User talk:SilkTork/Archives/Archive 18

Kraków as GA
Thanks for your help in getting this done! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's done? Great. I'll take a look. Thanks for letting me know.  SilkTork  *YES! 20:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

History of Sesame Street
Hi ST, this article has had three (3!) reviews for GA. Is that unprecedented? ;)

Anywho, User:Geometry guy has completed his review, and has stated that it's up to the original reviewer to decide if the changes made after his review are enough for it to pass to GA. That be you, dude! Would you mind looking at it? I appreciate all your assistance. I'm looking forward to moving to the next stage of article development, the peer review/copyedit. Thanks again! --Christine (talk) 04:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Christine. It is not uncommon for several people to be involved/consulted during a review, especially if there is some uncertainty. Some aspects of the GA criteria are open to interpretation - which is why we also have the WP:GAR process.
 * I've had another look, and I feel that the issue regarding broad coverage and use of sources prevents me passing this. I'm also aware that this is a matter of interpretation, and that you disagree with my assessment. I don't wish to press you to do something that you feel would not be right, but I can't in good conscience pass the article feeling the way I do. It's a close call, and another reviewer may pass it with no problems; because of that, rather than hold matters up any longer, I am closing the review as a Fail, and leaving the way open for you to decide what you wish to do next. You may, of course, decide to simply skip GA and go straight for FA. An article doesn't need a GA to be accepted at FA. I mention other options on the GA review.
 * I'm sorry not to be able to help you more with this. I'd much rather Pass an article than Fail one! Good luck.  SilkTork  *YES! 09:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Would like your opinion again
Just wanted to get your thoughts on my latest revisions of this article: User:Ebonyskye/Sandbox. Also, please read my talk page for the last (encouraging) words from the DRV admin, Stifle, for my reasoning, and for what has been added. If you have no objections, I'd like to place this article in main space. I know we went through this already, but I added more info, and I really thought more stuff would be included in the merged version, then it all got removed a bit at a time. So I'm starting over. I've also been re-working the author article on Michelle Belanger to get that one looking more like a respectable author bio. If I recreate the album page, I'll remove redundant info from the author page and clean up the music section to be more balanced and give equal weight to the other albums she co-wrote. Ebonyskye (talk) 20:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that as it stands it would pass an AfD as it doesn't have reliable sources to support notability. What you do with it is your decision, as you have gone down a route that no longer involves me. But I would advise finding some credible reliable source before putting it into mainspace. It doesn't help if you put it out, someone takes it to AfD and it gets deleted. You will then have a much harder time getting it out there a third time. If you put it out there, and it does go to AfD, then don't bring it to my attention, as I would vote against it.
 * Are there no credible mainstream sources at all? I should think that at least one of the main music papers reviewed it. I have a friend who manages local bands in Portsmouth, and he manages to get their locally produced records reviewed by NME and mentioned on BBC Radio 1 just by sending copies to them. Without a review by a credible source people will think that the album is simply not notable. The band themselves will know if they got a review - if you have contact with them get in touch and ask them. The source may not be online, but if it was published, then there'll be a copy in a library somewhere. Good luck!  SilkTork  *YES! 02:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I hadn't considered reviews at all. Probably because another editor seemed to think that was too promotional. They also wanted an online source that could be readily checked. Side-line magazine is a popular music magazine out of Belgium and is distributed worldwide, and they reviewed this album. Another music magazine, Extreme, in Argentina reviewed it as well. I would think both are reliable sources in that they are well established music reviewers and obviously not affiliated with a band from the US. Ebonyskye (talk) 03:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I couldn't find anything on Extreme magazine on a quick search, but I did find Side-Line. I was uncertain at first as it has a low circulation (it helps to be realistic in your description of things - "popular" is not an appropriate description for a narrow focus magazine with a limited circulation!), but after some searching found an academic publication which cited Side-Line, thus giving it an appropriate status as a specialist magazine for electro-goth music. So a review in Side-Line would be acceptable, and could form the basis of an argument to say that the album is of specialist interest, and has been reviewed by one of the notable publications in the field. If you could find another review or significant mention in such a magazine (one that has a credible claim to notability) then I would support moving the article into mainspace, and I would stand by it in an AfD. The review is online:  SilkTork  *YES! 13:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the review in Side-line, which has a rather good sized subscriber base and is distributed in the US, UK, France, Germany and elsewhere, was already posted in the infobox, along with the review from Music Extreme (Argentine). Ebonyskye (talk) 18:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess I'll wait a while before trying for a new album page. I can't find a second magazine that you'll approve of (and I take your silence as a "No"). I've requested my userSandbox be deleted per userreq. Ebonyskye (talk) 06:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Draft Draught
