User talk:Ifly6/Social war

Feedback request[edit]

@T8612 and Avilich: Hi, if you have any feedback on this article (I know it's long) I'd appreciate it. Ifly6 (talk) 10:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added a minor detail to the end of the war section, will see if I can give some feedback. Avilich (talk) 15:41, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some suggestions:

I've expanded a bit on the name.
The lede should only be four paragraphs long.
Regarding the map, the main problem is that we don't have a full svg map of Italy, which makes it difficult to produce good historical maps for the area. Someone should request a map in the Graphic Lab.
Don't abbreviate ancient citations that much. We don't have the space limitations of a print book (Cic. Clu. = Cicero, Pro Cluentio). Then add these sources in the bibliography. I'm also reluctant to add a particular edition for ancient sources, first because of that ugly "Appian (1913)"; can you just write Appian, Civil Wars, with a link to Wikisource?
You should better tell about the different Italian tribes and their political organisation in the "Italy in the second century" section. For example, you mention the Samnites for the first time between parenthesis in the "89 BC" section, way too late.
There are a lot of material on the Samnites in ET Salmon Samnium and the Samnites--still the reference book on the subject; on the Latin War, see also the Commentary on Livy by Stephen Oakley.

I will continue reviewing later. T8612 (talk) 21:38, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback. Re lede, I shortened it. Re maps. I'll take a look at the graphics lab, but in the interim I had already made a pointer request on WP:CGR. Re abbreviations. The strange thing I think with the source abbreviations is that I'm now too used to them; everything else looks weird and I especially don't like how editors will use different titles for the same work, which is why I only use OCD abbreviations. Re Italian tribes, I don't want to get too in-depth on them (there are too many) but I will take a look at this. Cooley (ed), Companion to Roman Italy (2016) I think should be useful. Ifly6 (talk) 22:05, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've added full bibliographic citations and links for Vell. Pat. and Flor., who are both used a not infrequent number of times. Two further remarks. (1) There are a lot of ancient sources, I think it's a bit overboard to give full bibliographic versions for all of them. I also frankly doubt that many people are interested in the sources. Those who are probably know the abbreviations anyway. (2) I provided a specific version because I am very confident someone will add in a link to that version (usually Perseus or LacusCurtius) anyway. Given that it'll eventually end up in the same place, I think it's better to have a full citation that anchors properly. Ifly6 (talk) 10:32, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to take a look at whether we can use GeoPandas to plot the cities on maps for us. Ifly6 (talk) 10:34, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It may be possible to make some decent-looking maps by combining GeoPandas shape files for the relevant Italian regions with Stamen.TerrainBackground basemaps in GeoPandas plots. I'd also need to get a listing of locations and names (all the relevant towns and their coordinates). Ifly6 (talk) 12:19, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@T8612 and Avilich: Any feedback on the article content as it stands right now? I skimmed some portions of Salmon but I'm not entirely sure where it would add to the narrative except in padding the (already long) description of the events; that said, the map in Salmon might be something that I could use as a source in QGIS. Ifly6 (talk) 19:04, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest removing the yearly troop numbers on the infobox, which I myself added some months ago. They're really just rough estimates, and having them in the infobox probably gives them more weight than the original author intended. They may be mentioned in the main text, or simply not at all. Avilich (talk) 23:02, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yea, I had forgotten to update the infobox. Thanks for reminding me. I need to do that. Ifly6 (talk) 00:23, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ifly6: I also think some individual battles deserve at least a sentence's worth of description, when available. For example, in the "Roman breakout" section, there are no details about Lupus' rout and Marius' "stinging" victory. Dart gives some bare details in p. 136 such as the fact that these events took place at a river crossing and that Marius was alerted by the corpses floating down the river, which may be worth alluding to. Avilich (talk) 00:47, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback. I'll take a look when I have some time. (Maybe I've picked up a bit of a habit from writing on the late monarchy and early republic to avoid mentioning details.) Ifly6 (talk) 02:06, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maps[edit]

I forgot to say this earlier. But omg we need a map. Ifly6 (talk) 10:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Initial draft map: https://i.imgur.com/OV5jIaG.png. The blue portions aren't intended for real use and are placeholders based on modern Italian administrative boundaries. The issue is that I don't have shape files for the borders of ancient Latium, Samnium, and Lucania. Any ideas? Ifly6 (talk) 07:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to take a look into digitising the raster file at right and georeferencing it so that I can trace out a shape file. There are too many names so I'll probably keep the limited number of names that I use. Also, I prefer using the terrain background here because otherwise it's difficult to intuitively know that there's the Appenines in the middle of the peninsula. Ifly6 (talk) 13:33, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also please tell me if there are other maps that simply show where the various sides are located. Ifly6 (talk) 13:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this map? https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-934d2174612937003e878b09aab5f5d0-lq. I have no idea, however, on provenance. Ifly6 (talk) 13:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping these links here for my reference:

Ifly6 (talk) 13:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New draft map. Currently depicts Roman land in Italy c. 100 BC. Still need borders for Samnium, Lucania, and the Marsic lands. https://i.imgur.com/jrlRJkt.png. Ifly6 (talk) 00:54, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Map is now done, uploaded, and added in to the current draft. Ifly6 (talk) 23:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]