User talk:Midnight Gardener

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Thank you Angry Christian (talk) 00:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

You Deserve This
Seriously dude, thanks for keeping your cool. Good job in there. InfoNation101 |  talk  | 02:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks man. Angry Christian (talk) 02:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You're becoming quite the editor. Keep it up and I'm sure you will receive a lot more of these.  InfoNation101  |  talk  | 02:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

To you, does it seem the talk page is getting really off topic for Expelled? I've been trying to follow what's going on, but more additions pop up then I can read. BTW, you're doing well keeping everything cool in there. Thanks for putting in that effort. InfoNation101 |  talk  | 19:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * A couple of issues - 1) there are so many conversations on the talk page I can only pay attention to a couple. I can't wrap my arms around the whole article so I take it one slice at a time. 2) This is a very weird article to edit.  As Felonious Monk, Dave souza and others have pointed out it's more than a single movie, this ties in with the whole ID movement.  So on one hand we're talking about a movie, on the other we're talking about a movement.  That complicates matters and makes it ripe for disagreements.  The fact that the movie is such a lying sack of empty claims even makes it that much more challenging.  Saying "Ben Stein is a lying sack of shit" is not exactly NPOV, but all the reliable sources pretty much say that, both those involved in the "debate" and the mainstream media.  For example as of yesterday Stein is still claiming Sternberg was fired from his "job", look at Sternberg's website Sternberg himself shows he is still a volunteer at the Smithsonian, so does the Smithsonian website.  And Sternberg was NEVER a Smithsonian employee, he never had a job there.  Writing an article about a serial liar is not easy.  So...It's a complicated subject that doesn't lend itself well to easy editing.  That said I don't think the article is awful or anything and I think for the most part the disagreements between editors is not something we cannot overcome.  And I'm talking about the reasonable well intentioned editors, not the wingnuts.  I have no idea if this answers your question :-) Angry Christian (talk) 19:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yea, that answers my question. It is the wingnuts that seem to be loading the page full of everything else and what not.  If they just took 10 minutes to read the archives and previous posts so much discussion would be gotten rid of.  Also, I'm a hard core creationist (in whatever form you would like to interpret that), but for crying out loud I go to church to learn about that, and to school to learn the rest.  I wish I could start a "creationists - shut your mouth and listen" movement.  Ben Stein has only added to why creationists or IDists are pissed on.  There are plenty of evolutionists that have religion, and plenty of creationists that embrace science.  We're all just trying to figure this out, but some seem to forget that.  So they go and make a movie about how they are suppressed and hated.  Stein was an activist for many years and he knows how heated some debates can get, but for some reason he decides to ignore that when it comes to his belief in God.  Sorry.  Little rant.  It's just bothering me how people move further and further into their personal corner instead of trying to understand what the other party believes.  Cheers.   InfoNation101  |  talk  | 19:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I hear you and you bring up a good point, not all creationists are anti-science and for that matter many many Christians are opposed to the ID movement and claims. Next time a religionist goes on about why we should teach ID in science class and not stifle free speech ask them if they also feel we should teach evolution in bible study :-)  I'm with you, the best place to learn about creation is in church and science class is the best place to learn science.  There has been some discussion about the Wedge Document. If you have not read it yet, and the DIs response, you might find it to be pretty interesting.  Angry Christian (talk) 19:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous. The Wedge Document, I believe, was created by people that are very unsure of their own faith so they feel that they have to push it on other people. The United States was not founded upon Christian ideals. The Forefathers were Deists who believed in Natural right, but the IDists would deny that to the end so I don't find a reason to tell anyone. Now I feel like starting a forum to bring together all the religious people that disagree with the whole ID movement. I think that there has been too much regression, and not enough mutual understanding. That really needs to be brought back before any progress can be made on the front. Question about your addition from unanimous to largely. It looks like it was changed back almost immediately, but from your stats 89% criticize the movie. To me it seems that your edit was more appropriate, but I don't figure it would do any good to bring it up on the talk page. InfoNation101 |  talk  | 20:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

