User talk:Leo1pard/sandbox/Tiger versus lion

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Leo1pard (talk) 11:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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Hi, in case anyone is considering editing this article to reflect the Cat Specialist Group's recent classification of lions in Northern, Western and Central Africa to P. l. leo, and those in Eastern and Southern Africa to P. l. melanochaita, and tigers in Mainland Asia to P. t. tigris, and those in the Sunda Islands to P. t. sondaica, I would like to caution against it for the following reasons:

1) Extensive literature has already been written on topics, such as that of coexistence of Asiatic lions and Bengal and Caspian tigers, and their reported weights. If you were to try to merge the subsections "Asiatic lion and Bengal tiger" and "Asiatic lion and Caspian tiger" to get "Asiatic lion and Mainland Asian tiger," then imagine how bulky that subsection would be, for example.

2) The CSG's classification is not without controversy, for reasons mentioned in the talk pages of articles like Lion and Panthera.

Unless you are adding new information, or have to use the new classification. For example, I would call those lions in Mashonaland, in the section about the lengths of lions and tigers, as 'Melanochaitan' lions (P. l. melanochaita), not 'Leonine' lions (P. l. leo), based on this map by Bertola et al., and in case you are confused about it, let me elaborate later.

I am not saying that you have to talk about those lions in Mashonaland being 'Melanochaitan' lions, that is to give you an idea. Now, as for this issue of 'Leonine' or 'Melanochaitan' lions, it is like this, the Cat Specialist Group subsumed lions in Asia and Northern, Western and Central Africa to P. l. leo, and those in Eastern and Southern Africa to P. l. melanochaita, but, as I have said elsewhere, that classification is not as simple as it sounds. Firstly, let us define the 'Leonine' or 'Leonic' clade of lions (P. l. leo) as the clade which includes Asian, Barbary and West African lions, and the 'Melanochaitan' clade as that of lions in Eastern and Southern Africa, and includes Cape and Tsavo lions. One issue with the classification by the CSG is that the Leonic and Melanochaitan clades overlap in Eastern or Northeastern Africa, so how would you classify lions in those areas, such as the Ethiopian lion? Another issue is that some Eastern-Southern African lions, hence Melanochaitan lions, are in Central Africa, as shown by this map by Bertola et al., so it is wrong to treat all Central African lions as being Leonic. That said, it appears that the African lion, never mind the lion in general, is more complicated than the tiger, phylogeographically and taxonomically, even a glance at the tables above should give that impression. In particular, Dubache et al. (2005) said that nine subspecies were named for lions in East Africa!

Leo1pard (talk) 11:32, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Is a tiger's paw-swipe really more powerful than that of a lion?
Earlier, it was stated in the Section "Paw Swipe" that tigers had the most powerful paw-swipes in the Cat Family, but, although the referenced source mentioned that a tiger's paw-swipe could crush a cow's skull, it did not mention how powerful it was, compared to that of a lion. In fact, there is evidence that while a Barbary lion and Bengal tiger battled, the tiger's paw-swipes were faster but less powerful, whereas the lion's paw-swipes were slower but more powerful, causing deeper cuts to the tiger's hide than those of the lion, and push it off, enough for the tiger to stumble to about twenty feet away, so the tiger essentially had to kill the lion, by scratching it to death, not by beating it up, like how the lion beat up the tiger. If there is reliable information that if a tiger could or did do a heavier paw-swipe than that of a lion, then I would welcome it. Leo1pard (talk) 05:45, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

=== I did not copy the information in "Atlas the Barbary lion versus the Bengal tiger of Simla," from 'Insidehoop.com', rather, someone in 'Insidehoop.com' apparently copied the information from my previous work in the Article "Tiger versus lion," so 'Insidehoop.com' has my work === Hi, I would like to say I when I edited the Article "Tiger versus lion," I added details to the fight between Atlas the Barbary lion and the Bengal tiger of Simla, on or before the 25th of January, please check the History of the Edits in that Article. Little did I know that on the 28th of January, a user of the website 'Insidehoop.com' copied my work, and let me show you what I mean:

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tiger_versus_lion&diff=701563714&oldid=701563536), 25th of January:

"Revision as of 05:49, 25 January 2016 (edit) (undo) Leo1pard (talk | contribs) (→‎Tigers defeating or killing lions) Next edit → Line 11:

