotion in my response. You say it is Wikipedia policy to "colaborate" on major changes to an article, but all I did was create a new page for the large section you wrote, which conforms in an exemplary manner to Wikipedia guidelines, as the page was getting too long (more than 32k), and that section was the most peripheral in my judgement (and, I would guess, in the judgement of most readers). Many people are honored to have a new page created from their material, and some editors boast about new pages they've created, even when they are not very substantial. Wikipedia guidelines repeatedly urge editors to be bold in editing. I am happy to collaborate, and I took the appropriate first step in doing so. Perhaps you thought I should ask your permission first before editing anything you wrote. You said you would like to collaborate with me, yet your actions - deleting everything I wrote - do not seem to conform to that claim.


 * You claim that what I wrote in the article (a small summary of your material) "seem[s] heavily from you own POV." I do not think so, I don't think most editors would think so, and I think it's odd that you would say so; I did not contradict your assertions or edit your content. Ironically, I think most readers might well characterize your section as POV. It certainly is out of place at present, discussing political implications in Divine Principle on the Unification Church page (section 5) before the book is even discussed (section 6.1). This doesn't really belong on the Unification Church page at all; it should be discussed very briefly on the Divine Principle page, with a link to the substantial essay that you wrote.


 * Your presenting a thesis and defending it with quotations from the book is prototypical of "original research" in the humanities, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. You should be careful how you present it. -Exucmember 20:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Unification Church clarification
Hello Exucmember, I just wanted to make a clarification on my edits on the Manhattan Center page. The goal of my contributions to this page is to ensure the factual accuracy of the details on the history of the building. Also, I'm aiming to keep the history section consistent with the history on Manhattan Center's official website. The entries on the official website are neutral, factual, and they should fit well within Wikipedia's standards. The website lists that the building was purchased by the Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity (the Unification Church). It doesn't say that it was purchased by Sun Myung Moon's Unification church. This phrasing is redundant; similarly, you would not refer to the Church of Scientology as L. Ron Hubbard's Church of Scientology. If you were a Roman Catholic, you would not refer to your church as the Pope's Roman Catholic Church. The leaders (or some cases, originators) of the chuch are assumed. It's not that you wish to hide the information about the leader of the church, you only want to ensure the accuracy of the church's name when it is mentioned. For these reasons, all I ask is that the reference on Manhattan Center's Wikipedia page match the information on the website. Thanks. 69.38.167.178 17:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Roman Catholic Church is better known than the Unification Church, and its history is less dominated by one man or even by all the popes collectively. My thought was that the name "Rev. Sun Myung Moon" in conjunction with that of the Unification Church was more well-known than simply the Unification Church by itself; however, I have solved this difference of opinion.


 * Your statement: "all I ask is that the reference on Manhattan Center's Wikipedia page match the information on the [Manhattan Center's] website" is ridiculous. Suppose we were to agree on an institution that had something it prefered not to reveal because of its being controversial, say, an affiliation with the Ku Klux Klan. If its official web site neglected to say anything about this important affiliation, is that a sound reason for an appeal that it not be mentioned in an encyclopedia article? The raising of controversial issues and allowance for criticism is a hallmark of Wikipedia. -Exucmember 21:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you even bothered to visit the official website? Obviously not, because every bit of factual information about the history of the building already exists with details about ALL previous owners including the Unification Church. Your edits continue to state that Manhattan Center wishes to hide pieces of information. This couldn't be further from the truth. There's not a company in New York City who is more proud of their heritage than Manhattan Center. The historical information on the website is neutral. I understand your point about the Catholic Church, and you're correct - they are very well known. I guess the Scientology example was better, but either way, thanks for your contribution. My only other comment is to be wary of your entries. As an excommunicated member, I question the neutrality that you may be able to bring your entries. 69.38.167.178 16:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm happy to hear that you are proud of your ownership by the Unification Church and your affiliation with Sun Myuung Moon. It is not as much the affiliation but the occasional attempt to hide or obfuscate the fact by some members that bothers people. Using the long corporate name in the Wikipedia article instead of the common name that Wikipedia uses ("Unification Church" only in hidden Wikification) seemed suspicious, and you can certainly understand why I thought Manhattan Center people were trying to hide the affiliation when one of your editors deleted all reference to the Unification Church, including the long corporate name that was there originally. (Check the history and you'll see this is what happened, but perhaps it was simply a mistake made by one of the editors from Manhattan Center.)


 * Of course I read the entire history on the official website before I made any edits on the Manhattan Center page on Wikipedia. My memory is that it did NOT mention the Unification Church, only the long corporate name, "The Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity," but I see now that "Unification Church" is there in parentheses (unlike the Wikipedia page before I edited it, where it was not visible in the text), so I either misremembered or you changed it. Either way, I'm happy you're proud of your ownership, as I said. I don't understand your referring to me as an "excommunicated" member; I'll just assume it was a weak attempt at humor.


 * Unificationists are fine with the fact that I defend them against religious bigotry (on at least a half-dozen pages so far), expose the less-than-honest methods of the secular anti-cultists (dubbed Anti-Cult Movement by NRM researchers) on pages like Love bombing and Cults, or write positive things about New Hope Academy (virtually the whole article), UTS, etc., or make helpful contributions to pages like Unification Church (complimented by member Steve Dufour). On the other hand, if I reveal important but unpleasant facts that a healthy Unificationism should deal with rather than sweeping under the rug (see, for example, the review by a Unification Church member of Nansook Hong's book), I am suddenly judged to be incapable of being neutral. -Exucmember 18:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Chiming in a bit late, but I'm perfectly happy to see "important but unpleasant facts" mentioned. Just be sure to distinguish "fact" from "claim" when it's a matter of dispute. For example, it's a fact that Rev. Moon had children with at least one woman other than Hak Ja Han, his wife of years. But many "hidden facts" are actually unconfirmed rumors or 'disputed' assertions. Let's work together on these, shall we? --Uncle Ed 19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Exucmember, I was just hoping that you could clarify something for me. Here is a direct link to the section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sun_Myung_Moon#How_Many_Wives.3F I am just really trying to understand the secret things about the Unification Church and Sun Myung Moon. So if you could clarify for me, I would really appreciate it! Jamesters 09:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

New article
I hope you don't take the fact that I put your article up for deletion too personally. Notability of living people is a very difficult issue, and reasonable people frequently can and do disagree. You can comment on the AfD at Articles for deletion/Tim Folzenlogen. I've stricken the vanity bit. Cheers, Mak (talk)  06:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for correcting the number of couples in the Mike Jenkins article. I wonder why the other person changed it, kind of strange. Keep up the good work here. Steve Dufour 18:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Image:UTS aerial.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:UTS aerial.jpg, has been listed at. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. -- The JPS talk to me  08:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:Andrew_Wilson.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Andrew_Wilson.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. 05:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

UC articles
Hi, thanks again for your help. It's refreshing to able to work with a writer who has opposing viewpoints but who also wants to produce neutral articles.

Could you please take a look at a few other UC articles I've revamped today? Thanks! --Uncle Ed 19:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Heung Jin Moon
 * Nansook Hong
 * Eileen McNamara
 * Talk:List of cult and new religious movement researchers
 * Returning Resurrection
 * Soon Ae Hong
 * Talk:Bo Hi Pak
 * Bo Hi Pak


 * I finally got around to looking at these pages systematically. Some I've already addressed, but for those I haven't, a few tweaks seem in order. Nice to see Returning Resurrection - I know you wanted to put that one up for some time. I feel it's quite inadequate as it stands, however, not really conveying the basic idea of the concept to those not familiar with it already. I don't think I'm the right person to do all the writing that needs to be done about Unification beliefs though. -Exucmember 23:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Right-hand man
I think our tussle over the application of this term to Bo Hi Pak stems from lack of clarity over what a right hand man is. I have always seen Pak as more of an "aide" than a "leader".

In the army an aide is a secretary or factotum. He hangs around the commanding general and may even be an officer. A chief of staff or deputy commander is a leader. He can make decisions affecting thousands of troops.

Pak established publicity organizations like Little Angels and did some diplomatic work in Latin America (CAUSA). He did not provide spiritual leadership to members; no leaders reported to him. He was a translator, to be sure, some say the best Rev. Moon ever had. But it was Rev. Kwak who told lower-level leaders what to do; wrote an influential book on The Tradition of the church (how to conduct pledge service, when to seek or avoid an abortion, etc.)

There's no point trying to settle the "who was his right hand man" issue until I've written the Chung Hwan Kwak article. When we see the two bio article side by side (Pak and Kwak), it will be clear who was more of a key man in the church leadership hierarchy.