It's not the spelling. Let's say you buy Domestos bleach in the shop. The brand is Domestos, the product is bleach even though it seems like they only do bleach sometimes they are the Domestos brand, not the Domestos Bleach brand. You might hear the Ford car company refer to themselves and by others as Ford Motoring Products dozens of times but they are still just the Ford brand. I can only tell you so many times, go and look at their website. Do they seem to call themselves Guinness or Guinness Draught. I did not say "Go look at a bar tap" or "Go read the national vinters website". I said go look at Guinness brand itself. Then come back and tell us all what it is called. There is a website listing registered Irish companies. If you can't settle I will root it out and find Guinness on it, OK? Sorry for reverting all the edits you made but they were interlaced with this rewording of "It's Guinness Drauight brand". All best, ~ R.T.G 11:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have joined in your mediation request ~ R.T.G 12:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I know you are keen...

 * 

...to keep some form of separation of GA from the overall class ratings; however, there is a relationship. An article that is GA becomes GA class on the ranking scale; as such, at times it can be helpful to look at where an article is on that scale to indicate how close (or far) the article is from being GA class - or just simply to indicate to editors what work needs to be done to generally improve an article. My point is that this particular article is not GA class according to GA criteria, and further, that it needs some work to lift it up from C class, where it more appropriately should be placed for the reasons given above. The aim of the class rankings is the same as FA and GA - to improve the quality of articles by both giving guidance as to what can be done to improve, and to reward the effort put into improving an article by giving a ranking. We maintain the quality of that incentive by maintaining the quality of the whole ranking system from stub up to FA - including GA.  SilkTork  *YES! 22:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * According to which WikiProject? "My point is that this particular article article is not GA class according to GA criteria, and further, that it needs some work to lift it up from C class". Already a confusion! The GA criteria define what is a good article: GA-Class is a matter for WikiProjects. "Lift it from C-Class" according to whom, which WikiProject, whose criteria?
 * Each WikiProject can facilitate article improvement in its own domain. However, over several years, no consistent interaction with encyclopedia-wide content review has emerged, much as a sensible interaction would be welcome. You speak of a ranking system. Whose ranking scale? Which WikiProject has the right to say what C or B class requirements should be in place before an article can be a good article? Many articles come under the scope of several WikiProjects, and some WikiProjects are very small. Should miscellaneous projects and minorities determine Wikipedia-wide standards?


 * There is no such single ranking scale which you seem to believe in: it is a myth created by a widely regarded historical mistake to include GA-Class in the WikiProject assessments. While WikiProjects and GA have similar aims, for GA there are and have always been only the GA criteria, period. Geometry guy 23:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry for such a long response Guy - I have been very busy recently. I don't understand your argument - there seems to be a suggestion that there are clearly defined groups of people here who wish to do different things. I suspect you are dealing with the vestiges of some internal Wiki-politics that most of have no idea about and don't care to. A WikiProject is a meeting point for people to discuss, share and store ideas for how to improve a certain aspect of Wikipedia. It is no more than that. The Projects have no authority, though the members may join together as in a union to collectively push their ideas - this being a consequence of any group of people getting together with similar interests. An appropriate use of the Projects is that a person may go to a WikiProject forum page to get an opinion from other editors experienced in working on articles within that Project's sphere of interest, or may suggest that people work to get consensus on an issue related to that Project's sphere of interest. A person may register their interest in a particular Project so that other editors know they have some knowledge and experience of editing in that field, or they may not. I know people quite active in some Projects who have never put their name on a list, and I have known others to put their name on a list and put a userbox on their page, and then do very little. A WikiProject as such is not actually a body of people - it a meeting place.
