User talk:Roger Arguile

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Historic Name
If you read it as it was written:

The ProtestantEpiscopal Church in the United States of America, which has only recently dropped the word Protestant from its title, separated itself from the Church of England in 1789, having been established in the United States in 1607.

The United States did not exist in 1607, but nobody has questioned the modern usage in that instance, inspit of it being in a "historical section".

It WOULD be correct to say that Episcopal Church in the United States of America was established in here in 1607. It would NOT be correct to say that the Prayer Book is still used in The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America.

This section of the article is about the Prayer Book's development in the USA for use in the Church that I am a member of: The Episcopal Church in the United States of America. The 1979 PrayerBook in not used in the C of E, The Church of Ireland, or The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America. No Church by that name exists at present.

The Prayer Book is, however, used everyday by the Episcopal Church in the United States of America.

I hope that my reasoning is acceptable. SECisek 13:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Gregory Dix
Thanks for the clarification on the Dix article. How is the Offertory Pelagian, however, since those who offer it are baptized members of the Christian community, and therefore have been washed of original sin? I think the exact quote would make the article even better? Evan Donovan 15:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Welcome, & a tip or two
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! I see you've been doing a lot of edits, but many of them are just a single word or a repositioning of a wikilink ( ]] ). If you register as a regular User you can mark such edits as "minor", which helps other editors to follow your contributions.

Actually, if you're just altering one thing at a time, but are unsure as to how it will appear on the page, or if you want to test whether a wikilink you have made is viable, it's far better to use the "Show preview" button; then you can group several changes together and save them all at once. Please could you also get into the habit of summarising your changes (again, to help other editors), using the "Edit Summary" box? Thanks. SiGarb | Talk 15:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Am I being Blocked?
I confess that I have not fully understood the system but have made a number of contributions. I now find that on this computer only I am unable to get through. If this is the case, it would be courteous to tell me. I accept the above comment, but am not too happy that I seem to be unable to make any further contributions or even get to wikipedia. (This attempt took some time!) Roger Arguile 20.15 Matcvh 26th (UTC)
 * I wouldn't have though that you were being blocked, unless you have made any more copyvio or committed other unpardonable offenses; looking at your recent contributions I don't see anything particularly controversial (unless you didn't log in and have made some anonymous edits). If you have been blocked you should have been warned first. Perhaps you are not the only person to use that computer to accesss Wikipedia? So it may be that its address has been blocked because of persistant vandalism by someone else. Otherwise I'd just put it down to one of the infinite, ineffable, inexplicable technical frustrations of computerdom and the internet in general! ;-) SiGarb | Talk 10:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ruth Kelly
Hi. I have reverted the second of your two edits to Ruth Kelly. It was really just a comment and was not encyclopaedic. The article itself is not the appropriate place for such comments. But you could add them to the talk page if you would prefer. Frelke 19:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Your message
Thanks for your message on my talk page - I have made the edit you requested. How splendid of you to ask me to do it and to explain why, and not simply to do it yourself! I am so impressed by that that I can't resist. I think she is devout, and have some personal knowledge of that, although I know that doesn't count here. But she is, as you say, undoubtedly practising, and so I have replaced devout with practising.

I agree with you that we must always be vigilant to strive for neutral point of view here (not elsewhere, of course!) but I am not sure that that means that, particularly when covering politicians and political controversy, points of view cannot be referred to, so long as they are balanced and the overall coverage is neutral. Hard to achieve, I know.

Your other points are fascinating! All Catholics are expected to be obedient, but no-one, of course, is expected to conform, such is our fallen nature. No-one leads a perfect Catholic life but all are expected to try. I think, however, that this does not preclude disagreement. Indeed, obedience is most difficult and therefore perhaps most admirable (if you value obedience) when it is obedience to rules with which one does not agree.

You say "the argument about the relationship between religiously informed conscience and liberal views is not one that should permeate an article on a comparatively ephemeral figure." However, (and I know we disagree about this), I think it is a matter of objective fact that Ruth Kelly has been particularly dogged by this controversy and it is not, therefore, inappropriate that it should be referred to.

I am interested that you think that anti-Catholicism is pervasive in England. Of course, it was once actually part of the law of the land and undoubtedly pervasive. I think that now, however, Catholicism has become much more mainstream in English Christianity (for demographic reasons) and, at the same time, England has become increasingly secular. The result, in my observation at least, is that anti-Catholicism has largely faded away, and been replaced with a generalised anti-clericalism - perhaps I should say, anti-religion.

I know that is is often said, as you do, that "the liberal consensus is hugely intolerant of other views". I don't think the liberal consensus is any less tolerant than any other consensus and, because of the nature of liberalism, probably more so. That is not to say that liberals cannot be intolerant. But I don't think it is fair to say they are more so than others.

I'm not sure what you mean by Ruth Kelly's right of conscience. No-one has suggested that she isn't entitled to hold any view or to practise any religion whatsoever. Her right of conscience, or freedom of conscience, is unchallenged. The question is whether her views are compatible with her ministerial responsibilities. That is a question which I think it is right to identify, although I personally am not interested in debating it, because it is a matter in which I have no stake, and no say.

Sincerely, Chelseaboy 17:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion
Hello! I noticed that you have been a contributor to articles on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion. You may be interested in checking out a new WikiProject - WikiProject Anglicanism. Please consider signing up and participating in this collaborative effort to improve and expand Anglican-related articles! Cheers! Fishhead64 22:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Greetings
Dear Roger Arguile First some tips.

(1) Never leave messages on somebody's user page. It might not get seen. Leave messages on talk pages. This triggers an alert. In the standard view it generates a gaudy orange box at the top of the recipient's page, whichever page he is viewing.

(2) Always sign your talk posts - on users' talk pages or on articles' talk pages - with four tildes ( ~ ) as this generates a signature with a date-stamp and makes it easier to reply. There should be a button for signatures third from the right above the edit box, it has a fragment of copperplate (ish) writing. Click edit in the top right hand corner of this message to see, then click cancel to return to this.

(3)(Obviously don't do this for your edits to articles).

(4) Some people (myself included) have a special link which you click to generate a new talk topic. This creates a new section at the bottom of the last topic with the standard section header ( == Header == ). This is useful for long talk pages. Or long article pages come to that. Otherwise edit the last talk post, click the button (in the standard set) fourth from the left along the top, it has an outsized capital A. Remember to make sure that you correct the edit summary so it does not look like you are simply editing an old message.

(5) Ect (ekt) is easier to say than etc (e-tuh-kuh). Hence the spelling which I borrow from Molesworth, "as any fule kno". (I am a fule in that sense)

Phew... the topic:

(As a courtesy to your status whilst keeping due respect for Apostolicae Curae I will eschew the common practice of using Catholic to mean Roman Catholic and will use the terms Romans, Anglicans ect.)
 * Loosely speaking you are right. However, the word Liturgy is used by for instance the Orthodox to mean the Mass. No one was confused by my usage.

This was in a section entitled Vatican II (more or less) and dealing with the reforms to the Roman Rite in the context of an article on the Liturgical Movement. The Liturgical Movement was a western phenomenon. To my knowledge it had no effect at all on the Orthodox and had but a passing effect on the Eastern Rite Catholics who use a liturgy indistinguishable from the Orthodox. As I understand so far as practice was concerned, the Anglicans and Lutherans were merely caught in the Roman wake. With the exception of the Protestant observers to the Consilium (a topic that swiftly generates heat at the expense of light among soi-disant traditionalists) there was no input from non-Romans in the liturgical reforms. There were of course eminent Anglican liturgists such as Dix and Archdale King but the movement was Roman. It took its life from reinvigorated continental monasteries, it aimed at the information and reformation of the Roman laity (e.g. the efforts of Giuseppe Sarto when he was Parish Priest) and its programmes for reform (when they arose - the fathers of the movement did not see reform as the aim at the movement's birth) were directed to the Roman authorities.
 * I would reserve my ire for the blatant POV articles on a whole host of entries, not least those on mdoern political figures and controversies.