By the way, I really appreciate your close attention to the articles and frequent roll-backs of vandalism. Have you thought of becoming an admin? --Uncle Ed 20:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the sentiment and words of support. Well, for one thing, I'm too new - I'm like a kid who has learned enough phrases to sound like an adult without really understanding the full meaning - I just have a vague sense of Wikipedia policies, having only read what I need to know to edit. Also, I'm not sure how an editor with my username would be received, either at an evaluation to become an admin or afterward (at least in relation to those who care about the Unification Church). But I do try to be fair. Some people (not you) seem to want their way (including even suggestions or implications that are misleading) if they can (sometimes barely) justify it within the rules; I think accuracy is the best goal. -Exucmember 23:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I object to the expression "right hand man" being used at all. It is an expression that is sometimes thrown around, but it has no definate meaning.  Steve Dufour 21:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Channeling
Hi. I answered you about "approval" vs. "allowing", here. --Uncle Ed 19:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've answered there (Talk:Black Heung Jin Nim) -Exucmember 00:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

John Gorenfeld article
Hi Ex. The article on John has been proposed for deletion again. Steve Dufour 21:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is a slightly ridiculous policy in this case, but policy can change. If you are interested in where that is said, it is right below the yellow boxes on Copyright problems. Now, are you saying this version of the page is not a copyvio? The copyvio tag should only be added if all of the revisions are a copyvio (thus the 7 day wait), and if they are not, then you can remove the tag, since it would have been tagged improperly. Prodego  talk  16:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

AfDs
AfD is not a vote, but acts like one in most circumstances. For example, if editors are debating whether a page is verifiable on an AfD, and 90% of editors say yes, while 10% say no, and they both explain why they think this, it would probably be kept, assuming that was the only issue. However, if on a similar AfD 90% of editors say keep, but don't address how the article is verifiable, and the 10% voting delete explain how it doesn't, the result of the debate would be to delete. There is a prossess somewhat like an appeal, Deletion review, which is (for AfDs) used if the closing admin's decision is questioned. This would not be a new vote, and it will not challenge the results of the prior debate, just the interpretation of them. Prodego talk  20:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

RE: Your question
I think you are referring to Naming conventions (identity), which allows for Self-identification. My comments on the talk page were a personal opinion... that wasn't a reflection of policy or guidelines. Personally I think that an NPOV naming convention is best; not unduly weighing what a subject may consider themselves, but also not qualifing an article with a title that they might consider pejorative. In the case of the Wells article it would be my opinion that "biologist" would probably be a good middle ground based on his training.--Isotope23 21:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Jonathan Wells (author)
Oh, give it up. Let's call him a "biology writer". For JoshuaZ and company, only scientists are "biologists". Wells does much more writing than research. --Uncle Ed 23:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ooops! Sorry, I didn't read the diff. You already entered "biology writer". Nice work. :-) --Uncle Ed 23:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, author works too.--Isotope23 00:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to help
I put in a lot of effort on the Wells article too and got nowhere. The ironic thing is if they had listened to my suggestions the article would have been a much more effective expose' of Jonathan, rather than the almost unreadable mish-mash it is now. Steve Dufour 08:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks again for trying to help. It doesn't seem like editing the article does any good.  However, discussing on the talk page might reach a few people. Cheers. Steve Dufour 23:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Hyun Jin succession
Hyo Jin's problems and the death of Heung Jin are not disputed. What is not ready for prime time is the assumption that these alone are the reasons for Hyun Jin apparently being placed in the position of lead successor. Or even that these are the main reasons. For example, he has a Harvard MBA, a track record leading people and businesses, etc. It could come down to aptitude and qualifications, but in fact, nobody can say for sure. -- SanViejo 18:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Response on Talk:Hyun Jin Moon, the more appropriate place for the discussion. -Exucmember 17:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Talkpage reverts
Actually it is not the best idea to restore an edit that an editor has removed from their own talkpage. Other adding unsigned templates and removing fair use images... it is probably best to leave other editors' removal of comments in their userspace alone. In this specific case had some legitimate reason to term that vandalism as the individual leaving that commment had been leaving the same comment there for several days, restoring it every time it was removed, which was bordering on talkpage trolling (and the whole thing stemmed from  removing original research that IP editor was trying to add to an article.--Isotope23 talk 00:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I see. I wasn't following what was going on between Hondasaregood and the other guy at all - I just stumbled upon a statement of "vandalism" that didn't seem at all like vandalism (and a claim by that person that he had removed the material that was objected to). Also, I think you're right about restoring the content an editor has removed on his own talk page. Thanks. -Exucmember 01:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Hyun Jin Moon clarification
I must respectfully disagree with the 28 July statements regarding the reasons for Hyun Jin’s apparent succession to his father’s mission. The sources citing Nansook Hong’s book, The New York Times and Massimo Introvigne are all accurate. The first two describe events in Hyo Jin Moon’s life, and the last one states accurately that Hyun Jin was named vice president of the Family Federation and given other important responsibilities. No dispute there. However, to link these disparate sources and say that the first two citations are the reason for the third, is speculation and logical sleight-of-hand.

My second objection, regarding the subsection “Violence” in the section “Criticism,” is more nuanced but the concern is that one statement about a person, lifted from a longer piece, is used to convey the idea that Hyun Jin Moon is a singularly a violent man. Period, end of story. Dan Fefferman’s citation is not enough information to define the character of a man. You may reply that it is my responsibility to add further citations that counter that first citation, but I say that journalistic ethics and justice require that balance be part of the original story. Wikipedia is a community-edited freeforall that is arguably the most valued and frequently-cited information source around. What is occasionally missing is the application of professional standards. The violence citation in the article would be tossed by most editors, and the reporter would be told to come back with the whole story. Much obliged. Sanviejo 13:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The appropriate place for this discussion is on the relevant page, Talk:Hyun Jin Moon. -Exucmember 22:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The problems with objective truth and the unification Church
The real problem is that the denial of people in the Unification Church of the actual and real failings of Mr. Moon's children is due to the fact that he has not been able to remove the root of sin; the original sin; in fact: his children being a good indication of this right up front: obvious to everyone. That this is painful for people who want to believe that their own children will not be born with original sin is the reason someone is erasing the proofs to the contrary: they are too painful; thus they are excised. Of course this is intimidation and bullying; but the unification church has more serious problems to deal with; like the coming death of their founder. As we know; the real messiah would be immortal; he would never die. In my correspondence with Bob Selle, a public affairs assistant to the FFWPU I asked if he would answer the questions that Jonathan Gullery and others at publishing headquarters would not answer that I bring up in my book "The Revelation of Salvation: the Regeneration of John" which deal with Rev. Moon and the Providence in quite a few areas; although Jonathan Gullery did give me permission to quote anything from the book "Divine Principle" that I wanted to. Sadly I never got a reply even from Bob Selle when I sent an open letter to them: and then him: no answer yet. Now my book is going to be published and I will never be able to take back or out what is written: what's there is going to be the final word: what a shame. I will add more later; I am still reading everybody's edits and contentions: it is the fact that I point out in my book that Rev. Moon is "the faithful and wise servant/steward" mentioned by Lord Jesus: and that his fate and destiny are spelled out to exact degree: even to the beatings and marriages. More laterUnicorn144 03:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC).