You and I are on the same page with this stuff for sure. "unanimous to largely" I don't think I made that edit, I saw two others making/reverting that one. The 89% thing (now 90%) on the talk page is in relation to the number of negative reviews collection at Rotten Tomatoes  When I wrote it there was 29 reviews and today there are 30 so I updated the numbers on the talk page. So far 90% are clearly negative (27 our ot 30). Angry Christian (talk) 20:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I see what I did. Someone reverted back to your edit and I saw your name. Just didn't put two and two together. Well, I'll dive in and see if there is anything I can do. It's almost to the point that we should make a FAQ page for Expelled, and require that everyone who hasn't been there before read it before they post. Maybe that would help out with so many redundant posts. Cheers. InfoNation101 |  talk  | 20:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply
I'm headed out the door, and only had time to skim the start of what you said. The only useful thing I have to add is that I'm a he :) - Guettarda is the name of my favourite genus of trees (I'm a plant geek). But I will be back this evening.  Guettarda (talk) 16:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, dude! I raise palm trees from seed, we'll have to chat sometime.  Angry Christian (talk) 16:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hate to barge in but I also grow palms from seed and I'd love to hear what region you are in and what kinds you've got going. And many articles could benefit from seed and seedling pics if you have a camera.Mmcknight4 (talk) 05:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Barging in is good. I'm in zone 8 and I grow (common names) Chinese Windmills, California palm, Pindo palm, Mediterranean palm, and Sabal Texana and Minor to name a few.  Med palm is the one that will grow multiple trunks (very slowly) I also have some Mexican Blue palms in pots which are iffy in zone 8 and I have several Brazillian Wine palms in 45 gallon pots (that need to go in the ground within the next 2 years).  You're growing those for your grandkids because they are extreemly slow growing (and rare).  They can bring $10,000 (or 4 times that amount) when they reach a height of 15-20 feet or so.  The oldest one in my area is only 13 years old.  Windmill palms grow very fast once they're established (1-1.5 feet per year).  They're naitive to the Himalayas so they can take cold and they like water.  The California palms grow extreemly fast from seed.  Trouble is often when you buy a California palm chances are you're buying a Mexican palm which do great in Mexico (or California) but the fronds will burn/die when it freezes)though the trunk will still live.  They are very ugly in zone 8.  Good point about taking some photos and adding them to the articles.  Maybe I can do that this week.  Angry Christian (talk) 14:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Becomes something of an addiction, doesn't it? The ones you mention are Trachycarpus fortunei, Washingtonia filifera, Butia capitata, Chamaerops, Sabal minor, Brahea armata and, I think Moriche Palm is the Brazilian Wine Palm though some call B. capitata by that common name (which is the inherent problem with using them as titles here). Almost all could use aerial root (if any), trunk, crown, entire plant, petiole, leaf, flower and fruit pics. Are you ordering seed or collecting it? And are you familiar with the Point of Inquiry podcast? Take it easy.Mmcknight4 (talk) 23:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Addiction? Last year I had close to 250 trees, straps, seedlings.  I realized it's a Chilean Wine palm and not Brazillian, I had been reading a travel brochure earlier and when I typed that out something seemed funny.  Anyhow, I have questions for you and pics to post.  I'll get back in a bit.  Angry Christian (talk) 02:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I can relate - if I had the space, I would be growing palms. Instead I'm forced to put together virtual collections :) Guettarda (talk) 13:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Mmcknight4, I figured out how to upload pictures so when I get time I'll figure out the formatting and start adding some to articles. I recently took some fantastic photos of 15 or so Windmill flowers just prior to blooming.  I'm not familiar with the podcast you mentioned, what's the scoop?  Most of my palms flower each year but they have yet to be pollinated so I still order seeds online which I've had mixed results with.  My Med palm is flowering now and I think I can get some good shots of that soon.  What zone are you in and what do you grow?  