In India, towards the end of the 19th Century, the Gaekwad of Baroda arranged a fair fight between a Barbary lion called 'Atlas', from the Atlas Mountains between Algeria and Morocco, and a Bengal tiger from the Indian region of Shimla, both big and hungry, before an audience of thousands, instead of between the Asiatic lion of India, and the tiger, as Asiatic lions were believed to be no match for Bengal tigers. The tiger was more than ten feet long, over four feet at the shoulder, had long teeth and claws, had strong shoulders, and was agile. The lion looked taller at the head than the tiger, and had large legs, mane and paws. Gettysburg Complier commented that "If the tiger was the personification of graceful strength and supple energy, the lion was the embodiment of massive power and adamantine muscle." The tiger crawled forward, crouched flat and calculated the distance for a spring, and then jumped onto Atlas. Atlas rose up on his hind legs, and crashed with the tiger. The two yelled, snarled and rolled over on the ground. They regained their feet and shook to be free. When they parted from the clinch, Atlas swung his right, clawed, paw on the tiger's head, ripping its ears, and scratching off skin. The tiger rolled off, Atlas went to get the tiger, swiping its paw, but the tiger managed to twist away from the paw-swipe, and escaped. Atlas advanced, but the tiger retreated, then jumped into the air, landing on Atlas' back, though it was twenty feet away. At first, Atlas looked disgusted, but then it forced the tiger to the wall of the arena, before the tiger ran, with its head nearly at the ground, towards Atlas' legs. Despite a crash, the tiger's head did not shake, and the two cats rose on their hind legs. For at least three minutes, they exchanged right and left paw swipes. Although the tiger's paw-swipes were faster than those of Atlas, out-numbering Atlas' paw-swipes three-to-one, Atlas' paw swipes had more been heavier, inflicting deeper gashes on the tiger's hide. Both cats injured, they retreated from each other, with blood flowing from their flanks. The tiger retreated to the wall, to hug it, whereas Atlas angrily roared and stood his ground, even though blood was dripping from about twenty wounds. After resting for a few moments, the tiger tried to circle Atlas, with Atlas looking worried, as his rushes did not stop the tiger at first. Then, sensing an opportunity, Atlas charged, but the tiger avoided the charge, and jumped onto Atlas' back again. Their bodies, bloodied and dirtied by the dust, rolled halfway across the arena. Atlas shook himself off the tiger, and delivered right swipes. One of the swipes dealt a blow to the tiger, causing it to stagger and retreat. The tiger sat, studying how effective the previous tussle was. Atlas was mauled, but not yet killed, with two long rips on his back, having deep bites to the shoulder, which bled, and hoarsely panting, with the wind flowing less evidently than those of the tiger. After observing Atlas for a moment, he tried circling Atlas again. Atlas rushed, facing the tiger's claws. After that, the lion, running out of breath, sank to his knees, whereas the tiger, though looking stronger, had its stripes disappear under fast-flowing blood. The tiger sprang onto Atlas, who was staggering, biting Atlas' nose, and then trying to bite Atlas' throat. However, the mane saved Atlas' neck, so the tiger's bite did not suffocate Atlas. Instead, as they wrestled much, the tiger managed to get hair in its mouth, and the hair interfered with the tiger's respiration, so it had to release its hold on Atlas, allowing Atlas to deliver a massive left uppercut, causing the tiger to stumble to about twenty feet away. Although Atlas now looked formidable on his legs, and brave, he could not catch the tiger, and the tiger darted towards him. Atlas used his claws, but missed the tiger, and went over with it. The tiger frantically pawed Atlas' body, using both fore and hind paws, for forty seconds. Then Atlas, in its last effort, threw the tiger off, roared, fell down, and died. As a result, the Gaekwad agreed to pay 37,000 rupees, accepted that the tiger was the "King of the Cat Family," and decided to prepare the tiger for a battle with a Sierra Grizzly bear weighing over 1500.00 lb, to determine which of these was the "King of Carnivorae." The battle was to happen after the tiger recovered from its wounds given to it by Atlas. "

Insidehoop.com (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12091811&postcount=20):

"Wait here it is;

Quote: At the end of the 19th century, the Gaekwad of Baroda arranged a fair fight between a Barbary lion and a Bengal tiger before an audience of thousands as the Asiatic lions were no match for the Bengal tigers. The Gaekwad favoured the lion, and as a result had to pay 37,000 rupees as the lion was mauled by the tiger.

Quote: In India, towards the end of the 19th Century, the Gaekwad of Baroda arranged a fair fight between a Barbary lion called 'Atlas', from the Atlas Mountains between Algeria and Morocco, and a Bengal tiger from the Indian region of Shimla, both big and hungry, before an audience of thousands, instead of between the Asiatic lion of India, and the tiger, as Asiatic lions were believed to be no match for Bengal tigers.