hi
Hi ExUC. Hope you had a nice Christmas and New Years. I left some comments on Talk:Kook Jin Moon. Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 20:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi again. This article has serious problems. I don't feel that I should work on it myself but something needs to be done. Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 00:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed some of the problem material. I hope that the article now fairly gives the information about him. There was stuff that was a real problem with WP policies, as well as basic fairness. It was not just the lack of positive material. Steve Dufour (talk) 21:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if I went overboard on this one. You are doing some great work here. However, I think the concept which you seem to have about the True Family, although a legitimate opinion, is kind of a fringe theory. There are only a few thousand UC members (or exmembers) in the English speaking world who could relate to it. But what could the millions of other WP readers make of your theory (here is how I understand it: "The True Children have failed to become the leaders they should have been and this is the cause of the failure of the UC")? I'm sorry we disagree on this topic but I really do appreciate many of your other contributions. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Steve, that is not a "fringe" view. It is held by a large enough minority to be mentioned in articles. What we need to do is determine what proportion of members or ex-members hold the view. If we can't even figure out whether it's the prevailing view, or 50-50, or 5%, then we'll just have to say something like this:
 * One view commonly expressed by English-speaking ...
 * That leaves "open" the question of how many espouse the view. Remember, we must remain scrupulously neutral, if we are to continue this fruitful collaboration. --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I was unclear. What I meant is that any opinion about Rev. Moon's family is going to be a fringe theory to the vast majority of WP readers, both that they are the True Children or that they are the cause of problems within the church. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Steve, I'm impressed that you have the ability to discover an unstated theory of mine that even I didn't know I held. Here's what I really think - My basic approach on Wikipedia is that I report on what I know about. Almost any position critical of almost any aspect of Unificationism may seem like a minority view to current members, who much more closely follow the Korean model of critique and free speech than they do the American model. Unlike the True Children, Rev. Moon has been widely criticized in the media for decades, and frankly I think the fact that much of that media criticism has been exaggerated and has an emotional quality of sarcasm and disdain has made it more difficult for members to have honest self-examination of real problems within the church. It leads to being overly defensive, and sometimes sees an attack where none was intended (such as the innocuous phrase "right-hand man" to describe Bo Hi Pak, which I think is completely neutral and quite accurate). When I was creating an overdue article about Kook Jin Moon, I never once thought anything like he "failed to become the leader [he] should have been." I was simply conveying the facts as I knew them as well as some of the controversy (not all of which I agree with - some believe designing a smaller, more lethal weapon will increase deaths; I don't know whether I believe that, but if a lot of people feel that and draw certain conclusions, this becomes potential content). The case of Hyo Jin Moon is different, and I think most honest members believe he did not act like an exemplary leader during the period Nan Sook Hong reported about in her book, which long-time leader Dan Fefferman said had "a ring of truth about it" (though again, counterproductively - though understandable in this case - there was the occasional phrase reflecting sarcasm or disdain). -Exucmember (talk) 19:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't think that Hyo Jin should have an article at all. He is only notable as Rev Moon's son. I also didn't think "right-hand man" was an attack. It was just original research. Besides that it is an undignified slang expression. I don't think a Catholic would like to see Saint Peter introduced as Jesus' "right-hand man". Steve Dufour (talk) 15:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Steve, why are there any articles about Unification teachings? Unification theology makes zero impact in the larger world of theology. It is because the teaching are important to the Unification Church. A second reason is that they have been written about publicly. Hyo Jin Moon qualifies on both counts, as a member of the True Family and as someone who has been talked about in the press and in books a number of times. Why are there any articles related to the church besides Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church?


 * "Right-hand man" is not original research. Bo Hi Pak was referred to as Rev. Moon's "right-hand man" probably 100 times in media articles in the 70s and 80s. Are you not aware of that? I never thought of the expression as "undignified." But I'm happy to see that both you and Ed are giving attention to the nuances of language, something that has largely been absent in the Unification Church throughout its life in the West. I'm not sure your Catholic analogy holds up - Catholic views of Jesus and Peter have been in the background of Western culture for thousands of years, and it may not be fair to compare to the sensitivities Americans may have to what might make pious Catholics bristle. If Jesus and Peter were alive today, they wouldn't be written about on Wikipedia with such sensitivities. -Exucmember (talk) 21:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * At least the UC doesn't have as many WP articles as Scientology. When I last checked there was one for every 300 members. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this because the Unification Church is losing its potency? - It seems to have fallen behind Scientology in controversy. [This weak attempt at a joke was conceived before - but written after - Ed's comments below.] -Exucmember (talk) 06:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I wish that the Church of Scientology would hire a Moonie as its PR director. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 23:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for hosting this discussion, ExUC. While I don't always agree with you, I am impressed with your unfailing courtesy and patience.

Steve, are you suggesting that we collect all the information about the True Children into one article? Or even stuff them into a section of Sun Myung Moon? --Uncle Ed (talk) 22:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I heard that there were:
 * -More social scientists writing about Satanism than there were Satanists
 * -More Western people studying Tibetan Buddhism in one particular place than native practitioners
 * -More anthropologists researching a certain tribe in New Guinea than there were members of that tribe
 * Don't know if any of these things are true. The point is that sometimes a topic is notable if people pay attention to it and/or there is controversy. So most of the articles about Unification topics belong on Wikipedia, keeping in mind that if critics want to focus attention on a particular Unification behavior, it would be fair and balanced to have material that puts that in context, including Unification beliefs, practices, and key people & roles.


 * It seems Steve doesn't fully appreciate or agree with that. -Exucmember (talk) 06:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I personally feel that we UC members should honor the True Children because they the are children of the True Parents. However WP is writen for people in general, not for UC members.  There are only about 10,000 members in the USA and about another 10,000 in other "Western" countries. So anything we think is going to be a fringe theory to the general public.  There shouldn't be articles on the True Children unless they have done something notable in their own right.  They could be listed or mentioned in their parents' articles however.  I'm sorry that I edited an article after I said that I wouldn't, however it had and continues to have serious BLP problems and no one was doing anything about it after I posted a notice on the BLP board. So my duty as a WPer conflicted with my promise there.  I'm trying to stay away from the articles about the True Children. One thing is that I don't get upset when Father himself is attacked, he after all is a public person and chose to take on the position he has. His children, on the other hand, didn't choose the family into which they were born. I get rather upset to see attacks against innocent people, even if they are not as perfect (or don't seem as perfect) as some people think they should be. Wishing everyone well as always. Steve Dufour (talk) 23:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I understand the desire to delete the criticism of the True Children and the difficulty for someone with your piety to restrain yourself from going overboard, thus deleting too much from the Kook Jin Moon article. I went back over it and tried to do what you might have done, to delete the most questionable items and negative opinions. I may comb through it again and see what else should be deleted or demoted to footnotes. But deleting way too much invited me to revert rather than respect your attempt at being fair, which was lacking in that case (though generally I'd say it is quite good). You might say what you think are the clearest BLP problems that remain.
 * You have not addressed the points I made above:
 * Steve, why are there any articles about Unification teachings? Unification theology makes zero impact in the larger world of theology. It is because the teaching are important to the Unification Church. A second reason is that they have been written about publicly. Hyo Jin Moon qualifies on both counts, as a member of the True Family and as someone who has been talked about in the press and in books a number of times.
 * Hyo Jin Moon and Kook Jin Moon did not choose to be born into the True Family, but Hyo Jin did accept the top leadership position of the student branch (CARP), and chose to act in such an abusive manner toward his wife that it made interesting reading for people outside the church. He also chose to get high before giving the Sunday sermon in Tarrytown, and 60 Minutes felt these things were newsworthy. (Their report is on YouTube.) Kook Jin is notable for Kahr Arms, but also because of his position in Unification teachings, and also because of the public controversy - you may not agree, but he is criticized for enabling lethal violence. Heung Jin Moon is very important in Unification teachings (greater than Jesus - don't deny it), and even the Black Heung Jin Nim was an important chapter in the story of Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church. Nan Sook Hong was regarded at one time by all the members I knew as the probable next-generation True Mother, but also later revealed many of the secrets of the True Family (after living with them for 15 years) that the media found newsworthy.
 * The True Children have such an elevated position in both Unification teachings and in practice in the Unification Church; this alone makes them notable. And they're all adults now. They can handle a few public criticisms now that they've decided to align themselves with Unificationist organizations. Hiding criticisms is an east Asian cultural artifact that has done the movement in the West a disservice.
 * But I understand your concerns. I used to have them myself. And I still have a sense of fairness. I'll try to weed out anything with gratuitous criticism, like the "shared the passion of the street" innuendo. -Exucmember (talk) 04:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There are two hearsay opinions in Kook Jin's article. Even if quoted in a "reliable source" they are still hearsay opinions, they should not be in an article on a living person by WP policy. To answer your other question... There should not be articles on UC teachings on WP. Not because UC teachings are not important, but because there is no interest in understanding UC teachings in "reliable sources." There should be links to UC sites in the main articles on the UC so that people who are interested can do research. Of course there should also be links to anti-UC sites for fairness. I also object that the article on Kook Jin is not about a notable gun designer but instead is about: THE SON OF REV MOON IS A GUN DESIGNER!!! That might be an important topic but it is certainly not encyclopedic. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Can we move this discussion somewhere more public?


 * I think we can sum up a lot of criticism of "True Family" as (1) the church says [fill in blank], but (2) when we look at the True Family we see glaring contradictions. It doesn't matter how you fill in the blank, the argument is always the same: Rev. Moon can't be the Messiah, because his teaching is contradicted by (this and that behavior).


 * So the chief interest of church opponents in any of the "True Children" is how untrue their behavior seems - which provides fodder for an attack on Rev. Moon.