Guettarda, what zone are you in and what do you grow other than guettarda?  Love the link and I wish I could grow stuff that tropical in my yard.  I'd be happy if I could keep a Queen or Bismark in my yard but they simply cannot tollerate the cold here.  Angry Christian (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * As far as uploading pics go, I'm not sure if to commons or directly to wikipedia is preferred, nor do I know which of the "best practices" licenses is actually the best practice. I would have guessed that a public domain choice would be best but I thought I came across a conversation suggesting the "GNU Free Documentation license" might be more helpful somehow.  I cant say for sure.  Im in Tampa where we get a below-freezing night every other year, give or take, so I'm in the same boat as you, restricted to what the climate will support, having, of course, a little more latitude in choice.  Ive got a couple Livistona species, Queens, Bismarckias, Foxtails, Phoenix reclinata, Phoenix canariensis, Phoenix roebelenii‎, Rhapis excelsa, Paurotis palm, Adonidias, Alexander palms, both Washingtonias in some numbers and a handful of exotic stuff which I only have a few of.  That said, I'm only a couple years in so maybe 40 - 60 percent have only given me two to four undivided eophyll straps.  Some of the earlier stuff is starting to produce pinnately divided leaves with 4 - 8 pinnae; many are just sprouting.  Basically a shitload of seedlings in various stages of youth.  And there are, unfortunately, plenty that are so picky that I cant keep them alive here.  Ive gotten seeds online which wouldnt sprout so I ultimately started finding reproducing plants in the landscape and collecting by hand.  The podcast I mentioned is an offshoot of the Center for Inquiry and centers on, what seems to be the core of your editing interests, the "clash" of science and religion, or, perhaps, reason and unreason.  The usual suspects: Dawkins, Hitchens, Sam Harris, Dennett, lots of evolutionary scientist, astrophysicists, etc, just what you would think.  Even Behe came on for an interview to do the old "x is so complicated it could not possibly blah, blah".  When my dad was in Libya for his co-op back in the day he said when he told his arab counterparts he wasn't a believer they said "Then who makes the rain?".  And when I look at Wiki talk pages for this stuff, the discussions with these characters seems so painful I'm not at all tempted to join.  I cant tell whether I should advise you to spare yourself the headache or congratulate your patience.  Since I'm ranting anyway, I'll say that podcasts seem underutilized by many.  They arent all a couple guys in the garage or whatever talking about pop culture.  There are some very interesting free podcasts which I subscribe to and listen to most of. NPR has a podcast called Intelligence Squared featuring Oxford style debates, the stated purpose of which is something along the lines of "raising the level of public debate about the most important issues".  Titles include "Is America too damn religious?", "Is spreading democracy in the middle east a bad idea?" "Is aid to Africa doing more harm than good?" "Is Russia becoming our enemy again?" "Better more surveillance than another 9/11" "Should we welcome undocumented immigrants?" "Global warming is not a crisis" "Is it time to end affirmative action?" "Should America be the world's policeman?".  The speakers for each side are always very good; i recommend it.  There's one called Astronomy cast which is usually pretty interesting. This  was one of my tougher days, squirrels, I think.  Each little white stick is a shoot, I lost a couple hundred.  To add insult to injury something came and ate the peanut-butter of the trap but didn't set it off. I figured you would be sympathetic. Mmcknight4 (talk) 03:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I never answered your question because I don't know what zone I'm in (whatever central OK is) and kept forgetting to try to figure it out (Sabal palmettos can survive the winter here apparently, though I don't know how they would tolerate the kind of ice storms we had last year). I only grow houseplants (and aquarium plants, lots of those) - no yard. Guettarda (talk) 21:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Central OK? You're a hillbilly!  Heck we're probably related and yeah you're in a colder zone than I am.  Sabal would do well there and so would a T. fortunei but neither would do well without a yard :-)  Oops, and I just realized I have not responded to Mmcknight4 yet!  More for tonight.  Midnight Gardener (talk) 21:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not from there. I'm from here, actually.

