User talk:HollerithPunchCard

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The Wikipedia tutorial is a good place to start learning about Wikipedia. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and discussion pages using four tildes, like this: &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; (the software will replace them with your signature and the date). Again, welcome! Doug Weller talk 15:33, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

June 2020
Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Your recent talk page comments were not added to the bottom of the page. New discussion page messages and topics should always be added to the bottom. Your message may have been moved. In the future you can use the "New section" link in the top right. For more details see the talk page guidelines. Thank you. MrOllie (talk) 11:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out, Mr.Ollie. I will take note of this.

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either: This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.
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Thank you. -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  17:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Important Notice
Doug Weller talk 15:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks
Not a great way to begin your Wikipedia experience, I'm afraid, but thank you. (btw, I'm also a big Arendt fan. Maybe that's why I hate the pre-political tactics of the mob?)

Anyway, let me know if you have any questions. Not every editor on here is hostile. Some are actually quite helpful.  The Blue Canoe  22:35, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi BlueCanoe! Thank you for the kind encouragement! Just starting out and trying to learn the ropes, as I am keen to contribute and share knowledge. Some of the environments I've come across recently are really more toxic than usual, and I try to do what I can to maintain civility, because I think that is a precondition to knowledge inquiry. I got some taste of this aggression first hand and I'm quite impressed by some of the folks who stick around in this kind of environment. Btw, how did you know that I like Arendt? HollerithPunchCard (talk) 03:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, exactly that — a measure of intellectual humility would seem to be a precondition for discovering where knowledge is incomplete. Civility, and a willingness to assume good faith is also a core principles of the encyclopedia, for precisely the reasons you identify. Unfortunately there seem to be some people who believe that, when they don't have a firm evidentiary ground to stand on, they can prevail in arguments through something like force, and by making the environment toxic for anyone who stands in their way. Which makes sticking in even more important.
 * I gathered you liked Arendt from looking through your edit history. It's pretty obvious. But also, who doesn't like Arendt?  The Blue Canoe  22:38, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

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July 2020
@Doug Weller: Please kindly tell me what exactly it is I did that can be construed as disruptive editing for vandalizing. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 19:07, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Misclick, this is what I meant to leave you. "comment on an editor" would have been ok, that was OTT. Doug Weller  talk 19:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. Constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, but a recent edit of yours to the page Talk:Falun Gong has an edit summary that appears to be inaccurate or inappropriate. The summaries are helpful to people browsing an article's history, so it is important that you use edit summaries that accurately tell other editors what you did. Feel free to use the sandbox to make test edits. Thank you. Doug Weller talk 19:31, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Thank you for your clarification. Can I confirm that the reason for your warning is that I have provided an inaccurate or inappropriate edit summary for my edits, and not with the substance of the edits themselves? I want to be absolutely clear and just so that I know what to do properly in the future, without inadvertently engaging a ban from you. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 19:37, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: I note your comments on the issue of edit summary and will exercise care on this issue going forward.HollerithPunchCard (talk) 19:39, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Holly heck, you are judicious.
Thank you for doing the reading. I keep a folder of readable pdfs of academic books and journals on this topic (most of them far more rigorous than Klavan, whose methodology I found....wanting). You're welcome to email me if you are interested. We need more editors who actually engage with the material open-mindedly, rather than cherry-picking and stretching sources to fit some preferred narrative as part of some weird discursive battle.

It is baffling to me that this article — which is now locked in its current state — now makes no mention of the fundamental moral precepts of FLG, except to present them as a ploy to deceive outsiders. Every intervention that administrators have taken to prevent edit warring on this page have, perversely, made it more difficult to deal with the obviously fallacious claims that have made their way onto the page.  The Blue Canoe  17:27, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Stealing a break to reply...

Thanks for your kind message. This is my concern. An editor throws in 5 sources. He makes a one-liner statement on what each source says. It takes him maybe 30 seconds to make that statement. But it took me half an hour to review the source to figure out if the source actually says what the editor claimed it says--and it does not.

Maybe we have one falsehood corrected. But the rest of his claims remain unchallenged, and inevitably makes its way in the article. It is unchallenged not because it is correct, but because remedy to his actions demand the kind of time investment that the Wiki community cannot afford.

This is a sad reality that is beyond my power alone to solve, but I'll keep at it if I can.