 * That's okay as far as it goes, but I think it should be balanced with the church's statements of defense (and any supportive statements from outside the church). Chief among these would be (1) denials of certain charges: e.g., the church denies the pikareun charge of Madeleine Pretorious (not currently a notable person, cited in the Nan Sook Hong book. Also important would be the church explanation of things like (2) Rev. & Mrs. Moon neglecting their children while doing church work (i.e., it was a providential "condition" needed to save the world. --Uncle Ed (talk) 20:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

A place for everything
As my grandma used to say, "A place for everything, and everything in its place." That's why I'm glad you trimmed my recent addition to Sun Myung Moon. I agree that we should avoid bloat, and I could use some help with articles related to Rev. Moon, such as Unification Theology. Do you know anything about the Ambassadors for Peace? --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Two paragraphs
Hi, ExUC. Can a pick a bone with you in a friendly way? You are usually very careful and fair in all your contributions, so I was wondering if the following was an oversight.

I refer to this change to Bo Hi Pak, which looks like the restoration of a previous version.

The following two paragraphs were lost:


 * Pak tried to establish an endowment for the various organizations he created. When his attempts foundered, he borrowed heavily. Unable to repay his debts, he was charged with financial fraud. He served 2 years and 3 ½ months of a five year sentence and released on probation.


 * Pak's daughter in law, In Jin Moon (the second daughter of Sun Myung Moon), says that Pak was the victim of "certain church members who introduced him to the fraudulent deal" and "made a terrible mistake in following bad investment advice from people with criminal motives". She castigated those who let her father be derided as "an insecure man destroying the very visible disciple who helped him"; and she called upon church members to help get her father-in-law out of jail by contributing funds or buying a music CD created as fundraiser.

I'm hoping you won't mind if the bullet points above are merged into what you wrote. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, I'm extremely reluctant to "mess" with your version, because you're so good at phrasing UC-related material in general. For example this "Moonie" edit was brilliant. I couldn't have done better myself. --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Ed, thanks for being - not only civil - but complementary. You're right, I wasn't my normal careful, fair-minded self for that Bo Hi Pak edit. I saw that you had blanked a section of sourced material I added and replaced it with a very abbreviated version with no more explanation than that your version was "better." But since you were so gentlemanly in raising the issue, I will take a look at it and try my best to integrate what you wrote back into the article. -Exucmember (talk) 00:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Ed, I just made the edit, and it seems you were the one who was not careful. I combed through each phrase in the two paragraphs above, comparing it to what was already in the article, and was only able to add ONE phrase that was not already there! I didn't add "CDs", and I didn't want to delete InJin's word in the verbatim quote ("belittle") and substitute it with your characterization ("derided"). -Exucmember (talk) 02:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I guess it goes to show that it's not easy for someone who cares a lot about a subject to write about it neutrally. I'm glad to work with you, because you are usually even more careful than I am! :-) --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Have a barnstar!!!
_Steve Dufour (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Two big ideas
Hi, Ex. How's it been going?

I have two big ideas to share with you:
 * 1) I'd like to rework and probably rename the Black Heung Jin Nim article. Much of it can go into bio of Cleopas Kundioni, the Zimbabwean man who reportedly embodied the deceased Heung Jin Moon in the mid 1980s.
 * 2) I'd like to start an article - probably to become a section - about the lenience of Sun Myung Moon or the "tolerance" or something that describes his laid back attitude toward people who don't quite do what he asks - or even defy him outright.

A year and a half ago, you wrote this comment:


 * Ed, you said Sun Myung Moon "let it happen." That's essentially the same as saying it was authorized. Are you implying SMM thought Cleophas was a fake and let it happen anyway? I'm sure there were some skeptics all along, and in growing numbers as Cleophas's behavior became more and more strange. But you seem to be arguing that he had to have been a fake from the beginning for theological reasons. Sorry, but that was simply not the position of the Unification Church. The official position represented at the meetings with him was that he was channeling Heung Jin Nim. This was clearly the view expressed by the majority of members at the time also. You might want to ask yourself whether your personal theology on this matter is heretical. Members debated (almost entirely afterward) at what point Heung Jin Nim's spirit left Cleophas. But it is simply not accurate to imply that the official position of the church, or the majority view among the members, was anything other than accepting that the words Cleophas was speaking were coming from the spirit of Heung Jin Nim. And it is simply not credible to imply that Sun Myung Moon did not authorize the tour. -Exucmember 05:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

My response takes the form of two distinct, but related, ideas. First, "letting it happen" is not the same thing as condoning it. For example, way back in 1976 Rev. Moon knew that some fundraising captains were employing so-called "heavenly deception". In an interview with Frederick Sontag, Rev. Moon gave these leaders a mild - but unmistakable - rebuke:

"A member must say that he is a member of the Unification Church and that he is the follower of Sun Myung Moon. If he doesn't have the courage to say it, he is not worthy of me. I tell them it's wrong not to speak out for fear of bringing greater persecution to themselves, because that greater persecution will bring equally greater blessing. If they try to shy away from persecution, actually they are missing the whole blessing. Some local leaders may have tried to be expedient, but they didn't have any bad motivation. I can understand why such things may have happened in the face of persecution, but I do not condone such action."

Another time he chided Larry Moffitt for not having learned Korean. I do not find that Moffitt reported any further mention of the subject - certainly nothing like being pressured to attend Korean language classes or being fired from his church-related media job.

There is often a tension between what "the Messiah" tells his followers to do, and what they are willing and able to do. Tolerance, forbearance, magnanimity, and just letting people grow at their own pace seems to be what Rev. Moon is about. This contradicts critics' claims that at some future point a crackdown is coming when (despite all the previous nicey-nicey stuff) violators will be in for (unspecified!) harsh treatment. I ask you, is it likely that a man would put leaders in charge during his lifetime who were pushovers and nice guys, but then expect them to become rigid dictators upon his death?

Anyway, I thought I'd bring it up here on your user talk, rather than on any specific article talk page, because it's a crosscutting issue. It affects one's entire perception of Rev. Moon as a man (of God). --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've responded to the first idea on the Black Heung Jin Nim article Talk page. On the second idea, I think it's a good one, if you think it's sufficiently notable. I think Tolerance of Sun Myung Moon is better than "lenience," because "tolerance" is the more normal word for what you're talking about here, and "lenience" seems misleading - his leadership style is authoritarian, and he talks about "absolutes" and the like, and he doesn't seem to be very lenient when it comes to things he considers central, like rules and regulations concerning sexual behavior (except perhaps for his own family...). -Exucmember (talk) 11:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Revisionism
I appreciate your warning about becoming revisionist - that is something I do not want to do. I thus quote (to myself) the following:


 * Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy contemplates including only significant published viewpoints regarding a subject. It does not extend to novel viewpoints developed by Wikipedia editors which have not been independently published in other venues.

Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow. As True Father said, "Honesty comes first." --Uncle Ed (talk) 13:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Rev Moon and "Heavenly deception"..
Hi Ex,

My understanding is that the "heavenly deception" quote was an insider paraphrase of Moon's "even G-d lies sometimes" explanation, and that it's attribution is solidly connected to previous church members...I didn't make the edit, but have I got this wrong? WNDL42 (talk) 01:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I was a well-connected, full-time member for two decades, including during the period when the "heavenly deception" accusation was strongest. I never heard it advocated in the church. Only one time (I think it was 1975) did I hear a rank-and-file member (not a leader) advocate something similar, and everyone else disagreed. I've never heard even a rumor that "'heavenly deception' was an insider paraphrase of Moon's [statement]," and I've never heard that Moon said "even God lies sometimes" (although that might be possible). It is pretty easy to check these things because devoted members have been busy putting nearly every talk Moon has ever given online. It was amazingly easy for me to find Moon's rejection of the "heavenly deception" accusation with a Google search. On the other hand: Google: "even God lies sometimes" "Sun Myung Moon" yields no results. (Unificationists don't use "G-d," as Unification theology emphasizes immanence over transcendence). I did find something with a similar phrasing to "even God lies sometimes", but there were three different versions of the same supposed quotation, and no original source quotation (not encyclopedic).


 * It might be a good idea, however, to find a (reliable) quotation by Rev. Moon that reveals the fact that honesty is not his number one most important value, as it is for many Americans. That line of argument has some merit, and has indeed led to conflict with American society in a number of ways. An observer might expect that his rhetoric about building a unified world culture would assimilate this vital virtue so central to Western sensibilities, but it's remarkable how resilient small, third-world thinking is within the top leadership of the Unification movement.