I am not angry. Edit summmaries force us to be succinct. We may appear curt even if we want to be courteous. (Caution: simply saying "No to the previous edit" could easily be misconstrued absent some substatial argument). I did not make this edit and this edit to move to a neutral point of view but to make the section accurate. I repeat: this is an article on a movement that was exclusively western and which took very little bearing from western non-Romans (that anyone would admit to). Mass is the term for the "eucharistic liturgy" (which latter term, if you'll forgive me, savours of the lecture theatre not the sanctuary) in this Western Roman context and has been since the time of Ambrose at least. It is also commonly understood (albeit sometimes as crudly as "what them Kaffeelicks do", perhaps). Why use two obviously foreign words totalling seven syllables and 18 letters when you have one four letter monosyllable which tells the reader as much as he or she needs?


 * In the Roman rite, weddings are normally conducted in the context of the Mass. The same is true of funerals. confirmations, ordinations etc.

I think "funeral" is misplaced in that list as funerals per se are not sacraments. Your argument presupposes (or so it appears to me) that only the Eucharist is Liturgy. This is not the Roman understanding, hence Mediator Dei and Sacrosanctum Concilium deal with the divine office and the sacraments as well as the Mass. (MD ss.22 & 37, SC ss.7&90, the Breviary is cited as an authority on liturgy in SC.47). Pius XII and the Council Fathers just assumed that there was more to the Liturgy than the Mass. Otherwise one cannot make sense of what they say. Granted you are an Anglican not a Roman but the Liturgical Movement was a Roman phenomenon and Vatican II a Roman event.


 * The Tridentine Breviary was not said by a congregation.

False. Holy Week is the obvious counter example pre 1950 at any rate. If that is a special case, why did the monks of Solesmes bother to print chants for the office throughout the year in the Liber Usualis if it was't usual for the laity? (Often the rubrics were printed in the vernacular, which would not be the case if they were destined for use by the Clergy alone). Again I think you are led astray by your unspoken assumption (as it appears) that the liturgy has to be out loud among a congregation.


 * Baptisms were, it is true, conducted separately, but my point about the use of the word Liturgy remains.

What point would that be? That the orthodox don't use the term Mass? (Not relevant here). That "nobody was confused"? (7x18 "Eucharistic liturgy" is not less confusing than "Mass"). What?


 * However, to avoid repetition I have made a small amendment to your correction.

So all this is because of a point about style? In the sentence "(t)he Latin Tridentine Mass remained the form of Mass for the Catholic Church in the West until the Second Vatican Council" I don't feel a problem with repetition as the emphasis falls on "Latin" and then on "Tridentine" (to be precise on Lat- and -dent-). It then falls on "form". The questions run as follows. "Which form of Mass is that?" The Tridentine. Remind me of the most significant feature?" It was in Latin. And what was so important about it? It remained the form in force until Vatican II. The word Mass could be excluded and not replaced without doing violence to the sense.

I did start drafting a whole new paragraph at the beginning of the "Vatican II" section to cope with that horribly tendentious next sentence (in brackets). I gave up because I did not want to waste any more time on this futile project and I did not want to get into a debate on the talk page. I thought my edit summary was clear. I am sorry it was not.--Stroika 22:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding attitudes of certain users
Hi there! We don't work on like articles, but I notice you've stumbled into the Jensen. Welcome to a wider understanding of the wiki community. I believe you've correctly identified many of the defining characteristics of this fellow when you were writing what might be construed as an ironic message on his talk page today. Don't feel alone, or without allies in this specific matter. I suspect you'll see considerable talk and illuminating comments as you continue to interact with him. He claims to be (and might actually be) a well-published professor of history at a California university. That said, his temperment often seems more like that of college student than college instructor. He has high edits, but his article edit counts should be divided by three for a more accurate reading (pushes 3RR envelope at every opportunity). As a wikipedian, my observations are that he tends to bully users with harsh and pejorative language, ignore rough consensus, and pushes for self-held positions in spite of citation which refutes. I might suggest you stand your ground on article talk pages and point out his tactics as he applies them. Applying NPOV tags to sections will draw other concerned page watchers to assist you in edit conflicts. All of this IMHO. Try to assume good faith. BusterD 22:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

FDR
Would you be able to add a citation for the latest addition to the FDR Article? Thanks, Sam 21:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Church architecture
''No doubt, but one has to be careful, in making assumptions about vandalism. The removal of the first para on Church architecture was no doubt peremptory but the para itself could be argued to be a little pompous Roger Arguile 14:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)''


 * Hi Roger,


 * Sorry for the lateness of the response, but because you posted the message on my user page I never received a notification of the message. I took the liberty of moving the message to my talk page.


 * I am sorry too if I reverted a good faith edit, I do attempt to be careful, and if in doubt I leave the article as is for someone more knowledgeable on the topic to intervene. Of course, I do make mistakes from time to time.


 * There were a few things that I noticed in this edit:
 * The edit was anonymous (IP address, not user account).
 * The text was not resolved. The first paragraph heading was  Church art Strike-through text  which showed in the article as Church art Strike-through text
 * The east/west swap is a frequent vandalism technique to evade detection.


 * These three points convinced me that it was vandalism.


 * Once more, I apologise for any assumption of malice.


 * Regards
 * LittleOldMe 17:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Always willing to help users with the Jensen
He's enormously well read, so I rarely argue on his merits. Usually he's trying to bait a meta wiki discussion; these days I refuse to step into his arena. He means well; he's just used to being correct, even when incorrect. At least he's not a medical doctor. By the way, what does "haut en bas admonition" mean in this context? My French is beyond poor but I'm always interested in useful terminology. Remember to reply on my talk page, not my user page (I moved your thanks to the correct location). I'm glad you're not letting a ripe apple or two spoil your wikipresence. BusterD 20:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

St. Paul
Rev. Roger, thank you for your contributions to the St. Paul page. Many of the things you removed were only allowed to linger by me because previously I had been in an edit conflict with a certain editor and as a compromise I could only do so much (you should have seen it before). I am glad to see it get better. Lostcaesar 22:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC) Thanks. I hope to do some more. I am not a Pauline scholar of any seriousness, but I would like, conflicts permitting, to allow some air into the article. It may be asking for trouble but something on current contgroversies would be useful. I have had a look at the archived discussion, but only briefly. Keep in touch Roger Arguile 22:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

My primary objection to your edits on the Paul of Tarsus page is that you appear to be excluding the work of well-recognized scholars who don't happen to have limited themselves to the study of the bible. I find this to be more than a little limiting, considering the importance of both the subject and the ramifications of the debate at hand. Mike Ely 23:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that Jefferson was a scholar? You have not noted my point qbout the fact that great minds are not worth reading when they delve into areas in which they have no competance.Please tell me why those named and deleted should be listened to. I would dispute with you that most of those named have any particular competance in the field. I have reinstated Harnack. However I will look at the material again. (The trouble with the previous version was that it did not include the views of mainstream scholars - including those who did not limit themselves to the Bible - and was written and edited by a number of people who had strong views but not always the background knowledge. I have in mind the most important person is all of this: the person logging on to find reliable mainstream information about the subject and some reference to credible dissenting voices. Jefferson and Nietsche don't qualify.) Roger Arguile 11:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

St. Paul, Vandalism, and America
You say the article is long. I am in the process of shortening it. You also say that you are American. Forgive me but on this side of the Atlantic we think of America as having a north and a south and as have more than a dozen flags, consisting as it does not numerous nation states. I am glad that you are proud to be a member of one of those nation states. Meanwhile I will attempt to fix your problem with SP Roger Arguile 22:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm moving your "talk" into your talk page here. First of all. ALWAYS put your communications in the talk page. (it's the tab next to the user page tab on top that says discussion) I see someone has notified you about this before. Your putting talks on userpage may be viewed as vandalism, therefore I have to give you a warning as follows: Please do not edit the user pages of other contributors without their approval or consent. It may be seen as vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please visit the sandbox.
 * I tagged the article St. Paul as verylong during stub sorting. A 60k page is certainly not a stub. Instead it qualifies as very long. Please review WP:LENGTH for further information.
 * Also, your comment on America is inappropriate and disrespectful to the citizens of the United States of America and other countries in the American continent. Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Feureau 17:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Face-smile-big.svg|left|60px|]]

Please stop. If you continue to make personal attacks on other people, you will be blocked for disruption. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Thank you. This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Feureau 10:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Re English Reformation
Roger, useful changes.