The tiger was more than ten feet long, over four feet at the shoulder, had long teeth and claws, had strong shoulders, and was agile. The lion looked taller at the head than the tiger, and had large legs, mane and paws. Gettysburg Complier commented that "If the tiger was the personification of graceful strength and supple energy, the lion was the embodiment of massive power and adamantine muscle."

The tiger crawled forward, crouched flat and calculated the distance for a spring, and then jumped onto Atlas. Atlas rose up on his hind legs, and crashed with the tiger. The two yelled, snarled and rolled over on the ground. They regained their feet and shook to be free. When they parted from the clinch, Atlas swung his right, clawed, paw on the tiger's head, ripping its ear, and scratching off skin. The tiger rolled off, Atlas went to get the tiger, swiping its paw, but the tiger managed to twist away from the paw-swipe, and escaped. Atlas advanced, but the tiger retreated, then jumped into the air, landing on Atlas' back, though it was twenty feet away. At first, Atlas looked disgusted, but then it forced the tiger to the wall of the arena, before the tiger ran, with its head nearly at the ground, towards Atlas' legs.

Despite a crash, the tiger's head did not shake, and the two cats rose on their hind legs. For at least three minutes, they exchanged right and left paw swipes. Although the tiger's paw-swipes were faster than those of Atlas, out-numbering Atlas' paw-swipes three-to-one, Atlas' paw swipes had more been heavier, inflicting deeper gashes on the tiger's hide. Both cats injured, they retreated from each other, with blood flowing from their flanks. The tiger retreated to the wall, to hug it, whereas Atlas angrily roared and stood his ground, even though blood was dripping from about twenty wounds. After resting for a few moments, the tiger tried to circle Atlas, with Atlas looking worried, as his rushes did not stop the tiger at first. Then, sensing an opportunity, Atlas charged, but the tiger avoided the charge, and jumped onto Atlas' back again.

Their bodies, bloodied and dirtied by the dust, rolled halfway across the arena. Atlas shook himself off the tiger, and delivered right swipes. One of the swipes dealt a blow to the tiger, causing it to stagger and retreat. The tiger sat, studying how effective the previous tussle was. Atlas was mauled, but not yet killed, with two long rips on his back, having deep bites to the shoulder, which bled, and hoarsely panting, with the wind flowing less evidently than those of the tiger.

After observing Atlas for a moment, he tried circling Atlas again. Atlas rushed, facing the tiger's claws. After that, the lion, running out of breath, sank to his knees, whereas the tiger, though looking stronger, had its stripes disappear under fast-flowing blood. The tiger sprang onto Atlas, who was staggering, biting Atlas' nose, and then trying to bite Atlas' throat. However, the mane saved Atlas' neck, so the tiger's bite did not suffocate Atlas. Instead, as they wrestled much, the tiger managed to get hair in its mouth, and the hair interfered with the tiger's respiration, so it had to release its hold on Atlas, allowing Atlas to deliver a massive left uppercut, causing the tiger to stumble to about twenty feet away. Although Atlas now looked formidable on his legs, and brave, he could not catch the tiger, and the tiger darted towards him.

Atlas used his claws, but missed the tiger, and went over with it. The tiger frantically pawed Atlas' body, using both fore and hind paws, for forty seconds. Then Atlas, in its last effort, threw the tiger off, roared, fell down, and died. As a result, the Gaekwad agreed to pay 37,000 rupees, accepted that the tiger was the "King of the Cat Family," and decided to prepare the tiger for a battle with a Sierra Grizzly bear weighing over 1,500.00 lb (680.39 kilograms), to determine which of these was the "King of Carnivorae." The battle was to happen after the tiger recovered from its wounds given to it by Atlas.[2][9] Last edited by ... : 01-28-2016 at 02:53 AM."

So the user in 'Insidehoop.com' copied my work, before I created the article "Atlas the Barbary lion versus the Bengal tiger of Simla" on the 30th of January. Eventually, I was told about Insidehoop.com, so I mentioned in the talk page that actually, it is my work, and that the user of 'Insidehoop.com' apparently copied my work, and that I did not copy it from Insidehoop.com, so please, do not delete it.

Thank you, Leo1pard (talk) 16:08, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Why sections like 'Roar' should be considered relevant
The article, or indeed, the popular topic of "Tiger versus lion" is more than just about fights between the predators, either in captivity or in the wild, but also other comparisons or contrasts, like in temperament or cranial capacity. If comparisons of their roars should be considered irrelevant, then should other comparisons, like in temperament or cranial capacities, also be considered irrelevant?

That said, if anyone can add information about the frequency of roars of male tigers and tigresses, and mention that they can have paralyzing effects on victims, if their frequencies are higher than those of lions, like I mentioned that a lion's roar is (much) louder than that of a tiger, then I would welcome it.