Thanks for your very kind offer of sharing your collection of academic sources. I might take you up on it if I have the time HollerithPunchCard (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

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June 2022
Your edit to International Criminal Court investigation in Darfur has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images&mdash;you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Copying text from other sources for more information. Dark-World25 (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)


 * You alleged that my June 1 2022 edit on the International Criminal Court investigation pertaining to Sudan infringes on the copyright of an unnamed, unmarked blog, bearing the URL: http://currinfo.blogspot.com/2018/01/international-criminal-court.html
 * I have no knowledge of this unmarked blog. Every information that I have taken for this edit are from the official website of the International Criminal Court, at https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/2022-05/TheCourtTodayEng.pdf and https://www.icc-cpi.int/news?f%5B0%5D=related_to%3A11.
 * I attribute every information this website to its true source, and make reasonable edits to the expressions taken from the source.
 * In any event, my reports on the investigation and prosecution of the core international crimes such as crime against humanity, genocide, and warcrime, would have been a clear instance of fair use. This use is absolutely non-profit, and clearly for the purpose of nonprofit public education. There is limited, if any, creativity and imagination involved in the subject matter, which is purely a matter of fact i.e. X is prosecuted for Y on Z date. My edit has limited, if any, effect, on the commercial value of the subject matter. No one can reasonably claim that the International Criminal Court is in the business of prosecuting human rights violators to make money.
 * Allegation of copyright infringement is serious. I invite you to justify your allegation and actions in not only reverting, but rolling back my edit. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 21:31, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I've studied the deleted content and compared it to the sources you've stated above. While the content is not a copyvio of those sources, there is a high degree of correlation with the wording of the blog according to the copyvio detection tool While the tool is not infallible, this is just too high to ignore.  There are times when it is unavoidable to repeat content of the "X is prosecuted for Y on Z date" but the edit @Dark-World25 removed is word for word with the blog even down to the way the location of the alleged offences is laid out.  While I accept your assertion that you were unaware of the blog, the degree of similarity is such that I cannot, at the moment, restore the deleted content.  Note, commercial value is not an issue here.  If the two paragraphs were re-written to avoid paraphrasing either the ICC press releases or the blog, I don't see an issue with that. Nthep (talk) 22:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Dark-World25@Nthep Thank you for your reply. If by the alleged copyright violation, you are referring to the discussions on Abu Garda, I can advise that I did not copy this discussion from an external source. Instead, I imported this discussion from a related wiki-page on ICC investigations where it was originally found (at: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=International_Criminal_Court_investigations&action=edit&section=13). I imported this discussion as it properly belongs to the article that I imported these discussions to.
 * This allegedly infringing discussion was originally created by another editor on that wiki page, over 12 years again, and has remained on that page for all that time, with no allegation of copyright infringement. That original discussion was originally sourced to several links that are now defunct. I question if this anonymous, unmarked blog posts, owns that allegedly copyrighted discussion, as the same discussions seem to appear in multiple, aged sources.
 * Moreover, and perhaps the irony, is that I was the only who made changes to this allegedly infringing discussion, because I found its language out of place and awkward in certain parts.
 * Btw, the issue of commercial value is raised because it is relevant to the issue of fair use. If the reproduction of a literary text constitutes fair use, it is not a copyright infringement even if it is otherwise a 100% copy of the original source. Because copyright law recognizes that while certain reproduction is harmful, certain reproduction is not, and could even be encouraged, depending on the circumstances.
 * I thank you for your invitation to re-edit. As what happened to my edit was not just a "revert", but a "rollback", where the record of my edit is lost forever, I will not have the opportunity to review or re-edit what has been irrevocably erased. I will have no choice but to leave it as it is.
 * I only ask that I be given the courtesy of a notice next time, before such drastic moves are taken. And before conclusions are drawn. These ICC pages, I feel, have high public importance, but has received limited maintenance all these years. I put in a lot of effort to edit these pages, which contains information of important public interests. I do not ask others to do the same, but only this effort is not undone.
 * Thank you.HollerithPunchCard (talk) 04:08, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * If you'd said from the outset, your edit was copied from another Wikipedia article then the situation would be more easily explained. The original content is from 2010, the blog is therefore a copyright infringement of the Wikipedia article. Now that is known we can ignore the blog.
 * I would request that you have a read of the guideline on copying within Wikpedia and, in any future cases, attribute where you are copying from. That way anyone, like @Dark-World25, who is looking for potential copyright infringements knows that there is something else to be looked at and not as appeared here that your edit of 1 June was copying material from a 2018 blog.
 * Please also be aware that the Wikimedia Foundation's attitude and guidance on non-free content is a lot stricter than either US fair use or UK fair dealing provisions.
 * I have undelete the material, I leave it to you if you wish to re-add it in its former form or wish to rephrase it in any way. Nthep (talk) 06:25, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Nthep Thank you for your response. I've reviewed the guidelines on copying within Wikipedia, and non-free content, which is informative and helpful. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 02:31, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

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Falun Gong
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Falun Gong DRN thread
It appears that we had a race condition in that you were making a statement at DRN about the Falun Gong dispute at the same time as I was closing it. I closed it because it is also pending at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard. So please make your statement at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard, where the Falun Gong article is being discussed. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:54, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Robert McClenon I appreciate this notification, Robert, and I realized that too. I will do post my statement to the Fringe Theories Noticeboard at the appropriate time. This topic on that Noticeboard is flooded with posts right now. I'll give that discussion a break for the time being. Cheers. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 05:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

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