Guettarda you are probably in zone 7a, look here Midnight Gardener (talk) 22:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, 7a. It was fun driving to Michigan a week ago and seeing it go from late Spring to early Spring.  The dogwoods were great in Missouri, and the redbud was in its prime in southern Indiana.  Guettarda (talk) 22:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Awesome!
I really hope you keep your friendly editing style and awesome spontaneity as you continue on Wikipedia. You see, there are two completely orthogonal aspects to a person's editing of Wikipedia:
 * 1) Motives, ranging from being article-driven to agenda-driven.
 * 2) Style, ranging from combative to collaborative.

Most editors move along these axes, and don't fall into one set type, but very roughly we have these stereotypical categories:
 * 1) Blatant trolls: agenda-driven and combative. These need to be banned on sight, and usually are.
 * 2) Civil POV-pushers: agenda-driven but collaborative. These guys will insist and insist on the same changes, always politely, always nicely, but articles suffer because of them. Wikipedia has no good way of dealing with these guys.

NS
E-mail me. &#0149;Jim 62 sch&#0149; dissera! 18:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Defenders of the Wiki: article-driven and combative. They have the best intentions for Wikipedia, but they turn the Wiki into a battleground, so I have mixed feelings about them, and when you happen to disagree with them, it's not fun. And finally,
 * 2) Exemplary Wikipedians: article-driven and collaborative, which is where we find people like you.

Best wishes, Merzul (talk) 00:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you kindly, Merzul. Angry Christian (talk) 02:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

comments
I apologize for my impertinence and overreaction as well. When I first saw the contentious debate on the page I thought it would be interesting to join in, but after second thought I realized the possible ramification of being embroided into this kind of scuffle. =P Happy editing! Chimeric Glider (talk) 18:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and no worries at all. Yeah I've experienced root canals that more less painful than that talk page at times :-) Angry Christian (talk) 14:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Apologies - Expelled talk page.
I tend to get heated when it comes to controversial issues. If your comment really was sincere and not sarcasm, I apologize for reacting the way I did. And I realize it made me look like a huge prick. Thanks Joe3472 (talk) 19:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Not to worry my friend. I did not intend to sound pissy and you seemed sincere in asking why we would put this in the article so instead of trying to be sarcastic I tried to illustrate all the reasons I thought it would/could belong in the article.  Perhaps in my attempt to not to sound sarcastic I came off quite the opposite.  That's the limitation of using text as a medium to have a discussion.  I am far more coherent over beer or coffee as typing my ideas is not my strong suit. :-) Angry Christian (talk) 20:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Your Username
Hello Angry Christian! I was wondering if you could give us the story behind your username--if there is one. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 05:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is not much of one. I saw the name in use on a blog I read every now and then and thought it was amusing.  Not very original, huh?  I've had 4 or 5 people ask me about it lately and I've actually been thinking about changing it to something else.  I haven't figured out how to do that yet.  I was thinking "Ben Stein's Liver" but I doubt I'd be away with it :-)  Maybe "Word Mangler"  I'll come up with something soon.  Angry Christian (talk) 14:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

If you're interested, see Changing username. Guettarda (talk) 14:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes very interested, thanks! Angry Christian (talk) 14:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the explanation, AC. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 06:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I just requested it be changed to "Midnight Gardener" which actually has a story to it. Angry Christian (talk) 15:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It would seem my transformation is nealy complete! Midnight Gardener (talk) 22:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Midnight Gardener? Hmm... not bad... they should put you on some username suggestions panel. Angry Christian was quite nice to begin with. This one sounds less uhm angry ;) Still, very nice, congratulations, Merzul (talk) 22:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I wanted Infidel Castro but that one was taken, or it was red and could not be used. I actually have some friends and we call ourselves "midnight gardeners" so this one makes sense, at least to me :-) Midnight Gardener (talk) 22:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Ben Stien's Liver would have been rather amusing. Sweet new name! Saksjn (talk) 01:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Wise choice. The old name caused some confusion, at least to me. Nick Graves (talk) 14:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, nice name Midnight Gardener. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 03:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you should have given us a transition period during which you called yourself "Angry Gardener". Or possibly "Midnight Christian"...Doc  Tropics  06:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah Ben Stein's Liver almost got the nod. :-) Midnight Gardener (talk) 14:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