 * Nevertheless, the assertion that the Unification Church teaches a doctrine of "heavenly deception" is patently false. The insider paraphrase, even if true, is not sufficient reason to make (or even mention in an encyclopedia, imo) the false claim that the Unification Church teaches a doctrine of "heavenly deception". The church already has a persecution complex (which you can even see revealed in subtle ways by the overreaction of Unificationist Wikipedia editors to certain relatively innocuous statements that remind them of spurious critiques of the church). To me it's just not helpful to dredge up the flimsiest criticisms when so many others have a strong case behind them. -Exucmember (talk) 21:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Ex...my response is at the article's talk page] WNDL42 (talk) 21:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think you're going to find that honesty is not Rev. Moon's number one virtue, even if some Asians want to place loyalty higher. He told Professor Fred Sontag in 1976: "Honesty comes first, particularly between man and God." That is one of the few Moon quotes I've learned by heart. I memorized it because I was tired of low-level leaders telling me I should use deception when fundraising.
 * "I emphasize honesty, purity, and unselfishness as the principal code of our members. Honesty comes first, particularly between God and man. Our Principle teaches that man's dishonesty brought about the separation between God and man. Even though our members may think they will invite more hostile persecution, I emphasize that they must present themselves as the ambassadors of God and tell people who they are first."
 * That is a classic interview, and I defy anyone to show that Moon ever repudiated a sentiment revealed in it later on. --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:19, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

GolfStyles
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article GolfStyles, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you agree with the deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add  to the top of GolfStyles. Gwernol 03:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see the discussion at Talk:GolfStyles. Better sources are needed to establish notability. Thanks, Gwernol 11:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Love bombing
Hi Ex. In general I have not worked on the "anti-cult" articles. It mostly seems to be a waste of time for me. I'm going to leave this one alone too. Thanks again for all your work. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Can the Unification Church reform?
Here's a 2006 comment from my User page asking whether there's any hope that the Unification Church can solve some of its biggest internal problems. A small sample of such problems are named.


 * Recently I have also added some items to certain pages related to Unificationism that I believe may help the Unification community to improve, although I do not hold out much hope. These include bringing out into the daylight some of the more difficult issues such as those raised in Nansook Hong's book In the Shadow of the Moons, which Dan Fefferman described as "having a ring of truth." I am also concerned about the violence, that seems to have been accepted at the time, not only from Hyo Jin Moon, but also from the official channel for Heung Jin Moon, and from Hyun Jin Moon as exemplified by his assaults of the Contemporary Realism painter Tim Folzenlogen when he was a member. If Unificationism is to survive, these issues must be faced by members and dealt with somehow, not swept under the rug. I realize that it might be better for a current member to take this bold action; I stand to be accused of being "negative." Any brave reformers still in the church who want to take up the challenge of solving internal problems as a foundation for saving the world? (written July 25, 2006)


 * Well, I once told Rev. Moon that "I love you but I can't understand your broken English". Does that count? --Uncle Ed (talk) 01:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

use of footnotes
Please read up the proper use of it in the discussion page of Yonsei University. Thanks. --BirdKr (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Ex members?
FYI, I have heard through "back channels" (off Wikipedia) something that I have only suspected for a long time now, that is that certain editors who claim to be "ex-members" of the Unification Church are in fact very active members and are editing on wikipedia explicitly for the purpose of acting as "straw puppets". It's a well known tactic and I'd be shocked if the Unification Church was not using it. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MEAT#Straw_puppets

The "game" is that there are supposedly unification church members who have "left the church" and therefore falsely give the appearance of legitimacy when they defend the church of the most serious charges. Meanwhile they also make or support mild criticisms of the church here and there to "look" as though they are "critical" of the church.

Meanwhile, I have noted that this notion of an "ex member" of the church leaving and then devoting their time on line to "reforming" the church appears to be a phenomenon that does not exist outside of the world of wikipedia.

Do you have any links to off-wiki reliable sources that demonstrate the existance of other ex-members who think like you do?

I am very curious. [improperly signed by Wndl42 (talk) 13:11, 25 March 2008 (UTC)]


 * You're a real trip. First you keep reverting multiple edits because of a single phrase you don't like, claiming that the phrase "new religious movement" is what the Unification Church calls itself (as contrasted with what others call it), apparently completely ignorant of the sociology of religion literature. The phrase is removed from the article and no one objects; I refrain from pointing out your gross ignorance and obstinacy.


 * Then you come back after 3 weeks of absence like the very definition of a bull in a china shop and revert about 50 edits, screaming about bias and giving an example of edits which were not even among the 50 edits, but were made months earlier and already reverted. You loudly proclaim you will seek intervention, apparently not noticing that not a single one of these 50 edits was made by a Unification Church supporter, but were a combination of fixes, referencing, and criticism.


 * Did you even look at my edit history in various Unification Church category articles before launching into your ludicrous diatribe above? Of course you didn't, or you would have seen that I am far and away the most prolific and most effective critic of Moon and the Unification Church on Wikipedia, that my criticisms are informed, well-referenced, and that they pierce right to the heart of Unificationist claims as contrasted with the feckless cacophony of uninformed (sometimes bigoted) outsiders and what one moderate (the majority) ex-member cleverly called his extremist (the minority) colleagues: "reverse-polarity kamikaze zealots." These tend to undermine valid criticisms.


 * Some of the most damning critiques that exist anywhere of Sun Myung Moon and the "True Family" are made by ex-member Nansook Hong, who lived with the Moon family for 14 years, an eyewitness to many revealing events and facts that remained hidden from the vast majority of church members. These are effective in part because they are not wild exaggerations, but rather have what long-time American church leader Dan Fefferman called a ring of truth about them. At least 95% of the referenced material on Wikipedia from Nansook Hong was put in a wide array of Unification Church category articles by me.


 * You pointed out once that a cabal of self-appointed guardians of orthodoxy have imbued certain articles with such obvious bias that they are a joke and an embarrassment to Wikipedia, yet you seem to be adopting the very same attitude. You are even getting complaints that this is precisely what you're doing. Should I conclude from this that you are trying to make criticisms of Moon and the Unification Church look bad, or that you are a Moon follower trying to sabotage these criticisms on Wikipedia? Get a grip. -Exucmember (talk) 15:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Josette Sheeran
Hi. My reason for adding the link to Damian Anderson's essay to the article was so people would have a chance to see his tolerant attitude, which is typical of most American members, towards someone who left the church. I wasn't trying to promote any conspiracy theories. BTW Damian (like Josette) is also divorced. Steve Dufour (talk) 21:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

New article
Thanks for your help with User:Steve Dufour/The Unification Church of the United States. I am just about ready to post it the WP mainspace. Please feel free to add any information you like before or after I do. Steve Dufour (talk) 20:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your contribution. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The article, now Unification Church of the United States, is now being questioned by people who don't believe that there are only 5,000 members. I made a comment on User talk:Gatoclass. Steve Dufour (talk) 20:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

ICUS article
Could you check out International Conference on the Unity of the Sciences? The notability of the conferences is being questioned. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Intelligent design RfC
At this RfAR, you've expressed an interest in a RfC on behaviour of editors at articles related to intelligent design. As an outcome, User:Gnixon/Intelligent design RfC provides a Workspace, with discussion at User talk:Gnixon/Intelligent design RfC which I've started off with ideas for a basis to formulate the RfC. which I've started off with ideas for a basis to formulate the RfC. We also must try to resolve the dispute and as a first step my suggestion is developing guidelines or procedures aimed improving behaviour from now on, so that the desired outcomes can be achieved amicably. Your assistance and comments will be much appreciated. . . dave souza, talk 14:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Unification Church articles
I've just nominated several Unification Church related articles for deletion: Michael Jenkins (Unification Church), Andrew Wilson (theologian)‎, Robert Parry, Tyler Hendricks‎, and True Children.Northwestgnome (talk) 15:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

AfD
Hi Exuc. I've just nominated Belvedere Estate (New York) for deletion. Steve Dufour (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

email from Jclemens
I haven't received any repsonses to my email to you. Have you received them OK? Jclemens (talk) 04:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, sorry about that. I'll reply soon. -Exucmember (talk) 04:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Frank Kaufmann: Guilty until proven innocent
The efforts to kill the Frank Kaufmann article deconstructs each reference on the assumption that the biography is falsified, and reasons on technicalities that the reference cannot "prove" the simple facts of the biography.

As noted by one editor (or more) religious and interreligious work is not cited or written on as abundantly as political, economic, and scientific work, and also that it often occurs "quietly in the background."

Most probably the information available on this page of photos cannot be used or cited to strengthen the Kaufmann biography, but it should be helpful for any impartial editors to personally assess if the biography is notable, and if the claims are contrived as one editor repeatedly suggests. The mockery and critique of the subject of the article is contradicted by the record.

I introduce this page (the captioning is not yet complete) to you because I do not know Wikipedia standards and do not know if the information there can be of any use to rescue the article.