However, could you just confirm the number in this sentence:

In the autumn of 1536 there was a great muster, reckoned to be up to 40,00 in number, at Horncastle in Lincolnshire

Should that be 4,000, or 40,000? David Underdown 09:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Leaving messages
Please do not leave people messages on their User pages, their Talk page is the place for messages. e.g. User_talk:Feureau. Also please not that we require editors to work together constructively and civily. Contintually placing messages on a users page rather than talk can be considered vandalism. Thanks --pgk 11:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Re my above comment and your response. "Perhaps teasing is not allowed" - I'm not saying that but one person's teasing is another person's harassment or attack, it seems quite clear that User:Feureau has not taken it in the way you intended so continuing that seems to be just adding fuel to the fire, as I said we expect people to work together constructively. As in the real world that means you have to take account of different people's temperaments and deal with them appropriately. FWIW I am an admin and indeed it is one of the requests by Feureau to enact a block which prompted this. I am not at this stage intending to block you or anyone else nor am I directly threatening to do such. My experience is that in such situations it can indeed be born of a misunderstanding and is often better resolved by the individuals concerned sorting it out between themselves, blocking can just breed resentment. --pgk 13:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you need to read about administrators, admins are the same as any other users with a few extra buttons to enable them to do certain maintenance tasks and block those who are disrupting the building of the encyclopedia. --pgk 17:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Common Worship
You fail to specify your objections to my edits. I am happy to defend their accuracy, providing I know what I am supposed to be defending them against. I prefer to conduct such discussions on the talk pages of the relevant articles (so that they can be seen by all potentially interested parties who may wish to contribute, rather than being a private conversation). I hope we can engage constructively there. Vilĉjo 23:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

On a more general point, it is I'm afraid completely unrealistic to expect every edit, no matter how minor, to be discussed in advance. Even your own edit summary appears to treat the matter as one more of phraseology than of substance. There are aspects of the CW article which really do need addressing, in terms of substance; rest assured that if/when I get around to them I will bring any genuinely substantive issues to the article talk page first. Vilĉjo 01:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Rowan Williams
'an intellectual of considerable powers' ambiguous? If you say so.Roger Arguile 14:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I do, though I confess the ambiguity is no way grave. It left me wondering what powers are meant.  That is, is he an intellectual with great non-intellectual powers (such as good organisational, conciliatory or rhetorical abilities) or is he a man of great intellectual powers?  I assumed the latter was intended, although he clearly does have great abilities that are not specifically intellectual. I realise it's a very minor point - the main reason I edited the paragraph was to correct 'sound byte' to 'soundbite', but the other phrase nagged me.  I very much approve in general of your 'tinkering' by the way.  garik 15:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Timeline of Paul
This timeline shows approximate dates of notable events in Paul's life.
 * (scale is from 20AD to 80 AD) 

How does it look now? I tried to clean it up according to your comments. I think a visual graphic is necessary in the article but I need your help in making the dates right. Please help? MPS 20:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

On Paul
I think there may be a way to work in some discussion of the sources for reconstructing Paul's life. However, the way in which this was done seemed a bit problematic. I prefer to avoid very vague and general comments that just leave the reader hanging. For example, I am not very fond of things like "many scholars point to possibly irreconcilable differences in the sources…". Instead, I prefer to give the two accounts to the reader, and then give sourced commentary by different scholars. That way, the reader can have some substance to make a decision. And, I always favor the original texts speaking for themselves first. So many times, especially in biblical studies, I see scholars inventing supposed conflicts, and then expounding on how difficult and insurmountable these problems are, only so that they can later pat themselves on the back for coming to some authorities decision on the matter (though this usually is in regards to synoptic theories, where scholars bend over backwards to make Matthew alter Mark). That was a bit rambling, but to just state the point, I think you are right to include it, but I think we must be specific and give our readers the credit to be able to understand primary source information unfiltered and judge the commentary by it. Lostcaesar 18:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Let me add that I do respect what you are doing on the article, and I don't mean to get in the way of good faith edits. But I will say that the section in question seems a bit confusing to me, and there is a part of me that says a reader of this article just wanted to know about St. Paul, not about reconciling the sources, but I do agree there is a place for that.  I just think the info could maybe be woven into the telling, rather than to digress self-indulgently, if see what I am saying.  Lostcaesar 20:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well my changes hardly reflect any attempt to undo what you have written. I think you are confusing my edits with another.  My changes, besides very minor cleanup, was to ask for a reference for the claim that Acts and Paul's letters are "impossible" to reconcile, and I slightly reworded the Council of Jerusalem because, in its old wording, it presented James and Peter in an odd way, ignoring the position of leadership of the latter.  Those are my only changes.  Nothing you mentioned on my usepage is about these changes, so I think you are confusing me with another editor, who was working on the page as I was.  In no way did I undo 99.9% of your edits. Lostcaesar 10:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh np Father &mdash; I said a few things on talk if you're interested. Lostcaesar 12:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

St Paul, and "the mythicist position"
Hi! Thanks for the note. While I was pretty unhappy with the last few paragraphs under this section, I thought that the first three seemed viable. I notice you cut all of it, and thought I'd ask here rather than cluttering up the discussion page: was it all unsalvageable, or erroneous? Are there actually no reputable scholars who question Paul's existence? I ask solely out of ignorance. Snickersnee 06:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Resurrection
Regarding your comment on my talk page about the Corinthians reference - I was always given to understand that the 'baptism for the dead' referred to being baptised for Jesus i.e. Jesus was 'the dead' that is being referred to? SparrowsWing 22:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me see what I can dig out for you (may take some time) - until then - more than happy to leave your ref up on the article. I'll add a reply on the article's talk page as well for other editors. SparrowsWing 22:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * RE: I took the reference to the resurrection out because it made it sound as though Paul did not believe in a bodily resurrection. Lostcaesar 11:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Paul on homosexuality
I am sure that there are those, wishing to push an agenda in the Church, who have wild views on Paul and likewise wild interpretations of certain passages. But at the end of the day these views are the fringe of the fringe. They may be discussed in "alternate views of Paul", perhaps, but not in the main section. Judaism condemned homosexual acts. Early Christianity did as well. Paul was a Jew who converted to Christianity - why should his views be any different? Why bend over backwards to render an interpretation of an otherwise clear passage in such a light that it makes people like bishop Sponge feel ok about their sins? I will say that I am sorry if I was insulting with my commentary on the edit page. This is a bit of a sore spot for me. My grandmother is Anglican, and certain changes like this in her Church are one of the reasons that she no longer feels at home there and thus no longer attends mass (and there has been a real effort to push anglo-catholics out of the Episcopal church, which I am sure you know well). But, as I said, these views are still on the fringe, and should only be discussed as so. To treat the matter as a genuine debate is to misunderstand problems within certain theological academic circiles as indicative of the greater world. Lostcaesar 12:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I have amended, rather than deleted your piece. I have changed the bible version to one which is more mainstream. The TNIV is a bi ton a limb.Roger Arguile 13:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

