User talk:Pepperbeast/Archives/2017/November

Re Gavari edits
Dear Pepperbeast,

Do appreciate your interest and help on Gavari page, but have to disagree strongly with your elimination of the background section. Gavari really cannot be understood or appreciated without it. It is a totally unique tradition in India - only practiced by one small sub-population of Bhils in one isolated section of the country = and half of its dramas are about Mewar history and their role in its survival. Even movie pages are allowed to show the context of a film and this theater and its surprising history are far more important. Would be glad to discuss if you still have reservations. Eklingdas (talk) 16:46, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

PepperbeastOnce more on this - I have been watching Gavari for nearly 30 years and there is just no way to understand its roots or themes or characters without the Bhil/Mewar history. 93% of India's Bhils have never heard of Gavari and most townsfolk in the Mewar region don't know anything about it either so the Bhil kids are bullied about its primitive foolishness in school. Since Gavari has been an entirely oral tradition and most Bhils today remain unlettered, most of the writing about this tradition has been by urban outsiders who usually only characterize it here as "merrymaking" by lazy tribals and a lot of gov school teachers here call the Bhil kids bhilura, which is equivalent to the N-word. This ignorance and prejudice make them ashamed of their tribal roots and since orthodox Hindu histories only speak of the Rajput's glory and call the Bhils at best "faithful servants" if they mention them at all. It's important that Bhil youth understand their history and the meaning behind Gavari or they will increasingly shun the whole amazing tradition and it will continue to die. Wikipedia has the power to bring Gavari's and their own real background to light, and believe me, they truly both need that support right now.

So just as you can't describe Catholic rituals without speaking about Christ's life (re Mass, baptism, the Stations of the Cross, etc.) you can't explain the Mewari Bhils' Gavari ceremonies without speaking a bit about their own unique history. Hope you understand the importance of this for so many reasons. It's really a life or death matter for a culture on the brink. Eklingdas (talk) 03:48, 5 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Maybe you should have a look at articles like Stations of the Cross]. In fact, the article doesn't contain a complete history of the life of Christ or even of the Via Dolorosa. It just links to those articles and only repeats the absolute most relevant bits.  Likewise, the Gavari article should not try to explain the whole history of Mewar and the Bhil; rather, it should link to Mewar  and Bhil.    Pepper Beast    (talk)  05:41, 5 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Understood re Stations, but there is substantial history cited there and since it refers to our Western "Christian civilization" the background church history is pretty vernacular knowledge by now. Indigenous cultures don't have that luxury in general and as mentioned the Gavari phenomena only arose among a very small subset of Bhils. So the Bhil page is not a useful explanatory link in this regard and the Mewar history is largely drawn from upper caste accounts that glorify the Kshatriya role and totally marginalize the infra-caste Bhils. Until India finds its own Howard Zinn, there are only small corners like this where the true history can be suggested. Please do let it ride for now - it's really not harming anything and it is organically related to Gavari culture at every level. Eklingdas (talk) 08:30, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Or you could just work on improving the Mewar and Bhil articles. Seriously, you need to put the information where it belongs.  The Gavari article has multiple issues, and this should be one of the easiest to fix.    Pepper Beast    (talk)  09:30, 6 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Before we get into this again, a major new issue has just arisen - you or someone using your handle has gone through the entire Gavari image list and randomly claimed over a dozen are "stolen scanned images" and marked them for deletion - all without citing a shred of evidence. And since I personally know most of the photographers/uploaders, their integrity and their photos, am taking this quite personally. What is going on here? Was that really done by you and if so, for gods sake why? Eklingdas (talk) 13:14, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I reported "your" images because I don't believe you are entitled to use them. All four accounts were created at pretty much the same time, and all claim to be uploading their "own work", all of which is pictures of the very topic you are writing about, and many of the images appear to be scanned from books or magazines.  So, I think you are impersonating Haresh Agneya, Ryuichi Fukuhara and Kathy Arlyn Sokol.  I also don't believe that you are David Kubiak, even though you uploaded a bunch of his images claiming "own work". Stop uploading material that isn't yours and the problem will go away.   Pepper Beast    (talk)  19:57, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * You also appear to have directly copied chunks of text from gavari.info.  Pepper Beast    (talk)  20:00, 6 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Don't know what started this storm of distrust, but all the pictures were taken by the folks who uploaded them as a little more research on your part could have verified - here is Fukuhara-san and Sri Agneya and my humble self and Kathy is my wife, an ardent Gavari fan and also a talented photographer. None of the photos have ever been print published before except in Harish's book, which I wrote the intro for. The images were uploaded to the Commons at approximately the same time because we're all working on this project together and since there were no usable Wiki pictures we all agreed to contribute. And the chunks of text from Gavari.info were also authored by me since I was their first webmaster. In other words, you're dealing with a bunch of dedicated folks who really care about this topic and all the people it affects. If you had questions about any of this, why didn't you just ask me rather than going ballistic with all these deletion requests? If you still don't believe me, I can put you in personal touch with any of the people mentioned above, so the next step is up to you. Eklingdas (talk) 06:00, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Shrug. I'm happy to be wrong, here.  I'm sure the image owners are capable of hopping on Mediawiki and identifying themselves.     Pepper Beast    (talk)  20:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Merging Phytomedicine --> Herbalism
Hi Pepperbeast. Could you give your thoughts on this merge proposal please? Thanks. --Zefr (talk) 14:05, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Varna (Hinduism)
You reverted edit on above article, where I listed the 4 varnas alphabetically. You comment that there is a hierarchy, and that the list should be sorted accordingly. Please explain of what sort this hierarchy is. Where did you get your idea from? T om ea s y T C 16:45, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It isn't an idea of mine, and it isn't POV. The Varna system *is* a hierarchy of social classes, with priests (Brahmans) at the top and workers (Shudras) at the bottom.  If you really need it spelled out, there are lots of refs available.  This discussion belongs on the Varna talk page, not here.

Pepper Beast   (talk)  19:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
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Christianity and Islam
Did you want to add sources to that section? You didn't leave an edit summary so I removed it under WP:V unsourced content can be removed at any time. It looks like it might be WP:OR and unsourced too, so I don't really htink it should be restored without a source. Seraphim System ( talk ) 00:56, 12 November 2017 (UTC)