Thank you for your help and guidance on this matter. Mybesteffort (talk) 23:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I know it appears as you describe, but that's not quite it. Wikipedia editors act within a certain mind-set based on Wikipedia rules. One of these that may seem a little odd at first, in that it doesn't seem to care what's really true, is verifiability. Here's the first sentence from that policy page: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." So many things that really are true get excluded. But if you think about it, this is the only way a system like Wikipedia could work. So you cite something specific from a reliable source instead of making a sweeping statement. If editors are cooperative (as they're supposed to be) and put the quality of the article above the letter of the law (as they're supposed to - see the oddly named policy "WP:Ignore all rules"), the article will usually come out pretty well.


 * On the other hand, sometimes an editor repeatedly violates Wikipedia policies and guidelines, as you saw - failure to assume good faith, failure in civility (first item mentioned is "rudeness"), no personal attacks, and please do not bite the newcomers. You were the victim of a particularly objectionable violation involving a combination of these last two. Such behavior can damage an article, but it's best to stay calm and continue trying to improve the article, as you did quite admirably.


 * So specifics cited in reliable sources are the key. Btw, do you know what award(s) Dialogue and Alliance has won? -Exucmember (talk) 03:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

email
Hello. Thanks Mybesteffort (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Is there a way to be notified by email when changes are made on the pages that I've added to my watch list?
 * 2) Can other users know my email address if I "enable email from other users?"


 * See my reply on your talk page.-Exucmember (talk) 00:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Help please
Would you be so kind as to check these diffs, and see what Mr. Hrafn is doing the Kaufmann article?

Is it permitted for an editor to incessantly assail an article and constantly recommend it for deletion, even after the article already went through a deletion vote?

Also, Mr. Hrafn keeps altering the banner, first was to dispute factual accuracy (which I don't even know how that was a legitimate claim - I couldn't see any point at which factual accuracy could be questioned), and now after an absurd and convoluted assault on the Guru Nanak Interfaith Award, seeks to twist this back to re-question notability!

The very first vote, even when the article was in far worse shape, and far worse referenced was from an editor named Dezidor (I think), who immediately said the notability looks fine.

In short my question is, can an editor incessantly put the same article up for deletion? This is very bothersome and time consuming?

Aren't there rules to stop an editor from persisting with a personal vendetta (instead of of devoting his or her obvious skills and research abilities to helping improve Wikipedia)?

If there are not rules, then it would be possible for someone to do nothing but splash negative banners over a single article that bothers him or her for whatever reason, and constantly introduce repeatedly the same article for deletion.

Thanks very much for your help here. Mybesteffort (talk) 19:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC) Thank you for your help. Mybesteffort (talk) 19:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

AfD's
I've just nominated American Freedom Coalition and World Association of Non-Governmental Organizations for deletion. Steve Dufour (talk) 23:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

UC ethics and so forth

 * that scandal led many members to reassess the role of violence within the church, the meaning of obedience to leaders, the role of authority, faith and freedom (or coercion), and other issues

If you can document this, it would be a great contribution. I have lots of information on these topics; but I need a collaborator: I'm not much of a private author, and I can't just develop something in my own user space. Please work with me on these topics.

For example, when and where have church leaders appeared to endorse violence against members who rebel against church authority? And how does this compare with other church groups, mainstream or "NRM's" (aka cults)?. Is there any evidence that UC is similar to doomsday cults like the Waco wackos or suicide groups like the Jonestown crew? (If we can't be sure about this, we can write fairly about the controversy between those who say there is, and is not, a similarity.)

What has Rev. Moon said about authority in the church? Is it absolute, not to be questioned? Do church leaders have the authority to insist that members ignore their own conscience when there is a dispute?

Does anecdotal evidence from current and ex-members of outrageous violations of "normal American Christian ethics" prove that Rev. Moon has authorized this sort of thing? Or could it be that the leaders and sub-leaders in his own movement have misunderstood or disregarded their Founder's teachings?

(I got lots more questions like these; I'm just gettin' started, pardnuh! :-) --Uncle Ed (talk) 01:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

non-breaking spaces and dashes
Hello Exucmember! Please see Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style. Thanks! Kaldari (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was in the processes of editing the talk page there when your message came in. -Exucmember (talk) 16:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

David Eaton (composer)
Thanks for working on this one. I couldn't do anything since he and the symphony don't publicize their membership in the UC. I agree that the article should be trimmed down. I'd also like to see them added to UC lists, etc. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Ask and you shall receive... eventually.
Cheers! Jclemens (talk) 20:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Guru Nanak Interfaith Prize

Eaton article
Hi Exuc

Hope you've been well.

I know David Eaton and tried to help him the other day when he came to ask me about developments with his article. My very first piece of advice to him is that you should be considered a friend not an enemy, etc. You are knowledgeable, fair and helpful.

I encouraged him to work with you to create a good article. At his request I write you to express a view, get your opinion, and see how you are thinking about this article.

Through the history I see that David tried to purge his UC ties, which seems, if I am reading correctly to have evoked from you editing to make those ties even more blaring and glaring.

Now in the middle of an article on an American composer is a big separate section entitled Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church.

I would like to recommend that this is out of keeping with a legitimate approach to artists. I could not find any music article in my random sampling of composers and musicians in the encyclopedia in which their religion was emphasized (even for composers who were overtly and self professed religious believers).

My view is that David's bio be treated with the same standards as other artists, and that private religious beliefs not be overly, or unduly emphasized. In short he should be treated no better and no worse than any other artist in Wikipedia.

What I think is more appropriate would be to have it clear throughout his article those elements of his musical career in which his Unification ties explicitly contribute to the reason for his involvement with this project or that.

Asking your understanding, I will try to make the changes according to this recommendation. But I want to do it in deference to your greater grasp of the Wikipedia vision and standards.

Thanks for your understanding Mybesteffort (talk) 16:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Global Peace Festival (USA)
Please see the talk page. I am actually an admin. Pedro : Chat  22:58, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Sun Myung Moon, theocrat?
Hi exucmember. I opened up a discussion of this on the article's talk page. Redddogg (talk) 17:09, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Former Unificationists
Hi Exuc. I agree with you that this category should be deleted. Especially since it seems to be applied selectively. It is also hard nowdays to tell if someone is a former member or still a member, even by their friends. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and put it up for discussion: Categories for discussion/Log/2009 January 6 Steve Dufour (talk) 13:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Young Jin Moon
An article that you have been involved in editing, Young Jin Moon, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Young Jin Moon. Thank you. Redddogg (talk) 16:08, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Rename
Hi Exucmember. I've proposed renaming True Family to the more neutral Family of Sun Myung Moon. Please join in the discussion on the article's talk page. Thanks. Redddogg (talk) 18:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The actual identity of Sun Myung Moon
Since I read the Divine Principle and was instructed in it when I was given the Black Book and then taught the Principle step by step by Brad Bukfin ( who went in and out 3 times at least as of the Unification Church circa 1975-78; 1980-84 ) I have had an ongoing interest in the person the world has mischaracterized in so many ways: as in my book "The Revelation of Salvation: the Regeneration of John the Divine" I positively show that the Rev. Sun Myung Moon is the personage written of in the Gospel as "the Faithful and Wise Steward/servant" seen in Luke and Matthew.

Ordinarily this would be no large thing; people write books every day. But as I began to write after I came to Christ Jesus in my awakening from the dust of the earth some rather extraordinary thngs began to happen to me: and finally after I took the Vow of celibacy that accompanies the sealing of one's seed inside one body untill "death do us part" that charcterizes the Virgins of the Lamb I found myself in the Ranks of those Children of the Resurrection "who do not marry nor are they given in marriage".

It is they who are the Clouds; andd since I actually was given the status of those who are "equal unto the angels" I would like to communicate with you as being solid and objective; at least in your words.

As I am writing my final edit of this book of mine for Monkfish Publications and their longsuffering editor Paul Cohen I have tried to get Jonathan Gullery and Eric Holt to give me some current quotes for my book: but to no avail. I was given Phillip Schenkar's email and wrote to him: no answer.

So it seems I will have to just give up on them: they are but "dumb dos"; they cannot "bark" or warn Sun Myung Moon what fate he faces: so I am basically helpless in communicating the actual Truth of who he is to anyone in the ex-church: they don't want to hear it.

What a tragedy!! I hope that you might want to find out what was revealed to me by "the angel of John"; just as he was instructed by the "angel of Christ" on Patmos. Most would just smile and turn away; but [erhaps you know better: for you must know that Sun Myung Moon is no ordibary man; but he is not infallible either; as the stories of King Saul and then Shebna tell us: those in positions of great responsibility can and do make mistakes: and they who do not heed the instructions which come to correct these things come to very sticky ends indeed.