St. Paul's tomb
Thanks for your polite note. When I undid your edit, I thought for some reason that my edit had not actually happened - no edit war was intended! I believe I was rather hasty in being the first to add something about the tomb on St Paul's page, and the current edit is better than mine. I hadn't checked the Basilica page before adding my text, but I disagree that the only page the recent archaeology should be mentioned in on the Basilica page. A tomb is about the remains (once) contained therein at least as much as the building in which it is found. While I respect the sensitivity surrounding this page, I think that the first sighting of his tomb in 1700 years is of great general and specific interest - despite this not being a "news page" - and fully deserves a mention on the St Paul page. best regards Hotlorp 01:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Nihil...
I am afraid Nihil Obstat is no guarantee; whatever the case I believe I said that Brown is controversial, or at least some of what he says. For one he doubts the historicity of the Gospels, which puts him in a very compromising position. As far as his scholarship goes, he is certainly a voice that should be heard, as he is no fool. But from a faith standpoint, he is quite comfortable flirting with heresy, though he knows how to walk that rope. Scholarship aside, I doubt whether anyone's faith was every strengthened from his books, which should be the real measure of a priest. I think the Vatican wanted to prove a point by having him on the Biblical commission – it was an attempt to show the extremely liberal, obviously heretical scholars that an attempt to respect the teachings of the Church is appreciated, even if it at times falls short, and that the Church is wholly unafraid of modern scholarship. Lostcaesar 17:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Nihil Obstat is not determined by the Magisterium. I believe it is determined on a diocesan level.  In other words, it is based on the opinion of one bishop.  Bishops are shepherds and one must be obedient to them - this is very important.  They are, after all, successors to the apostles.  But one of the twelve apostles was a Judas.  An old says is, "keep one eye on your bishop, and one on the pope, and if they say different things, keep both eyes on the pope."  Doubting this historicity of the Gospels is against the teachings of Dei Verbum, a Vatican 2 text, and thus superior to a bishop's nihil obstat. Lostcaesar 17:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Anglicanism COTM
The Anglicanism Collaboration of the Month has been reactivated! Please consider going to the page to either vote for one of the nominated articles, or nominate one yourself. Thanks! Fishhead64 02:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

re:
I hope you had a wonderful Christmas as well. Thanks for all your help on the St. Paul page. God bless. Lostcaesar 20:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Pauline Christianity
Father Roger, I'd be happy to help however I can on that article. Cheers. Lostcaesar 16:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I was disappointed, after your highly informed and stylish editing at English Reformation to see so much discarded here. Your substitution should be included in the complete article, but identified as the church's own take on the matter, casting the very thought itself as "pejorative". --Wetman 13:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Date-linking
Roger, linking complete dates is helpful as it also allows users to choose how dates are displayed to them (see "My preferences") —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Underdown (talk • contribs) 10:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC).


 * It is one where there is slightly contradictory information given, and certainly there's no point jsut linking a year, just a day or just a month. However, if it's a full day month year or month day year it's useful to link in the form nn month year because each registered user can set their preferences to determine how such dates are displayed to them - for instance I always see such linked dates in the form yyyy-mm-dd (being an IT type it makes the most sense to me).  See Manual of Style (dates and numbers) David Underdown 11:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Organisation
Ok. Sorry. The word comes from the latin Organizatio, and normally uses "z" in other languages. Like portuguese (Organização) and spanish (Organización). I just didn't knew this way in english. Thanks for the explanation. --DrLutz 13:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

English Reformation
Please see my comments on your revert of my entry.

--Train guard 21:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note that I have interpolated some comment into your last message, and then made some propositions in a separate message.

--Train guard 11:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

(As your reply is rather long and complex, I will again interpolate in brackets.)

I confess to finding it hard to respond to comments that are, in some cases, no more than unspecific questions.

(On the contrary, they are quite specific. I am asking you to question your attitude.)

I attempted to expand on particular points to which the response has been without substance (One really does not know what to do with expressions like ' For you, perhaps.' They do not belong in this kind of discussion).

(But they do! I don't think that you realise what we are supposed to do. We are meant to be as objective as possible. I'm trying to be, but I don't think that you are. That is NOT an accusation, by the way, I just think that you don't realise it.)

The comments about printing suggest that you have not read the arguments about its contestable impact. Perhaps I was wrong to delete your material but the more I look at the substance of your arguments, the more clear I am that I was in fact right.

(But who are you to say that? Look, I'm not engaged in a historical disputation. My point is to increase the degree of objectivity of the article by presenting historical points of view that readers will find in the historical mainstream, and ought to be aware of. I have a point of view, of course, but I try not to let it colour my contribution. But you seem to have a particular axe to grind.)

I shall attempt to deal with your three points.

a) Whether the article requires wider introductory background is arguable. The wider issues have to be dealt with somewhere, but they apply across the board. This article can be criticised as unfocussed, but the normal WP solution seems to me to be to add more.

(More? How have I added more, other than a few general paragraphs?)

I believe this would be a mistake. Yards could be written about the context.

(But yards were not written. Merely some statements and references for further study.)

You rightly advert to McCulloch. McCulloch begins his work in 1490 and nowhere makes no reference to Marsiglio (or Richard Hunne). I do not say that this is the only way of approaching it but ,frankly, out-of-date scholarship does not help.

(Who says that it is out of date?)

I am sorry to be blunt, but nowhere in what you have written is there any demonstration that you know about the breadth of the material.

(Actually, I do. I have either read or am familiar with most of the writers that you cite. Do not assume things about people that you do not know. I do not assume things about you or your scholarship, only your attitude towards the way this entry should be written.)

b) 'The minds of ordinary people'. You write as if it were easily deducable what such people thought. We have access only to the minds of those who wrote anything down. If anyone has looked at such writings it is Duffy.

(And what about Christopher Hill, Keith Thomas, and Dickens himself, all of whom predate Duffy in this approach?)

As is widely admitted, there is bound to have been a huge number of people whose minds we shall never penetrate. The attempt by such as Collinson, Marsh and others to discover what 'ordinary people' thought has yielded some fruit but not as much as had been once hoped.

(So are you suggesting that we should make no reference whatsoever to popular religion or anticlericalism?)

Whether Dame Julian and Marsiglio were ordinary people I leave you to judge;

(They were cited as examples of the English mystical tradition, not popular religion!)

the Lollards may have been nearer the mark but as some of them served their parish churches it is hard to know what was going on in their minds.

(So ignore them comletely? Is that what you are saying?)

The Riots on St. David's Down in 1549 are some indication of what parishioners thought but since those riots coincided virtually with the East Anglian riots which were not anti-prayer book I find it hard to draw conclusions. Frankly your assertion that there were two levels offers a staggering oversimplification.

(What oversimplification? There were clearly two levels. There was a world removed between what was going on in Henry's mind, and what was going on in the mind of an ordinary man who may have been a lollard or a sceptic. It is all there in historical record. You may have a different interptretation of what it means, but it is objective historical fact. And there should be mention of it.)

c) Your programme of providing constrasting views demands,on a subject as broad as this a huge expansion of the material.

(Why should it? It only needs a mention in a few paragraphs, if that, with references that readers can follow up if they want to. That's what I tried to do.)

But even if it were desirable, can I suggest with respect that on the evidence of knowledge that you have provided, tht you are not the person to do it.

(What knowledge have I provided? I haven't provided any detailed knowledge since this is not an argument about historicity, but the way an introduction should be written, to make things more understandable to the general reader. You don't seem to realise this.)

I have entered the fray on subjects on which I was not widely read - Native Americans (!) for one. I have withdrawn because I do not have the competance.

I am very prepared to deal with detailed assertions and conclusions.

(But that is not what we are arguing about!)

I am not prepared to engage with an unwillingness to engage with the material evidenced by comments like 'Wider in what way?' 'Er,no...' 'How so?' which does not seem to me to belong in serious academic debate.

(Are we taking part in serious academic debate? I think not. We are arguing about how to make the English Reformation explicable to the general reader. All I am saying is that their should be a short introduction, placing what follows in some kind of context; indicating that, for many people, the reformation must also embrace what was going on in the minds of ordinary people; and that the topic is a controversial one inwhich thistorians hold, or have held, contrasting views. All accomplished in a neutral and objective way....or as near as possible. What is so difficult about that?)

