User talk:Rhsatrhs

Hello Richard, welcome to Wikipedia.

I noticed your question at Talk:E-mail. The information at Verifiability might be useful in answering it.

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Angela 01:30, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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Steve Kelley
Hi, Rhsatrhs -- regarding Steve Kelley at List of Dartmouth College alumni, the article in question (what you get when you click Steve Kelley) is definitely not about the cartoonist you're citing. I'm not disputing that the Steve Kelley of the New Orleans Times-Picayune is a Dartmouth graduate, but that individual has no Wikipedia article; Steve Kelley, an unrelated Senator from Minnesota, does have a Wikipedia article, and it does not mention anything about being a cartoonist or being an alum; indeed, it states:
 * Kelley received his B.A. from Williams College and his J.D. from the Columbia Law School.

Feel free to write an article about Steve Kelley (cartoonist), but until an article exists, he shouldn't be listed at List of Dartmouth College alumni. Dylan 20:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, generally, lists of material like this should have linked articles -- it's sort of a notability barrier, because the tacitly understood title of the article is "List of notable Dartmouth alumni" -- it's not an alumni catalog of every alum ever -- see Lists of people:


 * For example, list of Christians doesn't include your neighbour, because she's not notable for her Christianity, she doesn't have a Wikipedia article, and she may never have. However, it might well include St. Peter.


 * The problem is, you could find supporting citations for unnotable people - just go to The Dartmouth and they're sure to mention a student and his/her class year, which functions as a supporting source, but doesn't mean that that person deserves a place on the list. You see what I mean?


 * Obviously, this Steve Kelley (and I don't know anything about him) is more notable than just a run-of-the-mill Dartmouth student, but I think we should nevertheless keep in mind that certain line of who should and who should not be included. My recommendation would be to read WP:BIO and decide whether he's notable enough for an article; if yes, go ahead and write it, but if not, then he probably should have neither his own article nor a spot on the list. Dylan 02:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Lotus Link
Rhsathrs, I made an error in reverting the link to the lotus sucks page. I saw the word "sucks" and pressed the revert too quickly. I did not do so with any intention of removing that particular link. I just now went to the link and found the page to be largely useless but I am not involved in this page and if you guys reach consensus that you want it on the page then I am fine with that. FYI, my system did not flag any spyware per se although it did place a 30 day tracking cookie and throw a popup at me. Neverthless, I did move too quickly and I apologize. I can assure you I will be more careful. JB Evans  01:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I did not make the original deletion. That was done from an IP account with which I am not affiliated. I never suggested it held spyware.  JB Evans   01:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Lotus Notes
You said:
 * I reverted your edit. You are incorrect when you say that multi-platform support is recent. Notes has been multi-platform for almost its entire 20+ year history. Early clients were DOS, Windows. Mac was added in 1993. OS/2 PM was added in either 1991 or 1993 -- I honestly don't recall. X Windows (SCO Open Desktop Unix) was added around 1996. Obviously many of these platforms were dropped permanently, and even Mac has not been supported in all versions, but the underlying cross-platform GUI layer in the software has remained in the code all the time. The Linux client was recently added, and Mac was only recently resuscitated after a long period of neglect(and there are still key features missing on the Mac, no matter what IBM says). The Linux client was enabled by adding SWT as a target for the existing multi-platform GUI layer. In the Notes 8 "standard" client now in beta, all the supported platforms will be using the SWT target, but the old multi-platform layer will still remain in place so that the "basic" version of the client will be using the native Windows target.

Like I said, all of this is irrelevant to what was being explained, I.e., why is notes so different from other email clients. Notes is not just different from Windows clients - it is entirely different from any Unix, Linux or Mac client. It is preposterous to say that any of Notes' unique features are there because of its heritage of suporting multiple systems. All of the examples in the article - such as calling a mail a memo - and other examples as well (e.g., the Notes-specific email addresses) have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not X Windows support has been added in 1996 (as you said). In fact, email has been a long tradition - as much as two decades - in Unix before this 1996 date. Unix had its standard of mail addresses (a simplification of which was later adopted in the entire Internet), its own terminologies, its own file forms. The fact is that the first non-Microsoft client for Notes was first released while most of Notes' philosophy, terminology, and ideosynchrasies, were already in place. None of these have anything to do, and were never influenced by, notes "multi-system-ness", or any Unix, Mac or Linux influence.