 * The notion that somebody owns the ranking system, or even that there should be some form of ownership is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. Any person may review an article and decide it is GA quality. Any person may read an article and decide it is B class quality by the criteria linked to in the appropriate boxes on the talkpage. The criteria being arrived at by consensus of those interested enough to get involved in creating the criteria. As such the GA criteria are no different to any other WikiProject's criteria: the GA criteria were created by a bunch of Wikipedia editors - the History article criteria were created by a bunch of Wikipedia editors. Who ranks the criteria? We all do. I do. Other users do.
 * You may continue to fight that fight within GA quite successfully as you are the main person within GA and highly respected for the work you do there. You are one of the good guys, and you do a bloody good job. I respect your opinion. However, I do not agree with you regarding the placement of GA within the overall article ranking. Unfortunately what that means is that occasionally I will article a view that you do not agree with. I will not do it deliberately to provoke you, and I welcome you also voicing your view so a balance is presented. I somehow doubt, though, that we will agree on this, and my aim is not to change your mind, but I would be uncomfortable suppressing discussion of the ranking system when it appears appropriate to mention it. Regards as always  SilkTork  *YES! 18:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I responded briefly on my talk page (where the discussion was interrupted). I will respond in more depth either here or there in the next few days (let me know if you have a preference): sorry for not being able to respond sooner. Thanks for getting back to me and for your care and thought for the interests of the encyclopedia. Geometry guy 22:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not convinced we need to have a discussion. We have differing views on where and how GA fits into the overall article assessment scheme. I see GA as an article assessment same as the other article assessments. You see it as being different. I'm not that interested in it to make any changes to guidance (as I once tried, and you felt was inappropriate), so we don't need to convince each other of anything. But I will absolutely stand by the view I have (which is widely shared) of GA being part of the overall scheme, and that when appropriate articulating that view in discussions. The only issue we might have is that you disagree with me giving my viewpoint in discussions, and from what I know of you, I don't think that would be the case. I think that this is simply one of those situations where two people have different views on something, but like and respect each other enough for those issues not to be a problem. One of those "We agree to disagree" situations. I feel that it's always healthy for people to have differing views, and to be able to talk them over calmly. However, I'm not THAT interested in where GA fits into the overall article assessment scheme to want to get bogged down in it. My time on Wikipedia is currently very limited! Perhaps when I have more time we can sit down and chat it over (preferably in a pub with a few pints!). Warm regards.  SilkTork  *YES! 06:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I replied on my talk page, in an attempt to clarify any misunderstandings. I believe we have much common ground, but may have to agree to differ on some things. However, as your quote says, "I will listen to you, especially when we disagree". On another topic, Good_article_reassessment/Museum_of_Contemporary_Art,_Chicago/1 has been lingering at GAR and needs to be closed soon. Do you have any comments? Geometry guy 21:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I have had a quick look at the Chicago Museum. I think it has improved. Is it GA quality? I don't know, and with my limited access time on Wikipedia I don't think I have the time to spend reading it that closely. However, just looking at the first section, I found some of the writing awkward ("According to Chicago Tribune Pulitzer Prize-winning architecture critic Blair Kamin, the list of contenders was controversial because no Chicago-based architects were included as finalist despite the fact that prominent Chicago architects such as Helmut Jahn and Stanley Tigerman were among the 23 semi-finalists"), I found the history to be mainly focused on the founding of the first building, and I didn't feel it compared favourably with the Imperial War Museum, an article I recently passed for GA.  SilkTork  *YES! 05:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Integration
Is this active? Fences &amp;  Windows  20:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not as far as I am aware. I'll mark it inactive.  SilkTork  *YES! 10:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Follow-up questions
Hi, and thanks again for your note. I'll take the opportunity to ask you a couple of the questions I had initially posted at User Talk:Mattisse. In particular, I was interested to know how you conceive of your role as mentor, and how you might approach a hypothetical situation in which Mattisse returns to some of the behavior that has been problematic in the past (I have in mind specifically making insinuations and swipes in pursuit of old grudges). I'll emphasize that I haven't seen any such behavior from Mattisse since returning from the recent block, but I do think that it would be worth discussing how such a situation might be dealt with should it occur, and what might be done differently to achieve a better outcome. If you'd prefer not to respond, that's fine. If you'd prefer to respond off-wiki, feel free to email me; anything you say there will be kept completely confidential, though I can't promise to respond by email. Thanks again. MastCell Talk 17:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think if you haven't read it already, then this is useful. It clarifies some of the points. To give a quick summary, as I think the plan and mine and other's role in it has been somewhat misunderstood: Mattisse was requested by ArbCom to submit a plan to govern and guide her editing. As part of that request the notion of mentors or advisors being involved to help shape the plan was raised, and it was considered how these people could continue to give assistance. The idea of the plan was that Mattisse should reflect on those situations which cause her stress and to consider ways of dealing with that stress. My involvement is to be available to give Mattisse honest advice when requested, and - if needed - to urge her to cease activity in a certain area, and block her if she does not respond positively.