Any comments made on WP are to a degree short-hand and requires a willingness to interpret rather than a demand for explication which space does not allow.

(And how much space did I take up?)

You may feel you have offered an olive branch which I have trodden on.

(Why are you personalising this? I don't know you from Adam. The same ought to be true for you. I was just explaining what my motivation was.)

I am sure that the first part can be improved. The trouble is that the background to the Reformation is so huge and disputed (in spite of what you wrote).

(Hang on a minute! That IS what I wrote! God, I'm sounding like Ernie Wise.....)

You say that you have no point of view: is there not an implication in what you write that it had something to do with an emergent literate, thinking class.

(Historians have written that. Readers perhaps ought to be aware of it. I also said that views of the Reformation had been revised by other historians, to stress an inherent conservatism in opular religion. Readers should be aware of that, too.)

I have heard that before but nothing that I have read has convinced me that this had anything to do with it. Printing could be used to spread either catholic or protestant ideas. I happen to think that what signifies is who was in control. I also think that Henry did not know what he was unloosing, but I have not written that because I cannot demonstrate it.

(Fine. But those are personal views. I didn't write personal views.)

But I conclude by repeating that what you have written does not indicate a detailed knowledge of the current literature of the last twenty years.

(Well, if I was taking part in a historical debate, I would have written differently. But I wasn't.)

I may be maligning you, of course.

(That's how it appears to me.)

By all means write something. It is your privilege; but I refer you to the warning on all WP edits. Roger Arguile 12:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer us to co-operate. But you must realise that we seem to be talking at cross purposes. Can you see that?

--Train guard 10:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Look, Roger. I'm not going to prolong this argument. I will shortly place a draft of what I would suggest the introduction ought to be on the article discussion page, and invite comment from you or anyone else.

--Train guard 17:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

American BCP
Can I plead with you to be a little more careful? You've now said that Rite I doesn't have the peace, which it certainly does. I've edited to preserve the substance of your latest change, but please check a little more carefully before deciding to re-edit one more time. Also, each of your edits is very careless about punctuation and spacing. Tb 04:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that the only difference between us is whether the 1789 changes concerned a change in essentials. Given that the revisers said "we don't intend to change anything essential", it doesn't seem a stretch to indicate that they believed it was not essential to preserve the 1662 version of the Eucharistic prayer. (The Church of England also doesn't believe it is essential, since it has readily approved any number of alternatives in the ASB and CW over the years.) "We don't intend to change anything essential" allows for changing almost anything, since nearly everything in the book could hardly be defended as essential. Yes, the American book in 1789 had an explicit oblation, which it got from the Scottish. Clearly the American church did not believe it was essential to lack an oblation. What is the controversy about? Yes, the changes may have been important, but still, your goal seems to be to try and identify *something* negative, and I can't fathom why. Your earlier text made it sound like the revisers were deliberately trying to be deceptive, which I think would be extremely unlikely. *I* am happy *without* all the commentary on what differs from what and when, and I would happily simply delete it and let the section on the US Prayer Book describe the actual US BCP and leave it at that. You seemed to want commentary, and with each revision, you have expanded the commentary. Why? Perhaps a prune is in order? Why is it even *necessary* to start talking about who was opposed to this or that, in such an article? However, you seem to be very insistent that such material is there, and I am simply concerned that, if it is going to be there, it must be NPOV and not constantly trying to make these tendentious claims. Tb 01:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm a little confused what you're getting at by the saints days bit. The 1662 book has a couple dozen red letter days; so does the 1789, 1892, 1928, and 1979 book. What is the difference you are pointing at here? Tb 01:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Many changes at once
Can I beg you to please not keep making so many changes in rapid succession to the same article? It makes it much more difficult to track the history and understand the changes. It would be much more helpful if you would make the changes all at once, instead of many different piecemeal edits. At least, one change per section. Tb 01:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Class and importance
Regards: I wonder ifyou can tell me who decides on quality and importance...
 * I go by the Anglicanism project assessment guidelines in relation to the class of an article, i.e. I classed Liturgical Movement as a B-class. I went for mid-importance (out of low, mid, high and top) from the definition of mid: "Subject fills in more minor details". However, I'm not an expert and this was just my understanding! Please feel free to change the rating if you wish — PMJ 17:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it the article isn't well written, just that it doesn't fit the criteria to be any other class other than B. It can't be FA or GA class by definition (No peer review or nomination) and as you say yourself, it is incomplete so can't be A class. — PMJ 17:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Talking past
Taking in order:

1: Of course Seabury knew that there were differences in the Scottish rite. But Anglicanism does not demand unanimity. The American revisers said "we do not intend to depart in essentials"; one can conclude that, where they did depart, they judged that keeping to the 1662 form was not essential. One part of the 1662 rite is the absence of an oblation. So, they clearly did not think it was essential to omit an oblation the way 1662 did. If the grammar of that sentence is not clear to you, then you really must take a step back and read it carefully.

2: There was no 1786 BCP in America. This was a communion office only, not a BCP, proposed by Seabury as an interim measure. The first American BCP was the 1789 BCP.

3: Of course I know that oblations were controversial. Saying "X is controversial" does not mean "it is essential to omit X." There *were* people who thought it was essential not to have oblations. We can judge then that the 1789 revisers thought those people were wrong, and that it was not an essential matter.

4: Since all the American BCPs are available easily online, perhaps you could check your facts minimally (as I have been doing) before continually inserting new falsehoods into the article.

5: I don't think you really know much about the history here, and as a result you make nearly constant missteps, each of which I find I must correct. Just as we do not find in the main section on the English BCP a long discussion of detailed objections to this or that in the 16th century, we don't need the same thing in the American section on the 18th century.

Tb 18:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Prayer of Oblation
In the context of the 1789 BCP, the term "Prayer of Oblation" does not refer to "which we now offer unto thee", but rather to the following prayer, which Seabury's office places before communion, but which is ommitted in the 1789 BCP:

"Blessed be thou, O Lord God, for ever and ever. Thine, O Lord, is the greatness and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine: think is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all: both riches and honour tome of thee, and of thine own do we give unto thee. Amen."

The words "which we now offer unto thee" are an oblation, but they should not be called a "Prayer of Oblation" to avoid conflation with the actual prayer which was called that (and which was then excluded from the 1789 book). For this reason, I have reverted the phrase "prayer of oblation" and replaced it with just "oblation".

I'm still wondering if you can please explain what you mean by this talk about change in the saints' days? AFAICT, there has been no substantial change in the red-letter days from 1549 to 1979, but lots of piecemeal adding and dropping of this or that.

This talk about the "ancient shape" is really annoying. Let's just say that it's *extremely* controversial, and please drop it? It presumes an understanding of what the "ancient shape" is (hardly agreed). If 1789 were a return to "the ancient shape" it would have the peace, it would not have the prayers of the people after the offertory, it would not have a confession of sin at all.

Can you please quote for me (not in the article) exactly what Perry says about the epiclesis? I have no doubt that the Orthodox rites have an epiclesis, of course, but my question is particularly whether the Scottish ever said they took the epiclesis *from* the Orthodox liturgy. You say "derived from Eastern orthodoxy" which implies to me that the wording comes from there.

Trying again
I am sorry to annoy you. Please be patient.

1) You write as if the 'American revisers' were of one mind. My reading of McGarvey is that there were different views. Seabury, I think, thought it essential to include a Prayer of Oblation. What you have called a prayer of Oblation is, in origin, an offertory prayer which in Seabury rightly precedes the Sursum Corda. What is called a Prayer of Oblation in my understanding follows the words of institution and is largely derived in 1789 from the English 1549 prayer. It includes an invocation which is not the same as that in 1549 where is precedes the words of institution. 'Falsehoods' seems a bit strong. I quote from McGarvey: '...the proposition to add the Prayers of Oblation and Invocation with what follows, received his [Seabury's] hearty support so that its adoption in the House of Bishops was unanimous'. My terminology may be wrong in your eyes but I am I think to be excused your characterisation of my remarks.

