User talk:Holt/2008

Welcome
Welcome!

Hello, Holt, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! --Berig (talk) 05:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
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Troll cross
You say that the odal rune origin of the troll cross is an unsourced theory, but your mention of the Greek omega sign seems much more farfetched, IMO. Could you please elaborate on how it is likely that rural Scandinavians were equally familiar with Greek letters as they were with runes.--Berig (talk) 06:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * When I mention the Omega, I am just talking about similarities in shape. I do not claim that they are related in any way. But as this obviously creates confusion, it's not necessary to mention. I am about to create a separate article on the troll cross, which will deal with theories of origin and connections to other symbols. I am not saying that Odal and the troll cross are not related, but so far I have not read anything serious that supports this theory. As soon as I encounter such a source, it is certainly very relevant to mention. Have you read anything about a connection between the troll cross and Odal? --Holt (talk) 12:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am afraid that I have only hearsay to go on there so I would not disagree with a tag. I have seen you do some good work and I am looking forward to your article on the troll cross.--Berig (talk) 15:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am working with gathering sources about the troll cross at the moment, I found some German chunks that I ought to get translated soon. Unfortunately, I have not yet read anything exhaustive on the symbol - it remains obscure to me. --Holt (talk) 23:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Putting this on the shelf for now, the article would just be one huge lump of OR and hearsay. --Holt (talk) 01:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks...
...for signing up at the Ancient Germanic culture project proposal! We only need a few more signatures to get the project underway. Your willingness to participate is greatly appreciated. —Aryaman (Enlist!) 17:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am glad to help! --Holt (talk) 23:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

thanks

 * I think I have fixed all after my standards now. Thanks for the star! --Holt (talk) 16:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Ancient Germanic studies
Hi Holt. As we now have enough members, I have been getting ready to set up WikiProject Ancient Germanic studies and have posted some notes and random odds and ends in my sandbox. You can observe the current state of affairs here. I will be creating the project page in the next few days so that we can discuss the proposed elements. However, if you see anything that you feel requires immediate correction, feel free to contact me with the details. Thanks. —Aryaman (Enlist!) 23:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the notice. It looks great, Aryaman, I'm looking forward to this. --Holt (talk) 13:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! In the interim, the project page has been created. The scope is currently under discussion and all members are requested to comment on the talk page. Thanks again for signing up! — Aryaman (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

A runestone picture
Hi Holt. Since you live in Østlandet do you know someone who could provide a picture of the Alstad runestone (N 62), or even the Galteland runestone (N 184)?--Berig (talk) 07:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello, Berig. I might take a trip to Oslo in the following weeks to buy some books, so I can drop by the museum. Is there anything else you want me to photograph in the Oslo area while I'm at it? --Holt (talk) 13:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Don't hesitate to take any pics of notable Norwegian runestones or finds from the Oseberg ship burial. I am planning to write a GA, or better, on that burial.--Berig (talk) 16:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I will do my best to capture important or otherwise interesting items. I will give you a notice on your talk page when I have taken the trip. --Holt (talk) 20:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Ancient Germanic studies/Runes
Hi Holt, I have started the work group, or task force, for runic studies.--Berig (talk) 17:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello, that is good to hear! I will see what I can contribute with in the following days. --Holt (talk) 21:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Runestone images
I'd be grateful for pictures of any Danish runestones on display in the museum in Copenhagen.--Berig (talk) 17:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Rune poem origins
Hi, Holt. I didn't know if you had the page marked on your watch list, so I thought I would drop this off on your talkpage regarding the Rune poem origins:


 * A note in Heusler's Altgermanische Dichtung (1929) led me to Dickins' Runic and Heroic Poems (1915). Thanks to the wonderful folks at the Internet Archive, you can view the online flipbook here. Be sure to read the introduction to the rune poems (pp. 1-11). It also has a good (though early) bibliography. That should get you headed in the right direction. ;)

I hope that helps! — Aryaman (talk) 22:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, Aryaman! I have not read through the material you provided yet, but I trust your good sense of judgement that things will be much more clear for me after reading it :)


 * Shouldn't the origins be added to the article? (Maybe I'll change my mind after reading.) --Holt (talk) 23:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, the MSS tradition certainly should be. Most of what you will need is in Dickins' book. On pg. 6 you'll find the name of the MS. which contained the OE poem (destroyed by fire in 1731). On pp. 6-7 you'll find reference to the MS of the Norwegian poem (also destroyed by fire, this time in 1728). On pg. 7 you'll find all four of the MSS for the Icelandic poem. If you have access to a good library, maybe you can even track down some of the works in the bibliography, perhaps even snagging copy of a public domain facsimile of one of the Icelandic MS. Good luck! — Aryaman (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