 * I want to make it clear that the plan as accepted by ArbCom was to give responsibility to Mattisse for her own actions. And that includes her own decision as to when to call on me and the others for advice. Within the plan was also the freedom of myself and others to give advise to Mattisse as and when we felt appropriate, but we had no responsibility to overlook Mattisse's edits or her behaviour.
 * Mattisse has historically not responded well to some interactions on Wikipedia. There are differing opinions on Mattisse's own responsibility for this, though there is an acceptance that Mattisse has been stalked and goaded. One of the outcomes of the ArbCom case was looking at how Mattisse could deal appropriately herself with actual or perceived negative interactions. The outcome was not that Mattisse should be monitored.
 * I do feel that people should revisit the case and acquaint themselves both with the outcomes and the discussions leading to those outcomes. A good understanding of the case should answer any queries about the role of myself and others.
 * I also feel that a good study of the plan is helpful. Mattisse is responsible for herself, but can call on us for advice. If she decides not to do this (as was the case with the recent alternative account behaviour which led to her block) then that is her responsibility, and she must face the consequences. She allows in her plan for any admin to warn and block her for inappropriate behaviour.
 * In the blocking incident it was clear that Mattisse acted inappropriately, and - as with any editor who acts inappropriately - she attracted attention and was blocked.
 * My involvement in this was to look into the issue and on the one hand inform Mattissee that I found her behaviour unacceptable, and on the other to speak with the blocking admin as I felt that a 2 week block was harsh in the circumstances. I did not, however, reduce the block myself, nor insist the blocking admin unblock Mattisse.
 * I have been disappointed but not surprised by some of the negative comments left on Mattisse's talkpage. I am uncomfortable with your own line of questioning as I feel it is inappropriate and unhelpful - and answers to your questions can be found with careful reading of the cases notes.
 * In short: Mattisse is responsible for her own actions. She acted inappropriately and received a block. We wait to see if Mattisse will act inappropriately again. If she does, then ArbCom - who retain jurisdiction over the case - may reopen the case and seek other remedies. The mentors/advisors are not responsible for monitoring - we are here to be consulted by Mattisse.  SilkTork  *YES! 18:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * A concrete follow-up which will actually answer many of my questions: what do you think of this and this? MastCell Talk 05:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


 * They are comments made by Mattisse on WP talkpages. I don't know the background to why the comments were made. Mattisse has not asked for my assistance. Are they disruptive comments? Given past history, they are not helpful, and could develop into unnecessary conflict, but I'm not sure they are actually disruptive in themselves - more gestures of frustration which are better kept to herself. Do they assist in building a positive image of Mattisse? Unfortunately not - they fit in with the perception of her as someone who engages in low-level grumblings. Personally I would like to see Mattisse make helpful comments - even if criticisms - rather than statements that are not advancing the position. On a positive note, Mattisse was reminded in both cases to step away, and she did so. Neither matter escalated. Are they worth mentioning to Mattisse as examples of the sort of comment that she might be better advised not making? Yes, I think so. Does the matter need to be taken any further? No, I think don't so. They are simply misplaced gestures of frustration.  SilkTork  *YES! 01:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, that's reasonable. If you would touch base with her along the lines you describe above, that would probably be beneficial, but up to you. MastCell Talk 04:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That is what I indicated above that I would do. However, I see that there is a discussion taking place, and so will await the outcome of that rather than stir the coals further. Your alertness to comments by Mattisse has been noted.  SilkTork  *YES! 17:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * To avoid any misunderstanding, could you elaborate on your last sentence? I'm inferring that you think I'm inappropriately monitoring Mattisse - is that a correct inference? MastCell Talk 19:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I have already gently indicated that I feel your comments on Mattisse's talkpage and your questioning here are unhelpful: "I'm not sure what your purpose is, but as suggested above, it might at this moment be more helpful if you read the ArbCom case", "I think we can best assist her with this by not dwelling on the incident.", "I am uncomfortable with your own line of questioning as I feel it is inappropriate and unhelpful". My above comment on your alertness was what I said - I have previously noted your interest in Mattisse, and now I am noting that you are currently alert to her postings. I would welcome a response to my earlier question as to why you are taking an interest in Mattisse. She already has a number of people paying attention to her postings - what value do you feel you can bring over and above those already watching her? And how do you feel that your attention would be helpful to Mattisse, and/or the project as a whole?  