2) I understood that the General Convention of 1786 produced what became known as a Proposed Book. It was proposed for use but was soon 'the object of bitter attack'. (McGarvey).

3) The 'Ancient shape' I take from Dix; but never mind.

4) You ask about Perry. 'Bishop Rattray's work on the liturgies of St. James and St. Clement published in 1744, led to the publication, under the direction of the Scottish bishops in 1764 of a text which became the recognised Communion Office until 1911.' What I did not notice is that the words in the Scots version and Seabury's version - ' that they might become the the Body and Blood of thy most dealry beloved Son' were changed to 'that we receiving them according to thy Son our Sviour Jesus' Christ's holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion may be partkakers of his most blessed body and blood'. Perry is, you are right, cautious about the Rattrays's work having come through into the liturgy. 'It seems to me that Falconer (who did the revising) despairing of the attempt to force into English words the Greek of any liturgy, simply endeavoured to express in the most direct manner possible the principle of the normal liturgical invocation.' But Perry's prime target is those who think that 1764 derives much from 1637 (Laud).

5) I think the story of the production of the 1790 book is useful. It shows a willingness on the part of some to act without authority of bishops (Seabury did not approve of this), to alter and omit Creeds, to rewrite Psalms, even to include Unitarian sensitivities. I read in McGarvey that some would have been happy to keep the 1786 Proposed Book in spite of its changes cited above and that Seabury and the southern states were out on a limb for some time. The adherence to 1662 was opposed by liberals and by catholics, each on different sides, as I read it. You seem to feel that none of this should get into the article but you say, wrongly I think, that similar debates are not mentioned in the article: I included the objections of Puritans and Presbyterians, indeed of controversies right up to the English 1928 book. Jut as Joynson Hicks objected to 1928 as popish, so Jarvis in his 'Voice from Connecticut' was making the same complaint against Seabury.

You are right; I am learning my history, and I am grateful for the opportunity, but not all US Episcopalians known to me agree with your interpretation. Roger Arguile 22:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be harsh; edit summaries must always be summary, and cannot be as nice as we want. hence talk pages!

1: I do not really think that they were of one mind, of course. Since Seabury thought an oblation was essential, he cannot have thought that omitting one was essential. Ergo, in this departure, he did not depart from something essential.

2: Proposed books are just that, proposals. This one went down in flames, and stands only for what the American church was actually not willing to permit.

3: Dix is talking about the fourfold shape, but the fourfold shape was there in 1662, as Dix himself insisted. oblations in the Eucharistic prayer may or may not be considered essential by this or that person, but such an oblationary petition is not one of the four "steps" Dix outlines.

4: Nothing here indicates that the epiclesis came from orthodoxy; at most, it shows that the idea of one came there. So I'll change that.

5: We cannot list every change. So we must make an editorial decision to stop listing them at some point. If we want a page on the history of the American prayer book, we could have one, but you are not, I think, in a position to write one. One needs real familiarity with something to do that task, and have studied carefully all the relevant texts. So please, just because in your reading you happen upon what seems like an interesting fact, don't just automatically extend wikipedia with it wherever it might fit. Tb 23:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Reformation.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I have added details about Henry and why he couldn't get an annulment. I was about to add citations when I received your message. What have I rendered less accurate? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it has nothing to do with the English reformation. I have reverted you, and I agree that the high church was a bit off, I couldn;t think of how else to frame it. I would to point out however, that you yourself said that Wikipedia articles are the field of no-one and you do not have the right to just revert someone's work because you personally don't like it. I am open to whatever changes of mine you wish to dispute, but please don't just descend on my talkpage and announce your decision to revert me. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I blanked out the high church reference for you to replace with what you choose. If you really think I omitted important information, put it back, and we'll discuss on the talkpage if I disagree - sound cool? As for the telescoping history... that's the point. We're an encyclopedia, nto a textbook. :) Please don't revert me anymore, I've been adding refs, which surely you must agree are helpful, no? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Dev, Some of what you wrote was wrong! That's why I reverted it. As for 'descending' on your talk page1 Do you live in Australia?

Dix
I don't mean to say that Dix was entirely happy with 1662! My point is that the changes in the American prayer book in 1789 are not relevant to the criticisms he had of 1662 as regards "shape". Whether there is an oblation or not may have been important to Dix, but it was not what he meant by "shape"; and as regards "shape", the 1789 book is identical to 1662.

I'm sorry if you felt stung by "falsehoods"; that refers to saying something which is false, and doesn't imply any malfeasance, and certainly doesn't imply that the error was deliberate. edit summaries are necessary telegraphic, and cannot include too much in the way of apology. Tb 22:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Politeness
I have nothing against politeness, and I did not say anything to the contrary. I have, in fact, found you to be not terribly polite throughout.

If you are so attached to your words that you cannot bear to hear them labelled as false; if you hear a criticism of your words as being a criticism of your person, then you must take a step back. You deserve politeness and respect, but you are not your words, and I do not insult you by criticizing your words or your ideas, and I do not owe you an apology for doing so either. A look at your comments page here shows that you have often trampled on toes, and perhaps you may want to be more careful, before chiding me for saying "falsehood" in response to something you wrote? Tb 18:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Native Americans in the United States article
Hello. I just wanted to tell you that I saw what you wrote at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Native_Americans_in_the_United_States#POV, and that there has clearly been a misunderstanding. When I suggested that you go look at the Pre-Columbian articles, I didn't mean to imply that your contributions to the Native Americans in the United States article in the section about pre-Columbian cultures was unwelcome, I merely wanted to direct you to more information. My reply and the lack of enthusiasm from my fellow editors was not meant to discourage you from expanding the pre-Columbian section of the article. You are more than welcome to do so! I also noticed that you have been here for over three months and have over 1,000 edits, which means that you qualify for a Wikipedia service award. So, allow me to present to you this token of appreciation for your work. Move it onto your user page and display it proudly. As spend more time on Wikipedia and make more edits, you can pick up other service medals as you qualify for them on here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Service_awards You can also display your award in the form of a ribbon or a book, if you like. Take care! Asarelah 17:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

St. Paul
Thanks for your note. I worked out later that the removal of my (fairly minor) edits was "collateral damage" when a block of text got reverted. Rocksong 08:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Since this heading is already here twice, I won't start another one. I'm glad to help out. I have a sneaking suspicion that Christianity-related articles are vandalized considerably more often than other articles- I've gotten used to checking my watchlist whenever I find the time. Thanks for your assistance with this article and with the Pauline Christianity article.--C.Logan 21:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Your comment on my editor review
Hi,

Thank you for your comment on my editor review. I wonder if you would reconsider your position given the responses to your comments which I made on Talk:Pauline Christianity and which can be seen here.

--Richard 16:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: Council of Jerusalem
I can understand your frustration with this article (I've come close to becoming abusive in content disputes myself), but edit-warring as you were doing over this article in the end only gets you kicked off of Wikipedia. May I suggest that if you find yourself butting heads over an article in the future that you follow the suggested steps of conflict resolution on Wikipedia? The first step would be to file a Request for Comment about this article -- which I'm about to do anyway to see if I can't attract some calmer heads to this article. Or to post a request for help at a related WikiProject page, like WikiProject Christianity. -- llywrch 23:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject article rating
I am afraid that article rating is much more of an art than a science. I have been doing it for a while, so you do get a bit of a "feel" for it. It is not really that important, it is simply to help the members of the relevant WikiProjects.

