User talk:ThorLives

Heathenism
We are both Germanic Heathens and we should co-work rather than quarrel. I am not offended and I respect the Odinic Rite and the Odinist movement since Odinist groups are doing good job all over Europe. However Odinism is not the only Germanic Neopagan religions; there are many currents and individuals which do not identify as "Odinist". I am one of them, I am a Heathen (and European) identifying neither as an Odinist nor as an Asatruar. "Heathenry" has spread as an umbrella term for ALL Germanic Neopagans, being them Odinist, Asatruar, Urglaawers, Theodsmen, or any other subgroup, and it is often preferred over "Germanic Neopagan" because "Neopagan" is mostly used by Wiccans and related to Wiccan groups and publications.

I suggest you to make the Odinism wiki-entry an article writing what distinguishes the Odinist movement from Asatru, Forn Sidhr and the other branches of Heathenry. --Bhlegkorbh (talk) 17:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

That is good that we can cooperate.

Our traditions are different, however, In my opinion, the umbrella term is Odinism. Asatru was a new word coined in the 1970's, but it can also be used as an umbrella term.

Terms such as "pagan" or "heathen" are not really names, but they were insults hurled at the followers of the old gods. Indeed, if we properly translate pagan or heathen, they means country dweller or "hick"

Of course, I cannot insist on "Odinism" as the title of this article, because it would disturb some, such as yourself. Wikipedia is based on consensus. It does make anyone 100% happy because it is a compromise.

--ThorLives (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I notice that until recently you were posting using the name Odinic Rite. Can you contact me by email and tell me who you are? You know who I am if you are a member of the OR. Thanks Hengest (talk) 20:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

It appears you have removed all references to UK Heathen groups that are not affiliated to the OR off the Germanic Neopaganism page, I am sure this is not the will of the OR and it make the page bias and misleading. Noddyt (talk) 09:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Please check my edits. I have not removed any references to heathen groups with my edits; groups are free to call themselves heathen if they wish. I objected to using "heathen" as a blanket term for a much larger movement. --ThorLives (talk) 23:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

My edits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ThorLives

--ThorLives (talk) 00:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Your personal objections to "Heathen" should not be the basis for renaming the religion's umbrella term on a Wikipedia page. Across the UK and internationally Heathenry is the accepted term for Germanic Neopagan groups be they Odinist, Asatru, þeodisc or what ever. In the UK there are a large number of small kindreds, hearths and groups all identifying as Heathen and not Odinist, in fact the two are quite different. The Troth UK, Heathens Against Hate, UK Heathenry are large groups representing non-Odinist Heathens in the UK.

If you did not remove the links to non OR groups in the UK who did? The Wikipedia page gives the impression that only the OR exist in the UK and that all UK Heathens are Odinist which is completely untrue. Noddyt (talk) 07:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Noddy, the links were removed when an administrator (not I) reversed the edits. Just check the history of the page.

As for "heathen," the term is an insult, coined by Christians, and means country-dwellers or "hicks ." I have no objection if some people want to call themselves hicks, but it is not an appropriate name for the entire movement.

besides, wikipedia is about consensus. It is not what I want--or what you want--but it is about neutral terms that do not offend anyone. --ThorLives (talk) 20:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Removal of external link
ThorLives, this removal of the external link to the BBC website was not appropriate and I fully support its re-inclusion. Whoever the original authors of the material, the fact that it is hosted on the BBC website is sufficient to guarantee its credibility. It does not help the collegial atmosphere to unilaterally remove such a link, particularly with the edit summary you left. In the current situation with this article, co-operation and compromise is what is needed and your removal of the EL was the exact opposite of both.