SilkTork  *YES! 20:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You and her other mentors had previously suggested that rather than ask Mattisse direct questions about her actions, I should contact you with any concerns on your talk page. Similarly, you recently told SandyGeorgia: "If at any time in future you feel that Mattisse is engaging in unseemly conduct, it might be helpful to contact myself or any of the others who signed up to the plan. We could look into it, and give Mattisse our views on what is happening. If you or others do not alert us to potential problems then in all likelihood we will miss it, as we are not watching Mattisse, nor have we been required to do that." I took your words at face value and raised a concern here in which I know I'm not alone. Your response is to coyly insinuate that I'm the problem because I have an unhealthy "interest" in Mattisse's edits. No, she posted to WP:AN/I, which I regularly read (against my better judgment). There, I see her continuing the same pattern of vindictive obsession with a few specific editors that has caused so much trouble in the first place. I raised my concern with one of her mentors. Which part of that chain of events is inappropriate? Do you see how your earlier promise of responsiveness to concerns sounds a bit hollow in light of your response here? MastCell Talk 22:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey - pause, rewind and read back. Where haven't I responded to any of your questions? And where have you responded to my request to explain your interest in Mattisse? If I haven't yet made it clear, let me make it plain now: I think your attention is not helpful. I think your attention is inappropriate. I find the tone of your questioning unpleasant. You suggest I speak to Mattisse after I have already said I would consider raising the issue with her (and then decided not to as it seemed the matter was being raised plenty enough already - a view I note was shared by Newyorkbrad - an editor whose opinion I respect). I was prepared to assist you, as it is my nature to want to help out. I have given you fairly expansive answers - which have been rather time-consuming at a period when I have limited access to Wikipedia and would rather be doing something more productive. Your digging into my motives, and saying incorrectly that I have made empty promises is rather grating in the circumstances. I have prepared for you detailed statements, yet you fail to respond to my inquiries. And let us be clear there is a difference between alerting someone to something happening, and asking for a "concrete follow up". I suspect that we are not going to agree on a number of issues, and I'm not interested in hair splitting. I don't feel my time is being productively used by answering your queries. As such I withdraw my offer of assistance to you. My best suggestion to you is to spend your time productively building the encyclopedia. There are already too many people looking at Mattisse - she really does not need anyone else to inspect her postings. However, if you want to explore further - then please ask someone else, and it would be helpful if you explained to them why you wish to get involved.  SilkTork  *YES! 13:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There's no need to duplicate this conversation. Since you copied it to my talk page, I've responded there. MastCell Talk 00:15, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Monitoring page
If you could watchlist User:Mattisse/Monitoring' you could help me in dealing with future problems. I hope not to disappoint you again. (You probably should update your daughter's photo. Bet big changes have occurred. ) Thanks! — mattisse (Talk) 23:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right about the photo. I have some nice ones. It's just getting around to uploading them. You know how it is with Wikipedia - you log on to do something, and there's an ongoing issue that drags you away from what you really want to do. I'm walking away from the Guinness incident because I am unable to make progress there, I'm not responding well, and it's been time-consuming and frustrating. There's so much unfinished work to do elsewhere anyway. I want to concentrate on getting Janis Joplin up to GA, for example - I can return to make Guinness a GA at some later point when things are cooler and I can discuss matters calmly.  SilkTork  *YES! 06:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:FILM September Election Voting
The September 2009 project coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting seven coordinators from a pool of candidates to serve for the next six months; members can still nominate themselves if interested. Please vote here by September 28! This message has been sent as you are registered as an active member of the project. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 02:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)