Feel free to re-assess. But the next stage up though is GA, and we cannot rate it GA unless it has been passed at WP:GA. Please nominate it for that, or for a Peer review if you prefer. Ta. --Mais oui! 10:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

English Reformation
I'm certainly not an expert in the subject. What's basically happened is a well-intentioned but inexperienced editor passed it as a GA. The only reason I'm taking an interest in what's going on over there is that I'm got an article waiting for review myself, plus seeing the review process gives me more ideas for article improvement.

Normally the article could be delisted as a GA straight away, but if I take it to the review page like I've done what should happen is that the regulars over there will give it sufficient scrutiny, and come up with a list of what needs to be done similar to say this, that way you will know what improvements need to be made.

A quick glance at the article shows that it's definitely lacking in referencing, and even the existing references aren't cited properly. For example apart from the fourth one, the first six footnotes lack a page number, so anyone wanting to check the information would have to go through the entire book.

I definitely don't think it's ready for GA at this moment, but the review should show you the way forward.  One Night In Hackney 303 14:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Roger, assuming you ahve the references to hand, it might be a good idea to add the ISBN number for each in order to absolutely unambiguously identify the edition used. Could you also try and remember that Wiki style is to put references after any punctuation.  David Underdown 14:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I was particularly thinking of Reformation, which seems to have a multiplicity of editions, according to the Wiki article on it, some with subtitles, some without. David Underdown 16:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Concerning links sometimes there are POV issues, however WP:CONTEXT and WP:DICDEF generally state that only plain English words shouldn't be linked (apart from five other issues which IMHO aren't related to your notice). Thanks for remark anyway. --Brand спойт 15:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Penal Subsitution
Roger Wikipedia rules require us to assume good faith in other editors and politeness so that we do not denigrate them. On the discussion pages for penal substitution you have constantly denigrated other editors' abilities culminating in your highly personalised comments about myself. This is unacceptable. My eyesight does not prevent me from reading articles carefully and it is highly inappropriate for you to seek to undermine me by suggesting that I had not. Deal with the facts and please remove your offensive comments (Be Dave 21:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

Church Times Letter
Completely off-topic, but I saw your letter in the CT last week, and am considering replying (although I may well not, as I haven't got hold of this weeks yet and don't know if I will in time to know whether what I want to say has been covered). Because my reply will probably be critical of your letter, I felt I would prefer to mention it to you beforehand, basically to ensure I don't wrongly criticise you. I think it's best practise to do such before any kind of public criticism, if at all possible. (Please note: I don't know you, I'm not trying to attack you personally, just attack your arguments.)

I don't really feel like this time of night is going to be the best time to write a balanced letter, so I won't give you the full text now. I do want, however, to run a few points past you:

1) Am I right in assuming that you still haven't read PfoT, which you criticise in the article? ***Note added later - I've just realised you didn't explicitly criticise it, but would I be right in assuming that there's an implicit criticism there? ***

2) You seem to take Stott's take on PSA out of context. Stott is pretty clear that Jesus endured God's wrath - what he is eager to say (often taken out of context in quotes from people who haven't actually read the thing in the original, only other people quoting it!) is that this is to be understood within a trinitarian context - something that PfoT is also eager to say.  How do you respond to that?  (Have you read Stott on this?)

3) You refer to Packer using words like metaphor and parable - which I assume was a slip of the pen/keyboard, since I'm not aware that he does. If he does, any quotes would be helpful (esp if you have page numbers so I can look up the context.)  To be honest, I think you're misinterpreting Packer - what he's saying is along the lines of "we can't know all truth about God, but models are a good way of describing what inherently limited knowledge we do have about God" - and he extends it to the whole of God

4) You refer to Sykes referring to Packer talking of PSA as a metaphor - does he justify that in depth anywhere, or just say it in that footnote in "The Story of Atonement"?

This really isn't intended with any malice or anything - I might well do it to anyone who raised the same points you did - I just wouldn't have the chance to get them to respond before I write anything (which might, I suppose, make me less likely to write anything).

Yours in Christ's love, TJ 23:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion and assistance requested on Persecution of early Christians by the Jews
Hi Roger,

I'm interested in your opinion regarding this "new" article which was created by extracting text from the Persecution of Christians article. Please read both the article and the discussion on the Talk Page.

First, the article as it stands now is canted in favor of those who would minimize or altogether dismiss the NT accounts of persecution of Christians by the Jews. It strikes me that this is a minority opinion among Christians although it may be a more consensus opinion among liberal theologians. How then to re-balance the article? The "fact" that early Christians were persecuted by the Jews is so widely accepted in Christian theology that I don't know how to find sources that state this explicitly. Can you help?

Second, there are editors who insist that the Bible is not itself a reliable source. This stance extends even to assertions as to what it says. Thus, the text that says "According to the NT, Christians were peresecuted by the Jews" is being challenged for lack of sourcing. In fact, text that asserted that Jesus predicted Christians would be persecuted by Jews was just recently deleted.

I understand that it is problematic to use the Bible as a source of historical fact. Moreover, it is difficult to use the Bible as a source even for what the Bible itself says since "what the Bible says" is open to interpretation. For example, do the Bible passages in question really mean that Jesus predicted the Christians would be persecuted by the Jews? Seems obvious to me but apparently not so obvious to some other editors.

The problem is that I have found no sources on the Web that make this assertion although many assume it to be true. Can you help in this regard?

Thanks.

--Richard 19:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That's completely ridiculous. The NT is entirely acceptable as long as one makes a note that it is an assertion from the text (as the historicity is disputed). In light of this and other things, I may participate as well, if I can make myself useful. --C.Logan 20:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Your deletion of text at Persecution of Christians by the Jews
Hi Roger,

You deleted this text from Persecution of Christians by the Jews...


 * There is an emerging consensus among liberal theologians that persecution of early Christians by the Jews was far less severe than the accounts of persecution by Jews as related in the New Testament. This, however, remains a minority viewpoint that is not accepted by the mainstream of Christianity.

I accept that there may be problems with the text but I think it should be salvaged instead of simply deleted. I wrote the text and what I was trying to express is that there are some liberal theologians who are minimizing the amount and extent of Christian persecution of the Jews. I am fairly confident that this is a minority viewpoint among Christians as a whole. I also accept that it is unclear what "an emerging consensus among liberal theologians" means. Nonetheless, the opinions of a number of such theologians are quoted in the "Trends in theological assessment" section later in the article.

The deleted text was in the lead section and is meant as a summary of the "Trends in theological assessment" section. Can you help me improve the sentence so that it can be restored to the lead?

Thanks.

--Richard 17:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

R.E. Deletion
Sorry I am relatively new to Wikipedia and I was under the imnpression that I forgot to save my hypothesis on declanthebullbull I respect your wishes that a post of that nature is not encyclopedic or in fact tell you anything that you did not know beforehand and I assure you that I did not know what I was doing and I shall take this as a lesson learned.

Krummy2 08:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Its fine, everyone has flaws in their sense of humour, you dont mind if I move your comment to my Talk page do you?

many thanks: --Krummy2 09:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Definite articles in section headings
Roger, as Garzo tried to explain, it contrary to Wiki style to use grammatical articles at the start of section headings - see WP:MOS. Unfortunately we need to work within this framework as it's the first thing which will get jumped on if you submit it asa Good Article (if you can be bothered after the experience of getting English Reformation through.  David Underdown 13:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree about the policy (particularly in this instance) - I susepct there's a bit of a US influence there. I think you're being a littel harsh on garzo though none of the comments about "mess" appeared to be directed at you, rather at Fred's somewhat untidy edits, which whilst having a kernel of value need tidying by someone each time.  I lack the sources and background to make substantive edits - Garzo probably could work in that direction (and he should at tleast have good access to a University library) but his main interests seem to focus more on the Oriental churches, rather than your focus on the Reformation period.  David Underdown 13:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Onthat particular occasion, they were obviously too busy trying to ensure that the bleeding obvious was fully foot-noted. By-the-by I suspect you would find several users sympathetic to your belief that sometimes referencing here goes a little too far - see user:Geogre, User:Bishonen and their regular correspondents.  David Underdown 14:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Paul, again.
I'm a little disturbed by WikiMC's condescending tone on the Paul talk page. Admittedly, I'd behaved similarly to another user, but this is because the user in question had been extremely disruptive and had moved into the realm of trolling. You, however, don't seem to be acting in any sort of disruptive manner which would warrant such treatment (or rather, I may have missed it if you have). However, I am curious as to what it is that you are holding on to, here? Why do you prefer the article version which you revert to? I've only received explanations from the editors opposed to you, and these explanations were rather vague.--C.Logan 21:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Roger, thanks for your comment on my user talk page. I've replied to you there. Grover cleveland 18:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

