User talk:Proserpine

Buffy edits
Hello, Prosperpine. Thanks for all your contributions to the Buffy articles, you have a keen eye. However, I do question the "Created by" and "Last appearances" edits you've made recently. Are the writers of episodes which introduce characters really their creators, especially in a show like Buffy where Joss reigns such tight creative control? Surely "introduced by" is not the same thing as created by. (For example, no one cites Stephen Moffat as having created Jack Harkness, who is Russell T Davies' creation.) If we start counting the introducing writers, why aren't we counting the directors and the original actors as similar players in the "contruction" of the character? Anyway, my point it, it's largely unnecessary: the first appearance section links to the episode where they first appeared (and thus, the relevant production factors) without the OR and assumption it would require to cite Matt Kiene and Joe Reinkemeyer as having created Oz.

The other thing is the "last appearance" section, a left-over from time on Wikipedia when these articles were constructed around fannish tidbits and not real-world perspectives which make them of a better quality. As fictional characters never really have final appearances, the general consensus is they're best left blank for modern characters whose franchises are still open. Especially now for Buffy and Angel where canonical continuations always leave it open for Oz or Cordelia for example to return again. The importance of these later appearances gets mentioned in the prose of the article, as should the final televised appearances (for example, "You're Welcome" and After the Fall in the case of Cordy). With these characters, the "last appearance" field is only a "most recent appearance" field. Do you get what I mean? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

Oh, and re: your username, have you read The Garden of Proserpine? ~ZytheTalk to me! 17:44, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Swinburne's an interesting one. You should read TS Eliot's article on Swinburne if you haven't already.


 * As for the infobox thing: you're right. But alas, the television medium is a more tricky than the comic book one, we'd agree. Character creation really is an organic process from writer-artist with comics, but is it so with executive producer-episode writer? Would episode writer-episode director not be the closest approximate to the comic book model of character creation? With Buffy, Willow and say, Dawn - we KNOW that they are created by Joss Whedon. We KNOW that David Greenwalt *and* Joss Whedon created Doyle. However, with Lorne, Groo and Anya, we don't - this is why it's best not to mention the creator at all, because to do so would be our own inference (original research). Infoboxes need not be (allow me to Wildean) tirelessly subordinate to accuracy - they are best kept brief, pretty, and short. Clutter looks horrible, which is a greater sin than not specifying the exact mechanics of Lorne's empathic powers.


 * Details can flourish and be explored in the prose, where it would be atrocious not to spell out that "Chosen" is where Anya last appeared. In fact, it would be just the same not to point out that was Faith's last portrayal (to the knowledge of many) on-screen. However, the definitiveness of it is questionable need we bring in the pedantry of her being in Season Eight too, and then perhaps appearing in a role-playing game here or a video game there should one be deemed canonical. So, I took the liberty of removing the "last appearance" field from the infobox because I think (looking through the edit histories of three other Buffy contributors with good histories) there would be consensus for that. We can ask on the WikiProject if you'd like to know this more with certainty. If you look at these fine Buffy articles: Wesley Wyndam-Pryce and Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer), a mix of inline references and prose mentions illustrate the character's final and most recent appearances with sufficient economy.


 * How do you feel about all of this? Get back to me.~ZytheTalk to me! 20:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you about the Cordy article. I really want to get the Willow and Illyria ones up to shape next. And Riley, only having a handful of appearances and a lot of reception press (mostly negative), is a good candidate for a GA article. It would be great to work together on one. We are in agreement on the creator then - it is indeed OR to assume Joss Whedon's creatorship on every single character, yes. This is why I propose in cases where creatorship is ambiguous, the space be left blank. The remaining examples could all do with citations (for example, characters like Dawn and Fred who might not at first glance appear to be Joss' brainchildren.)~ZytheTalk to me! 21:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

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