PS: In case the font on the flip book is too small, here's the book's page at the Library. You will find a PDF version and a DjVu version linked in the left-hand column. — Aryaman (talk) 23:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I cannot read everything it says. The images are very blurry. What browser do you use? --Holt (talk) 23:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Check the link above. You will find a PDF that should be perfectly readable. Aryaman  (talk) 23:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hehe, I was just about to correct myself when I saw the link to the other versions, but there was a edit conflict. Thanks again! --Holt (talk) 23:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. Researching is one of my favorite parts of working on an article, and I'm happy if people can use the information. Let me know if/when you want any help with the Rune poem article additions. — Aryaman (talk) 01:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Will do. Right now I should either be a) in bed or b) writing an assignment. I think, however, I will go for hidden option c) – eating and reading. --Holt (talk) 01:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Notes on Alu (runic)
Hi Holt. I have written a short passage on the etymology of Alu, though I am at a complete loss when it comes to formatting my refs in the style you guys have chosen for that article. Here's what I have. All the needed citation info should be on the Alu talk page. Would you mind formatting this and inserting it into the article? Feel free to modify the text as you see fit. Thanks. — Aryaman (talk) 13:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

Although the literal meaning of the word alu is generally accepted to be "ale", i.e. "intoxicating beverage", researchers have found it necessary to look deeper into the significance of the term. Earlier proposed etymologies for the word sought a connection with Proto-Germanic *aluh "amulet, taboo" from *alh "protect". Cognates in Germanic dialects would include Old English ealh "temple", Gothic alhs "temple", and Old Norse alh "amulet". Polomé initially proposed an etymological connection between Germanic alu and Hittite alwanza "affected by witchcraft", which is in turn connected to Greek alúõ "to be beside oneself" and Latvian aluôt "to be distraught". This etymology was later proven faulty and subsequently dropped by Polomé, though he continues to suggest that a common semantic denominator connects these words with alu.


 * Sure thing, Aryaman – that's the least I can do! :) (But to warn you though, I'm no expert in this style either, but I will do my best. I have learnt that style from Bloodofox; I'll get in touch with him and ask him to revise as needed afterwards.) –Holt T•C 13:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello to you both! Maybe we ought to convert the style over to Aryaman's proposed Harvard standard (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ancient_Germanic_studies), what do you think? bloodofox: (talk) 14:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That is true, I think we should let Alu be an article that follows all the guidelines of the AGS project – as a standard for other articles. I changed Aryaman's references for now (except the Torp (1909:21) one, help!), but I will gladly help converting to Harvard standards. –Holt T•C 14:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that's my omission regarding Torp. I was referring to:

Fick, August/Torp, Alf (1909). Vergleichendes Worterbuch der Indogermanischen Sprachen: Dritter Teil: Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit. Vandenhoek und Ruptecht:Göttingen.

Runestone pics
Good pictures that you have taken in Copenhagen. I'll check out the runestones you shot in Rundata.--Berig (talk) 13:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the pics, and especially those of the Norwegian runestones! I'll add them to the articles right away.--Berig (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
Well, as usual on WP it is difficult to make people agree on details and that is why we have straw polls and WP:BOLD :). I decided that it's more important to me to get on writing articles than to have long discussions that stop me from doing so. I don't like the suggestion of using Harvard referencing simply because the vast majority of articles give references in notes, and consequently the notes system be standard for WP whenever such a standard will be agreed on.--Berig (talk) 20:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand that very well. But about the rune articles, would you mind at all if I start to shine them up a bit? More important to get something done than adhering to details, as you said. Though I can in any case not edit in any great scale in the coming weeks as I am taking a hunting course. –Holt T•C 20:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, if you want to do major changes in the larger articles where I'm the main editor, I'd prefer that we discuss it first. If you want to expand some of the many stubs, I'll observe your work with pleasure.--Berig (talk) 20:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Unspecified source and copyright for Image:Kinneve stone (Vg 134).jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Kinneve stone (Vg 134).jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be a justification explaining why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

The file also doesn't have a copyright tag, so one must be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Fair use, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following [ this link]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 15:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

I've tagged it as "no license" 'cause I've not understood where the permission is. The image description contains no OTRS.  J  alo   15:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC) PS: I don't use the watch list. If you answer me here, leave also a message in it:Discussioni utente:Jalo


 * Perfect, now I can import that image on it.wiki too :-)
 * Feel free to modify my images. I was doubtful about the U, I'll update also the svg version. Bye  J  alo   16:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
For the kind word. :} bloodofox: (talk) 16:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the least I can give you back for being kind and helpful! {: –Holt T•C 16:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

thanks
that was a mistake using a tool. i wondered when i saw the biog template, i though who would added that? as they're fictious but it was me who added it! i've corrected Tom (talk) 22:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hehe, alright. Glad we sorted that out. –Holt T•C 22:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:WikiProject Norse history and culture
Hi! I've left a message on the project talk, but thought, since the talk isn't particularly active, that I'd send out a few talk page messages as well.