Sun Myung Moon going to Jane Roberts for instance is so like King Saul going to the Witch of Endor is too close of an analogy to even discuss; and then there are his errors in ascribing the status of a female spirit to the Holy Spirit; which is how Sodom invaded Rev. Moon and thus the Church: for in my being given the Seal of the Living God I discovered the identity of the Holy Spirit: and it is Male; thus "marrying" Jesus as the Son of God to the "male" Holy Spirit produced "Sodom"; as the 2 dead bodies in the street conceptually in the Divine Principle: as Two men were thus "married" by our "priest". Thus "Egypt "invaded: as Isis is the "female spirit" Rev. Moon believes is the "Holy Spirit"; the queen of Egypt being "Mystery" herself; the Veil that covers the "Mystery of God"; just as the true mystery is hidden by the "false one".

In showing that Sun Myung Moon is John the Baptist just as Lord Jesus revealed that John the Baptist was Elijah the Prophet puts me in the position of the Messiah technically; but in reality I am but the least in the kingdom of heaven; but it is my servant John who is the Greatest in the Kingdom of heaven; Last of all; and servant of all; and thus everyone is between us; just as when Jonah preached at Ninevah and they all repented; from "the greatest unto the least".

my email is " st.christopherthelast@yahoo.com; please contact me as perhaps you can give me some insight for my book to go without direct quoted from the Founder: I am at an impasse here. You can see my writing at " http://www.newunificationchurch.com "; the section of the Seal of the Living God might interest you.

Peace and Love from the God of Love and Peace christopher witt diamant Unicorn144 (talk) 15:27, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination
Hi Exucmember. Please see: Articles for deletion/List of Unificationists. Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for sending welcome message
Hi, thank you for sending welcome message.

The first aim of my editing is to compare Enlgish and Korean wikipedia homepage of Rev. Moon and fill out missing parts of each homepage. I think English page has fluent infomation on his activities after 1970s usually done in USA, while Korean page has fluent infomration on his early days. After that, I also want to compare Japanese page, which has the most information about Rev. Moon as I know, and I think it also can be helpful.(even if I can guess the content of Japanese page with only Chinese character)

Because translation is not easy, It'll be grateful to you if you help for the English expression. Thank you.Godneck (talk) 01:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Possible deletion?
Hi Exucmember. I'm considering nominating Hak Ja Han for deletion. Would you like to discuss the issue on the article's talk page? Redddogg (talk) 15:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Hak Ja Han Redddogg (talk) 17:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

New article
Hi Exuc. Well now I remember why I have been trying to avoid getting involved in articles on the True Family. Anyway I am planning to start an article on the Unification Church and anti-communism. I think that would work better than "Unification Church opposition to communism." Steve Dufour (talk) 02:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * How about an article on CAUSA, a Unificationist organization with a "VOC" focus? Or an article simply titled Victory over communism about the movements various campaigns, books, seminars, etc.? --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Ed. There is already an article on CAUSA, although it could use some work. Anyway, allow me to "tip my hand" a little.  People are not so interested in reading an article on a UC related organization.  And if the article seemed to be making the claim that the UC helped to defeat communism that would cause an automatic counter impulse where people would try to deny it. (i.e "Communism never really existed." "It was really Gorbachev, or the Internet, or whatever that ended it anyway." etc.)  On the other hand an article which said the UC was linked with anti-communism would find many more interested readers, and some of them might even learn something. Steve Dufour (talk) 18:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Page number
Can you please provide a page number for the Massimo Introvigne cite at Hak Ja Han? Thanks, Cirt (talk) 06:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the effort you are making to provide accurate information about the church for people who are interested in learning more. BTW I was serious when I suggested you write a book. You know enough and you write better than many people who get paid for it. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 18:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for your sincere efforts. I suspect that "PeterSymonds" is a sockpuppet of "Cirt", or maybe the other way around. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 02:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW I think Ed probably wrote the opening sentence to Hak Ja Han (who else would?) and now Cirt's defending it.Steve Dufour (talk) 02:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Unification Church political views
An article that you have been involved in editing, Unification Church political views, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Steve Dufour (talk) 12:07, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of sourced information
You have been reverted here, and I have endorsed the decision. Please do not sourced information without consensus for your actions. Thank you. Peter Symonds ( talk ) 21:59, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Frank Kaufmann
The person determined to have this bio removed has returned to Frank Kaufmann with a vengeance, no doubt slowly building back up the case to spring a new call for deletion. The last time this happened I aged 10 years trying to keep abreast of the manipulation of wiki rules as a newbie.

I will try to stay steady in the response to the one who wants this article removed, but I don't have the strength and knowledge. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much Mybesteffort (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

AfD of UC article
Since you have worked on Unification Church articles you might be interested in Articles for deletion/Frederick Sontag. Borock (talk) 15:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I hope you'll oppose the deletion, as Frederick Sontag is one of the few scholars ever to conduct an objective examination of Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church. That alone merits inclusion.


 * There's a campaign afoot to exclude everything from Wikipedia that says anything good about SMM or the UC, and then to argue that -- since there are "no significant sources" that say anything good about them -- only the viewpoint of opponents should be heard. This clearly violates NPOV. --Uncle Ed (talk) 19:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Merge
Hi. I've just proposed merging Unification Church and antisemitism into Divine Principle. Please join in the discussion, if you like. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Template renaming
I've suggested renaming Template:Sun Myung Moon to Template:Unification Church. Since you contributed to the template you might want to express your opinion at Template talk:Sun Myung Moon. Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 13:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

University of Bridgeport
Hi, ExUC. Your version of this article was restored by an admin, and the article was semi-protected. Thanks for your repeated and devoted attention to this topic. :-) --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of True Family
An article that you have been involved in editing, True Family, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Borock (talk) 13:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

AfD
Please see: Articles for deletion/MooniesBorock (talk) 07:35, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The M word
Thanks for your contributions to Moonies. Some critics of the charge have - without conducting or citing any research - charged that the term originated within the movement, was never seen by members as negative, and that therefore there is no basis to members' objections to the use of the term.

If a contributor here were to insert such ideas in the article that would violate the "original research" rule; see also WP:SYNTH, which prohibits us here from drawing our own conclusions or constructing our own arguments. --Uncle Ed (talk) 13:04, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Removing sourced material from article
Please do not removed sourced material from an article, as you have done at Moonie (Unification Church). Per WP:LEAD, everything in the lede is sourced, later in the article body text. You are also making changes that are unsourced and your own POV, and thus a violation of WP:V and WP:NOR. Please stop. Cirt (talk) 13:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, Ex. Long time no see.


 * In an abrupt about turn, I have come to see Cirt as a very useful and friendly person to know. He has worked hard to save the Moonie (term) article from deletion, by adding a ton of secondary sources. He knows the new/latest/current Wikipedia rules about proper sources.


 * Despite getting off to a rocky start (sigh - don't ask), I now think we should support Cirt and listen to him. --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:22, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I only removed wording that was highly POV and factually incorrect (indisputably so). Cirt seems to like to cite Wikipedia policy in a patronizing way as a cover for his ignorance of the subject matter, which is likely the reason for the bias rather than an intentional agenda. -Exucmember (talk) 06:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. Your comment there is also highly inappropriate, as was the removal of the sourced info itself, as the material is in fact in the cited source. Please be more careful in the future not to attack other editors and make negative, factually incorrect statements about them. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 13:16, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What specifically are you calling "highly inappropriate"? Are you claiming expertise in the subject matter? -Exucmember (talk) 06:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Your false comments about me, here, that you have refused to strikeout. Cirt (talk) 06:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you forgotten that you just cited the diff above for my comments? (I re-read them, of course, prior to my question.) I then asked you "what specifically" you found objectionable, and your answer was unresponsive (not atypical for you, if I must be honest). Your characterization used extreme language and was followed by a false statement. Is this your method of taking the high road as an administrator and encouraging me to be more cooperative? I can be more cooperative, but I'd ask you to tone it down too. -Exucmember (talk) 06:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess that means you are aware of your false statement about me, and yet refusing to strikeout. Cirt (talk) 06:48, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again, unresponsive! I asked you "what specifically" twice, and you haven't answered. You also repeated the false statement that I have "refused." (I have made no statement on the matter - to be expected, as you have provided no clarification.) But your apparent unwillingness to tell me "what specifically" you find objectionable is beginning to look like refusal. Are you really trying to improve the editing atmosphere or are you just trying to harass me? -Exucmember (talk) 07:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You claimed I introduced "false references" . This was pointed out very clearly to you that you were incorrect. You refused to strikeout this incorrect claim about me. Cirt (talk) 07:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. (Finally!!) Your citing two paragraphs and expecting me to somehow know which phrase you found objectionable was not reasonable. I explained in some detail on that talk page how it was easy to make the mistake since the document turns out not to be searchable, there is no discussion of the topic in the body of the cited reference, and the quotation is actually just a passing comment which comprises a footnote. If you had responded to my objection the first time, I would never have said anything about it on the talk page. But your response was to ignore the objection I made, revert my edit, provide no clarification of sourcing, lecture me on that talk page and here as though I were a naughty child - all before my comment there. -Exucmember (talk) 07:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Your negative factually incorrect comments about me
Please be more careful before making false statements about sources, and factually incorrect comments about other editors. When incorrect and not backed up by anything, these can amount to violations of WP:NPA. Specifically this - the material is in Footnote 16 of the cited source. I would appreciate it if you would strikeout the false negative comments you posted about me from the talk page. Thank you, Cirt (talk) 13:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, in both of these two subsections you added to the talk page, you have made negative and factually incorrect claims about an individual editor, claims not backed up by any sources, in violation of WP:NPA. Please strikeout your inappropriate comments from both subsections. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 13:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Exucmember, you may also want to read WP:BATTLE if you have not already done so. DigitalC (talk) 17:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