I am trying hard to act as an honest broker between editors with strongly held views, but I need some help from you as well in trying to generate a collegial and productive atmosphere. You can't blame "the other side" without taking a look at how your own editing actions are affecting the situation. Kim Dent-Brown  (Talk)  12:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification
Hi. When you recently edited Germanic Neopaganism, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Eternal (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 10:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Administrators' Noticeboard
Hello there, you may like to know that an editor has posted a request for intervention here under the title "Help with Germanic Neopaganism article" which concerns you and mentions you by name. Kim Dent-Brown  (Talk)  19:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Talkback
Drmies (talk) 02:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello!
Greetings!--50.41.157.176 (talk) 07:55, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 14
Hi. When you recently edited Germanic Neopaganism/sandbox, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Germanic mysticism (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 11:00, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

January 2014
Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=593023483 your edit] to Odinism may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 ""s. If you have, don't worry: just [ edit the page] again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=User:A930913/BBpreload&editintro=User:A930913/BBeditintro&minor=&title=User_talk:A930913&preloadtitle=BracketBot%20–%20&section=new my operator's talk page].
 * List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * and Philosophy of the Indigenous Religion of Northern Europe.''iUniverse ISBN: 0595389643 2006

Removal of referenced information
Hi ThorLives, good to see you taking an interest in the article of Germanic neopaganism, but please don't simply mass delete information that has been added from reliable academic sources, [| as you did here]. Not only does it contravene Wikipedia policy, but it can lead to an escalating situation with edit warring and the like. Thank you, Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Regarding Germanic neopaganism, your help is welcome, but must you make wholesale changes unilaterally? If you examine the talk page, for example, we discussed the "heathen" pagan issue at length, so why did you insert the "heathen" word dozens of times in the article? Many British people use "heathen" for the movement, but in American English the word is used as an insult for the "non-religious" or profane.

Also, using Dr. Harvey's work repeatedly is not good style. Diversify! --ThorLives (talk) 20:22, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 1
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Germanic neopaganism, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Jeffrey Kaplan (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 09:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

September 2015
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be engaged in an edit war with one or more editors according to your reverts at Heathenry (new religious movement). Although repeatedly reverting or undoing another editor's contributions may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, and often creates animosity between editors. Instead of edit warring, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.

If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to lose editing privileges. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, and violating the three-revert rule is very likely to lead to a loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Neil N  talk to me 15:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Response
I'm sorry but I did say that I didn't want it to come to this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

ThorLives' response
From ThorLives — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThorLives (talk • contribs) 04:52, 8 September 2015 (UTC) Sorry, I suspected a "sock puppet." Midnightblueowl and Bhlegkorbh made the same edits and same arguments and disrupted the page in the same ways. If you check my edits, I was not deleting material: I was restoring material he deleted.

Both editors insisted that "heathenry" is the ONLY term for Germanic neopaganism. Folkish types do not like "pagan" because it has Latin and French roots.

Both editors deleted academic references dealing with medieval Norse Paganism. For example, who could object to the following, but both constant;y deleted it:

'''Our most complete sources for reconstruction are from Iceland. On the alleged existence of a collective Germanic paganism in medieval times, Professor Lois Bragg makes this observation: “But we have no persuasive evidence of any common cult, belief system, or even pantheon that might ever have been recognized among speakers of various Germanic languages across geographical, cultural, political, and dialect boundaries. While there are obvious commonalities, for example in the names of some deities (Odin, Woden, Wotan), these point to common origins rather than common praxis or belief. Compare present-dy Jews, Lutherans, and Mormons who share common myths (the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, the Moses cycle, the Patriarch cycle ) and who similarly name their children after the heroes of these myths (Adam, Aaron, Judith, Rebecca), but maintain distinctive cult practices and identities and even disparage and attempt to convert one another.” Lois Bragg. Oedipus Borealis: The Aberrant Body in Old Icelandic Myth and Saga Fairleigh Dickinson University Press. 2004. ISBN 0838640281'''

Both editors deleted saga, Prose Edda, and Poetic Edda references.n

Both editors deleted links and references to mainline pagan groups. This is the lede before the two removed it:

'''Heathenry or Germanic neopaganism,[1] also known as Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr, Wotanism, Theodism, and other names, is the contemporary revival of historical polytheistic Germanic paganism.[2] Dedicated to the ancient gods and goddesses of the North, the focus of Germanic neopagans varies considerably, from strictly historical polytheistic reconstructionism to syncretist (eclectic), Jungian, occult or mysticist approaches. Germanic neopagan organizations cover a wide spectrum of belief and ideals.