"Thanks Talk for doing the heavy lifting."
I hadn't realised that I'd earned this nickname. Am I really that loquacious? I wonder if it is possible to have "Talk" as an official nick -- would certainly confuse the natives (so I suspect not). ;| HrafnTalkStalk 15:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Too funny. Good lord man if I could get a dime for every typo/error I make I'd retire in a year! :-) Angry Christian (talk) 15:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * And if anyone changes their nice nic to "talk" it should probably be me :-) Angry Christian (talk) 15:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Better to change your "nice" to talk than your 'nasty' I suppose. ;) HrafnTalkStalk 15:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Holy shit, see what I mean? Angry Christian (talk) 15:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is wikipedia devoted to debunking "Expelled" and doing so without a mere mention of the numerous sardonic and anti-religious statements made by proponents for the Theory of Evolution? Tricked into the interviews or not, Dawkins and his like-thinkers spoke from the heart; attacking the belief in God, which was held by "childish" people such as the likes of Sir Isaac Newton and Galileo. For me personally, I have no problem accepting "Natural Selection", but the challenge has always been who was the "Uncaused Cause"? If not who, but "proteins on crystals"? Fine, but who provided the crystals and the proteins? Wotring3 (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "but who provided the crystals and the proteins?" According to leading ID theorist Michael Behe those could have been put there by space aliens.  I have my doubts.  Angry Christian (talk) 21:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed I have the same doubts, which leads us back to the "Ultimate" question that theologians, philosophers and scientists have wrestled with since we started writing on animals skins or chiseling on cave walls, "How in the world, or - more precisely - in the universe did we get here?" The issue of ID is not about proselytizing "Right-winged" Christians in public schools. It's about considering all possibilities concerning our existence and purpose. If we merely are born, live and die, then why in the world should we allow defective humans to exist? Why not kill our weak and old as the rest of the animal kingdom does? Why not pursue Eugenics as Sanger suggested or more horrifically as Hitler did? It sure would help with the overpopulation issues and the planet's limited resources such as food, water and oil. My hypothesis is that a "Creator" imbued me with a set of "Moral Absolutes". The same Creator that Jefferson spoke of in the Declaration of Independence and the same one that Newton and Galileo and others articulated. Absent the restrictions placed on us by the Creator to not steal, not kill, not covet, etc why else would should I abhor cleansing the species of undesirables? Natural Selection? AMEN! Wotring3 (talk) 23:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks again and just to be clear, I have no desire whatsoever to indulge in this conversation. Cheers! Midnight Gardener (talk) 23:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's not go debating evolution vs. ID here, we won't get any where. I don't think any of us are really going to be convinced one way or another. Thankfully most of us have "agreed to disagree" and moved on to writing articles. Saksjn (talk) 01:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Moved a most interesting perspective to here Midnight Gardener (talk) 21:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Have this
Thank you sir. But..I don't think you and I fight, constantly or otherwise, we simply had one brief skirmish was back in early Expelled days :-) Midnight Gardener (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes a toe is just a toe
Nope toe=toe -- toe the line. Sorry :) HrafnTalkStalk 18:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Damn! Midnight Gardener (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Who?
Regarding Richard Weikart you wrote: "PT has sliced and diced his book far more thoroughly than the Alvos review." Who is PT? Paper45tee (talk) 19:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

PT = Pandas Thumb = www.pandasthumb.org I'll look around and see if I still have it book marked but they have written about his book more than once. Midnight Gardener (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

From Darwin to Hitler, or not? [http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/06/from-darwin-to-1.html From Darwin to Hitler, or not? Part II] [http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/10/from-darwin-to-2.html From Darwin to Hitler, or Not? Part 3] Darwin, Marx and Bad Scholarship Just to name a few Midnight Gardener (talk) 04:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

hey
It's been over a year since you last heard from me. I realized recently I said something stupid to you. You asked me about my guitars at one point and i made a very very dumb response. Back then I had only been playing for about a year and knew almost nothing about guitars. I read that on my talk page and laughed. Here's the educated response. I play a squire telecastor through a fender frontman 212r amp. I use a boss super overdrive and a DOD stereo flanger pedal. On the acoustic side I play a Jasmine (sub brand of Takamine). Since then I've been also picked up bass and the Irish tin whistle. Anyways, greetings from an old wikifriend. How have you been lately? Saksjn (talk) 17:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

CZ 452 pic
What version of the 452 is that? I want to use it in the CZ 452 article (it's a great little pic), but I don't know where to add it in. Faceless Enemy (talk) 17:15, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

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