Most insulting, for me, was the reference to Linux. In fact, until this year, the only Linux client available for Notes was a "hack" that ran the MS-Windows version using the Wine emulator. Lotus notes has been in the last decade a disaster for Linux users, forcing some of us to switch to Windows. Nothing in Lotus Notes even remotely resembles any Linux tradition, Linux UI or Linux terminology. Even the latest Java version, while it runs on Linux, doesn't run very smoothly (e.g., it doesn't work well with certain window managers). Notes is one of the least Linux-like software that I know.

So I think you should revert back to my change. Lotus Notes' different from other applications have nothing to do with Linux, Unix or Mac - it only happened because of the two reasons I left in the text: 1. Note's long history (so basically Notes was first written when email had no accepted standards, UI and terminology in the world) and 2. Note's backward compatibility, staying with its old ways and not switching to newer standards and practices.

Nyh 10:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You said:


 * Point taken regarding the given examples failing to demonstrate the fact stated that cross-platform compatibility contributed to usability problems with Notes. But the solution is to give better examples, not to strike the statement, because it is a valid statement. Regarding Linux, I respectfully disagree. IBM could have just thrown in the towel years ago, and made the product Windows only and made it conform to Windows UI conventions, but they didn't. They may not have moved fast enough to satisfy you and others of the Linux faithful, but they kept the cross-platform layer in the code at least in part in order to keep the option open for supporting Linux when it achieved sufficient usage in their customer base to justify the effort, and that makes the mention valid in this context. As for the difficulties you've had with WINE, well... IBM never claimed to support it, so yeah it was frustrating, but you can't really blame IBM for the problems. Blame them for not being aggressive enough in their support of client-side Linux, in not getting the Notes port to Linux done sooner, and I would agree in principle, but I think that the architecture that they've arrived at for their Linux support today through the use of SWT is far better than what they could have done five years ago; and had they done the port earlier they might have ended up saddled with an inferior architecture for a long time into the future, because once it's done it's really hard for them to make major changes.

No, no, no. The section we're discussing is labeled How Notes differs from other email clients. In this section your expected to explain Notes' unique features, and why this situation happened. Working on multiple platforms is neither a unique feature, nor is it an explanation for any of those unique features, as I explained, so the statement should indeed be stricken out completely.

You say that cross-platform-compatibility contributed to usability problem with Notes, and frankly, I simply don't understand why. Can you give an example? How are any of the examples in this section (or any complaint from the "Lotus Notes Sucks" web page, or whatever) related to the fact that several years after Notes was already popular it was ported to the Mac, or whatever? The cross-platform layer in the code which you mention may explain one small point - that the Notes widgets look slightly different from typical Windows widgets, perhaps. However, no Notes user that I know of was ever bothered by this issue - tiny compared to the other huge differences between Notes' UI and terminology and the current accepted standards (and nothing in these accepted standards are Windows-specific, by the way).

In any case, anything you say about the last few years - like the support of Linux - is irrelevant to the section in point, because the differences between Notes and other email clients are long rooted in older versions; nothing in the way Lotus Notes currently looks like can be said to be caused by changes did for it to support Linux.

Nyh 11:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Dartmouth College FAC
I've renominated Dartmouth College as a featured article candidate following a day of editing. I know you've helped out a lot in the article, so I'd appreciate your input at the discussion. Dylan 03:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for expanding the IBM history section at IBM
I agree that the most notable and important achievements of the history of IBM should be listed in the article IBM. Andries (talk) 23:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

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Socha vs the hockey player you deleted
Rhsathhs, now that you've reinstated Socha on the Nashua page, are you going to restore that deletion of the hockey player? I don't really care if he's put back in, but his deletion certainly appeared snarky and tit-for-tat. Just wondering...JordanSealy (talk) 11:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

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