ANI
Hello,. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Cirt (talk) 04:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I would appreciate it if a neutral editor would read the comments on the relevant talk page (Talk:Moonie_(Unification_Church)), and then share their opinions with Cirt about his behavior. His picking a fight with me by his patronizing lecturing of me at length on my talk page because of my removing a single sourced sentence (which I now see is not a false source but rather an unreliable one) and not responding at all to the reason I gave in the edit summary, his high-handed treatment of me while he and I are involved in a minor content dispute (though I refrained from reverting any of the edits of mine that he reverted), his arrogant dismissal of problems I raised about the article, etc., might easily be seen as an abuse of the administrator position. I have heard that Wikipedians are reluctant to tell an administrator that he might have acted differently, but I hope someone has the courage to do so in addition to pointing out how I might have acted differently after being treated this way by Cirt. At what point does a completely overblown, aggressive campaign against an editor with whom you have a content dispute become harassment? It's certainly a good way to drive editors who have expertise in certain subject matter (including subject matter you, the administrator, may have known very little about previously) away from Wikipedia. -Exucmember (talk) 05:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest that you take a step back and look at the way you're attempting to "collaborate" (Wikipedia is a collaborative project), and you might see why things are in the situation they are now. I'm completely neutral, I don't really know Cirt, other than that he is an admin, and I can see that your actions are a little overboard. You can disagree with Cirt about things, without being disagreeable. :-) Killiondude (talk) 05:14, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Exucmember, you may want to comment on the ANI discussion as well - I took a look at the source you and Cirt were disputing over and I was able to find the quote you removed. It's in the footnote on page 21. Your comments were rather unnecessarily curt, and Wikipedia depends on maintaining a collegial atmosphere. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 05:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't disagree with either of you.
 * Hersfold, if you had the time to review the situation very carefully (I'm not saying you should), you'd see that because no page number or footnote was given, and after I did a search of the linked document and then read that source for half an hour and still couldn't find any discussion of the term "Moonie" it was reasonable of me to remove the sentence (which does not help the article anyway). Instead of providing the page number and the footnote number, Cirt lectured me on the article talk page and on my personal talk page about removing sourced material, reverted me, and only on the next round provided a reasonable way to verify the passing comment in a footnote. When the second reference I checked also seemed to be misleading, I started to wonder. I have found Cirt in the past to be one of the most difficult editors to work with I have encountered in 3 1/2 years on Wikipedia, not only in relation to myself but in interactions (some of which are at great length) with other editors. I'm not saying this to criticize him; it is merely my opinion based on my experience, and I mention it only because I have tried the more reasonable approach with him in the past and I did not receive a reasonable response.
 * Keep in mind that I am a critic of the Unification Church, but I become indignant when I see prejudice and bigotry directed at the members. I'm like the white guy who becomes upset when someone tries to argue that the n-word is not negative because it just means "black" and because African-Americans use it themselves. I'm not saying Cirt is either prejudiced or bigoted (I don't believe he is); but he seems to be adopting as factual the arguments of people who in some cases are bigoted, because he doesn't quote the arguments and cite their partisans, but presents those arguments implicitly, as though they were the viewpoint of Wikipedia. He then went to great lengths to prevent me from modifying even the weakest arguments of that type in the article (of which there are many - the article is extremely repetitive, as Hrafn pointed out; it needs to be trimmed down significantly.)
 * Do either of you think that it is appropriate for an administrator to be provocative in the way I think is obvious from this talk page and the edits to Moonie_(Unification_Church) and Talk:Moonie_(Unification_Church)? If not, are you willing to say something? -Exucmember (talk) 06:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Exuc in that Cirt has some WP:Ownership articles with Moonies. However the same could be said for Exuc since he is trying to promote what's really an extreme position, which I have disagreed before on the article's talk page, that the word "Moonie" was created to be offensive and is always used that way. Mostly however I have found him to be very polite a constructive contributor to WP's coverage of Unification Church articles. The "Moonies" article is not so bad now and will surely improve. I think people ought to cool off, including me. Steve Dufour (talk) 22:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't believe "Moonie" is always used in an offensive manner. But the word was invented by journalists critical of the Unification Church and most sociologists of religion agree that it is intended as pejorative. -Exucmember (talk) 07:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with that. Anyway my attempts to include non-negative material in the article were also rejected.Steve Dufour (talk) 12:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

BTW -- Here's a article Cirt just started: Normal People Scare Me, very good and positive. Maybe we should give him a little space to be himself. Obviously trying to fight with him doesn't help. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 16:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * p.s. I am probably somewhere on the Autism spectrum myself. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 01:16, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

New article
Here is someone you might know: Joseph Churba. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:16, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of News World Communications
An article that you have been involved in editing, News World Communications, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Kitfoxxe (talk) 20:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Biased sources
Last year you wrote Actually, I have read parts of it, particularly the first page. I lost count of the number of distortions in it, but the average was one per sentence.
 * You have indicated that you haven't read Nansook's book, which is really hard to understand.

My favorite part of the book is where Nan Sook distorts what one of the younger True Family kids said about True Mother: "I think her job is shopping." No mention, of course, of the countless hours she devoted to shopping for other people including church leaders. Only the sly insinuation that she's some kind of uber-Imelda Marcos, priming her own vanity by wasting money on new outfits for her own gratification.

Some of my friends have been taken out clothes shopping by Mother Moon, and they felt she was really devoting herself to their well-being. Not a hint of that comes out in the book. They make her seem like some kind of monster, and Father Moon comes off as somewhere in evil between Adolf Hitler and the devil himself.

It's not the sort of thing that makes sense for me to keep reading. It's a hatchet job: character assassination financed by a major US church opponent and ghostwritten by a professional journalist. I'm surprised Wikipedia could even consider letting it be called a reliable source. --Uncle Ed (talk) 22:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of List of Unificationists
An article that you have been involved in editing, List of Unificationists, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Northwestgnome (talk) 05:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Jonathan Wells (intelligent design advocate)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Jonathan Wells (intelligent design advocate), has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Wolfview (talk) 12:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Moonie (Unification Church)
Hi Exucmember. Cirt and I has just started a discussion on the talk page about removing some of the extra examples and trivia from the page. Please join in if you care to. Thanks. Kitfoxxe (talk) 23:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Merge
I've just suggested merging True Family into List of Unification Church members since the information in the first is mostly aready in the second. Please discuss if you like: Talk:List of Unification Church members. Kitfoxxe (talk) 09:02, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Indemnity (Unification Church)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Indemnity (Unification Church), has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Borock (talk) 16:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC) Borock (talk) 16:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

AfD
Please see: Articles for deletion/Global Peace Festival since you contributed to the article. Borock (talk) 10:37, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Ed Poor and talk page topic ban for Unification Church related articles
Arbitration/Requests/Amendment. You received this notification because you regularly edited Unification Church related subjects. Please comment there. Andries (talk) 16:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Btw, I hope that you were joking what you wrote on your user page about "saving the world". It sounds to me like hubris. Andries (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Ed Poor 2 has been amended by the Arbitration Committee
Please see here for further details. On behalf of the arbitration committee, Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC).

Did you read the book?
I did read most of the book. I will revert. I only did not write down a page nr. but the book has an index. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Making_of_a_Moonie&diff=250909752&oldid=250707872 Andries (talk) 18:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I've suggested merging Divine Principle to Unification Church. Check out my reasoning on Talk:Divine Principle and see what you think. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:07, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Hyun Jin Moon for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Hyun Jin Moon is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Hyun Jin Moon until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.  DGG ( talk ) 18:03, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Pursuit.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Pursuit.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 18:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)