Basically, I've taken on the WikiProject section of the Signpost, and would like to interview everyone about WP:WikiProject Norse history and culture, preferably on the talk page. I'd then edit it down a bit into a newspaper-style article, and link the original discussion at the bottom.

If you'd be interested in participating, could you let me know, either on my talk page, or at the Wikiproject's? Thanks!

Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 11:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Right! I'll set it up over on the talk page. Thanks for helping out! Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 16:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ragnarök
Thanks for the fix! I couldn't quite put my finger on it..! bloodofox: (talk) 10:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Intrusion
You are most welcome to. If only all intruders were so handy! :} bloodofox: (talk) 22:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Svenska run-urkunder runestones
Great additions, Holt! I'll replace an old upload of mine right away :)--Berig (talk) 16:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Holt! You have done tremendous work on the pictures.--Berig (talk) 21:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Sippe
It seems we have at least two articles in the making: One for the term as peace, and another for the term as a cognatic institution; I don't believe it would be helpful to put these two highly divergent concepts into the same article, however close their etymologies may be (compare chase and catch, which are etymological sisters). This being the case, I have one scholarly source using Sippe to refer to the cognatic unit. Are there any other terms commonly used in modern scholarly writing to refer to this cognatic unit? You may wish to use the *sibjō root to describe the peace article, though such usage may be unnecessary when the split has been made? The Jade Knight (talk) 12:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The circumstances of sib are not that easy, unfortunately. In its original shape, the word means both "peace" and "kinship". This is hard for us to understand today, but back then, the two words we use now were represented by this one word. Our "peace", a passive state, is not similar to their "peace", a highly offensive state. Their peace meant a willingness to defend their allies, in this case members of the same sib. It is this that needs to be elaborated and explained in one article, not two. –Holt T•C 12:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC) PS: Which are the two articles you are speaking of? Sippe and..?


 * Having studied Anglo-Saxon and English Historical Linguistics, I'm aware of this concept and problem. However, when I started the article on Sippe, my goal was not to enter into the etymology of the term so much as describe the historical institution (in fact, I had hoped others would be able to dig up more info on the institution).  I do not believe that a discussion of the institution belongs in the same article as a discussion of the PGmc term for peace/kinship, particularly as Sippe is certainly not the only term which is used to describe this institution (Geschlecht is another, as is fara).  I do think that a discussion of the peace/kinship concept in Old English (and other Germanic languages) would make for a very interesting article, however.  Oh, and I'm into runes, too (particularly the A-S Futhorc).  The Jade Knight (talk) 13:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I believe I fully understand your intention now. If it seems that I underestimated your knowledge, I apologize, that was not the purpose. So is it the case that you wish to use Sippe simply as a term to discuss the institution itself, placed on equal terms with Geschlecht etc.? If so, there has been an indirect misunderstanding, and I am glad we have sorted that out. I have thought that you meant Sippe only as the word that has derived from sibjo, thus a direct derivative in the cultural sense too.


 * As I see it we may remove the etymology section, since it gives the impression that Sippe is the one and only term. Then, if there are enough sources to be found, a Sibjo article can be created, containing information on the Germanic institution and the aspect of peace/kinship. What do you think? –Holt T•C 15:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. BTW, it's lucky that I chanced back here.  In the future, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least let me know you've posted a reply here over on my talk page (often I don't come back to check).  The Jade Knight (talk) 21:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

My assessment drive
Hi, I have started to assess the articles in the Norse history and culture project, and the articles A to E are now finished. If you feel that I have wrongly assessed any of them, don't hesitate to change the assessment.--Berig (talk) 09:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Roger, I'll take that in mind. Good initiative! –Holt T•C 14:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Ruthwell Cross
Please note that a commons tag is not a substitute for a selected galleries with captions. Johnbod (talk) 14:05, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Noted. I was a bit too quick with that one. –Holt T•C 15:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem! Johnbod (talk) 16:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)