User talk:Shorn again

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Isherwood
With regard to your deletion of a perfectly acceptable compromise, I looked up the reference to which you directed me and modified the WP article accordingly. If you had any responsible editorial curiosity about a musician with an obviously foreign name, you could have done that yourself. Sweetpool50 (talk) 09:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I have been busy working on the article on Damien Lovelock so have not had time to comment on the change you want to make to the description of Mangeot in the Isherwood article. First of all, in an article about Isherwood, the main focus ought to be on him, so a link to Mangeot's article is sufficient. There's a Manual of Style article that covers this sort of thing. On the other hand, he has a foreign name so a brief qualifier such as "naturalised musician" could be in order. I would have preferred simply "the musician". Calling Mangeot a "French-born English musician" draws away the attention, in my view, and can give a wrong impression. Damien Lovelock, for example, could be described as "an English-born Australian singer", and be true to the facts, except that insisting on the accident of his birth in England would give the wrong impression in that case. His parents retained their Australian citizenship and Damien was brought up in Australia from age 1 - his nearest English relations were four generations back. The Grove description of Mangeot as an English musician is their ambiguous shorthand for saying that his working life was passed in England. But what they say under the constraints of space does not need to be used to give a wrong impression on WP. Mangeot was born in France, had his musical education in one of the most impressive French institutions, called his second son by a French name and spoke French in the household (as well as to Isherwood). Calling him English could therefore give the misleading impression that he was taken to England as a child. That's my impression as a working editor, anyway.

I can perhaps suggest a pointer for furthering your interest in André Mangeot the writer. You could take a look at Ancestors Net or FindMyPast; certain families also have an online presence maintained by researchers that give a lot of information. My guess would be that the writer might be a grandson of the musician via either Fowke or Sylvain. Seren Books describes André2 as being "from an Anglo-French family", so if he is in the direct line that's a clue to how they think of themselves. Further back in time, the literary Maturins are described as coming from a family of Huguenot descent, although the connection (like that of Damien Lovelock with his forebears) goes back a long way. Sweetpool50 (talk) 04:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your more detailed thoughts and constructive tone. Let's review further as needed regarding the Isherwood article on the talk page there for broader visibility - perhaps the language used by the younger André and some different phrasing or structure could suggest a way forward. Shorn again (talk) 01:09, 15 July 2020 (UTC)


 * By all means use me as a sounding board for your ideas. In reality, I find Isherwood a rather unsatisfying author. My intervention in his article was chiefly because editors were tending to take his Lions and Shadows as more autobiographical than it was meant to be! Sweetpool50 (talk) 09:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

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