BCP
If there are specific problems, then correct them. The previous intro (i.e. before 14/08) probably did assume too much knowledge (it is easy for us to assume that everyone will understand the basic function of prayerbook). Please make sure you put messages on the talk page, not user pages. David Underdown 14:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've restored separate links for Morning and Evening Prayer, I think that carries different connotations to merely saying "for daily prayer", but I'm not absolutely attached to it, and re-structured your new third para, which again semed to repeat itself slightly. David Underdown 15:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

To mention in the lead that later Anglicans "subverted" the prayer book is not NPOV. What are you trying to say? That the 1552 edition was good, right, and proper for all time? I looked over the history of the article and Wassupwestcoast was trying to make the lead sensible to a non-christian audience. Frankly I think he did a pretty good job and I don't understand why we scrapped the lot of it. That said, it is great to collaborate on this. -- SECisek 15:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it interesting that you would speculate how Cranmer would feel today. That isn't really the point here,but do remember that Cranmer disavowed every single reform and assented to Transubstantion in an attempt to avoid the faggots, so it is difficult to say what Cranmer might think today.


 * What is the point here is that the 1549 and the 1552 are just two editions of a book that exists in MANY edition in many different languages. The books are living texts and they have not "subverted" Cranmer's work, quite the contrary, they have built off of it and evovled the books for different audiences in different places at different times.  If you believe this is a bad thing, you could say they subverted the original intent, but again, that isn't NPOV. -- SECisek 15:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me for asking: have you read Diamaid McCulloch;s biography of Cranmer? 1549 and 1552 were part of a project which Cranmer, together with others, conceived. Those who followed in 1559 and 1662 disagreed with some of Cranmer's views. I have no idea what you mean by 'living texts', but the changes made were deliberate underminings of Cranmer's intention. As for Cranmer's recantation, I fall back on McCulloch. I don't think what you say is sustainable. I think you are using the word subvert in a particular sense which I don#t recognise. Roger Arguile 16:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have read McCulloch, in fact I rewrote the Cranmer article and I am guiding it through the FAC as we speak. Your comment might be correctly placed in the section in the 1552 section, but you are taking a strong POV stand to say in the lead that the Prayer Books that we base our faith on are "subversions" (think about the Latin roots of that word: Sub=Beneath, Versions) of the 1552 edition. They weren't out to undermind the book, theological positions had shifted since 1552 and Parker's edition reflect that, just as the Scottish edition and the Restoration edition reflect then current attitudes and understandings. Not subversion, but eveloution.  -- SECisek 16:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The 1559, 1662, and for that matter the 1979 ECUSA editions are not pulled out of thin air. They are based on the editions that came before them and much of the language from Cranmer's "foundational" editions of 1552 and 1549 has been lovingly perserved in the later editions. How do you not see Cranmer's editions as the foundations of every edition that followed. If you think I am "wrong" I will be happy to debate this at the BCP talk page and see where consensus falls. I predict it would fall on my side. -- SECisek 16:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Break through, We may be getting closer to understanding one another now. That is much closer to NPOV. -- SECisek 16:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel either of us are being uncivil. I would never be uncivil to a member of our clergy ;-D I posted that response while you were making your edit and I have retracted it in light of the current edition. We both want this article to be the best it can be. I think we need to determine where it is weak and what needs to be done to it. -- SECisek 16:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Shakespeare : the reference is from Schoenbaum's "Documentary Life" p 59, just about the only book that is 100% free of partisan agenda. "..doe no murther" is entirely Cranmer - all other English version have "shalt not kill", except Wycliffe, who has "shalt not sle". Which does not exclude the well established fact that Shakespeare also draws on the English mystery play tradition in other places. TomHennell 17:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem about the edit - that's what Wikipedia is for. I really should have remembered to insert the MacCulloch reference - but fortunately WSWC remembered the page. It is important in understanding the nature of the Prayer Book, to know how it was actually used in worship; otherwise we discuss the changeing Communion rite, without the context that most worhippers rarely heard it.


 * On Shakespeare, Schoenbaum says: "The services at Holy Trinity; Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer, Baptism and Holy Communion - indeed all the occasions of worship - remained with Shakespeare and echo through the plays" (p 59). The examples he quotes are mainly biblical; i.e. biblical quotations that conform to the the Prayer Book use of the Bishops' Bible, rather than the Geneva Bible usual in Shakeaspeare quotes (e.g. "tale told by and idiot" from "at tale that is told" in the burial service). It is conceivable (but improbable) that Shakespeare had a Bishops' Bible for private use; but familiarity with the Prayer Book is much more likely. TomHennell 00:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I have tracked down a copy of Richmond Noble's book - and summarised it under the heading of Literary Influence. His main point is that Shakespeare usually uses the Geneva Bible, but occasionally the Bibsops' Bible instead; but in the Psalter, consistently the version found in the Psalter associated with Prayer Book services, i.e. the 1540 Great Bible. Moreover - and unlike all other Biblical Books, Shakespeare's Psalter references are evenly spread through the book - suggesting a source in public reading in the course of worship; whereas otherwise, Shakespeare's private reading appears to be strongly skewed towardse the earlier chapters of every book of the Bible TomHennell 00:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Anglican collaboration of the month
Wassupwestcoast 02:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Elizabeth
I really didn't write a single word. I cut and pasted material from other articles elsewhere on WP such as English Reformation Elizabethan Religious Settlement and Act of Supremacy. What in particular are you unhappy with? It needs more citations - I'll grant that. -- SECisek 15:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Citation Templates
Please do not remove citation templates in the intrest trying to "simplify references". The system that WUWC uses is approved, standard, and make getting a GA easier. If you have questions on using them - and we are discouraged from using "ibid" - please drop me a line. -- SECisek 16:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Roger, really nothing ahs been lost. It's all there in the history of the page, and we can go back to it in a trice, if after mature consideration we decide that the alternative system really does not work.  Ibid etc also does not work in this context.  I's fine where you have a final finished edition, that cannot then be edited, but that simply isn't the case here.  Looking at the page in detail, I'm not sure if Harvard will prove to be the best in the long-term, simply because the links produced look too much like wikilinks, and we have a fair amount of article text in parentheses anyway which confuses things, but maybe says something about the general written style in the article? (I don't think you were responsbile for most of them incidentally).  I don't think we can really judge until we have seen the overall effect once everything is completed.  David Underdown 13:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Roger, nobody has been having a bit of "fun" about the citations. I don't like them, either. They have become essential in a GA article, and yes, it is the goal of several of us in the Anglicanism wikiproject to see our top articles reach GA and that means in-line citations with templates. If you will absolutely not learn to use them (which I said myself at one point but later relented) you will have to understand that they are standard and allow those of who want to advance the article to GA to do so. As for the Eng. Ref. article, it has plenty of in-line cites and frankly will probably need more when it come up for GA review. If you "don't feel obliged to obey" the in-line requirement (which like it or not it is) I suggest you work on articles which do not require them yet:


 * De-stub articles to the "Start" class
 * Advance "Start" class articles to "B" class:

You are an important part of the team, but if you "don't have the patience to learn how to use the electronic system", you will hold back GA articles that should pass. It take minutes to learn, please don't give up on this. I reposted this response on the BCP talk page. Best, -- SECisek 17:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

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Paul the Apostle
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