Regards, Leo1pard (talk) 17:59, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Re-arranging Scientific theories and facts
In my opinion, this article looks awkward with faulty scientific theories posted after reports which suggest that there is something wrong with some of the scientific theories, like the one that the tiger would always beat the lion. A thing is, in Science, you form a theory, then test it, and if it does not match reality, then the theory is to be considered invalid, so I would like to post the scientific theories before the actual reports. What do you think? Leo1pard (talk) 14:35, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Can you always guarantee reliable information about the weights or sizes of lions and tigers?
I would say no, because, from my perspective, I am an editor who has to deal with a lot of literature on both cats, including occasionally conflicting literature on, for example, whether or not the Barbary lion was bigger than the Cape of Southern African lion, or the Siberian tiger was bigger than the Bengal tiger, in captivity or the wilderness. One consequence of this is that I sometimes change what I put in. For example, I put in the record of 200 kg for a Manchurian tigress, before admitting that there were issues, especially as Heptner and Sludskii (1972) admitted the possibility of exaggeration, and I put a record of nearly 360 cm, in total for a Katanga lion (this is the same reference as those for the wild Bengal tiger weighing 388.7 kg, and the captive Siberian tiger weighing 465 kg, barring additional references), before using other sources to say that this was unusual for a lion. Indeed, if determining which populations or subspecies of lions and tigers were the biggest of their respective species itself is not so easy, then how complicated would the issue of determining which lions were bigger than those of tigers, or vice-versa, be?

Leo1pard (talk) 04:50, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

More information on fights in the wilderness between Asiatic lions and tigers
It is mentioned that Asiatic lions co-existed with Bengal tigers in the Indian Subcontinent, and Caspian tigers to the west of the Subcontinent, with references, however, information on wild fights between Asiatic lions and those tigers is limited, compared to fights between captive lions and tigers, ... Can more information of conflicts between Asiatic lions and Bengal tigers, and those between Asiatic lions and Caspian tigers, be found? Leo1pard (talk) 06:56, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Now I have some, but for the issue of the Asiatic lion versus the Caspian tiger, so far, I have a 15th-century Persian book which suggests that they clashed in Mesopotamia or present-day Iraq, and a journal about the former attacking the Siberian tiger, but not like the direct records of the former clashing with the Indian tiger, as in the Bengal tiger, which I find interesting, considering that they appear to have coexisted here and there at least in the 19th century, which is when those records of fights in India were published. As in, if there are records of fights between Asiatic lions and tigers in India during the 19th century, then are there none for say, Iraq and the Asian part of Turkey in the same century? Leo1pard (talk) 15:35, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I did read that legend about why the Indochinese country of Cambodia has a martial art named after the lion, that is L-bukkatao (ល្បុក្កតោ, Pounding a lion), but so far, reliable references   that I have do not support the notion of the Asiatic lion occurring in Indochina or the Far East, let alone coexist or compete with the tigers over there, such as the Indochinese one.

Leo1pard (talk) 08:35, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Trouble for the wild tiger
I have noticed that more than one author disputed the record weight of 388.7 kg for the Bengal tiger in the wilderness. Leo1pard (talk) 06:59, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Bergmann's rule
If Bergmann's rule was applicable to all situations, then the Barbary and Cape -Southern African lions of the temperate parts of Africa, (modern) Eurasian lions of Central Asia, the Caucasus and Europe, and (prehistoric) Eurasian cave lions should have been the biggest lions, and the Caspian -Siberian   and prehistoric tigers in the northern parts of the tiger's range should have been the biggest tigers, but you can see how questionable this is, right? Leo1pard (talk) 04:41, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Why I welcome even unconfirmed reports here
I welcome User:Thalassophoneus's recent contribution regarding a Siberian tiger supposedly weighing 384 kg, because there are doubts regarding even records that had been seen as being reliable, such as 388.7 kg for a wild Bengal tiger. Leo1pard (talk) 13:48, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Though I did read a self-contradictory source on Siberian tigers, and that is one that I would not accept. Leo1pard (talk) 16:00, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Height at the shoulder
The Bengal and Siberian tigers do appear to be the tallest tigers at the shoulder, but Mitra (2005) said that the Asiatic lion is slightly taller than the Bengal tiger. Generally male Bengal tigers are reported to measure 90 to 110 cm, and Indian lions 107 - 120 cm. Leo1pard (talk) 16:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

As for the issue of African lions being over 120 cm, and perhaps consequently taller than tigers, let me look at that. Leo1pard (talk) 15:34, 29 January 2018 (UTC)