'''Much of Germanic Neopaganism's origins are in 19th century romanticism, as the aboriginal cultures of Northern Europe came to be glorified. In the early 20th century, organised groups emerged in Germany and Austria. In the 1970s, new Germanic Neopagan organisations grew up in Europe and North America, although a broad division in the movement emerged between the folkish movement, who saw it as the indigenous religion of the Nordic peoples, and the universalist movement, who opposed strictly racialist interpretations. As present, established Germanic Pagan communities exist in Europe, North America, South America, and Australasia. A few adherents can even be found in South Africa.'''

References to the Odinist Fellowship, Odinic Rite, Ásatrú Alliance, Asatru Folk Assembly, and so forth were constantly deleted by both editors.

Both editors constantly deleted references to Valhalla, a curious "conceit" on a page about Germanic paganism. (It makes sense, however, in a certain context. One small American group, who always uses the name Heathen exclusively, denies that Valhalla exists, and they argue that the dead continue to live in the grave mound)

Both editors deleted all references to modern Norse pagan leaders and their books, people such as Stephen McNallen, John Yeowell, and so forth.

I could continue, but you understand the point.

I should add that, in my opinion, an article on Germanic Neopaganism should be comprehensive, and should not promote a single agenda. It also should contain numerous links and discussions to help readers find related articles. --ThorLives (talk) 05:04, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. --ThorLives (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I think you might be maybe more talking or thinking about Neopaganism in Germany, which is currently a redirect to Neopaganism in German-speaking Europe, than Germanic neopaganism. One of the issues here is about WP:COMMONNAME, I guess, also, there are also the possibilities of notability as per WP:NOTABILITY. There are quite a few "[religion] by [country]" articles, and, honestly, there could conceivably, provided specific notability is established, be a lot more than there are already. I acknowledge that I have limited access to German-language sources regarding religion in Germany, but I do have fairly good access to at least English language academic sources. If you ever want any help, drop me a message on my talk page and let me know. John Carter (talk) 15:20, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you and I would like to help, but "vandals" have been reversing all my edits. If you need references, I suggest that you access an earlier version of the article, before it was "distorted."

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heathenry_(new_religious_movement)&diff=640044351&oldid=639789022

--ThorLives (talk) 00:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

This, for example, was from the earlier article:

''Current research suggests that the term "Odinism" was first used in the 1820s. Most famously, it was used in 1840 by the Scottish writer, historian, and philosopher, Thomas Carlyle. It featured in his book, On Heroes, Hero-Worship, and The Heroic in History.

It was referred to by the original Oxford English Dictionary as having first been recorded in the writings of Orestes Brownson in his 1848 Letter to Protestants.[140] The term was re-introduced in the late 1930s by Alexander Rud Mills in Australia with his First Anglecyn Church of Odin and his book The Call of Our Ancient Nordic Religion.[141]

Although one Odinist group specifically teaches that "in the eyes of gods, there are no chosen peoples and no master races,"[142] the term "Odinism" is sometimes associated with racialist Nordic ideology, as opposed to "Asatru" which may or may not refer to racialist or folkish ideals. As defined by Goodrick-Clarke (2002), Nordic racial paganism is synonymous with the Odinist movement (including some who identify as Wotanist). He describes it as a "spiritual rediscovery of the Aryan ancestral gods ... intended to embed the white races in a sacred worldview that supports their tribal feeling", and expressed in "imaginative forms of ritual magic and ceremonial forms of fraternal fellowship".[143]''

--ThorLives (talk) 00:16, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Heathen listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Heathen. Since you had some involvement with the Heathen redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Natg 19 (talk) 19:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 23
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Odinism, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Urd. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 13:14, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 4
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Odinism, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Jeffrey Kaplan. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 10:18, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 11
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Odinism, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Folkish. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 10:35, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

AN Notice
This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

ArbCom elections are now open!
Hi, You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:47, 24 November 2015 (UTC)