User talk:Wesley Wolf/Archive 13

=July 2014=

Орден для вас! (Order for you!)

 * Thank you for the barnstar, it is very much appreciated.  Wes   Mouse  19:01, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Please
...without seeking their permission to do so? Please! ← Alex Great talkrus? 12:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I have changed the name to show your user name as shown on English Wikipedia. However, I prefer that the talk page link directs to editor's English wikipedia user talk pages, as it is on English Wikipedia that I work on.  The awards section on my page is just a gallery of all the barnstars that people have kindly awarded to myself.  The way I have chosen to layout them is of my personal preference, in which I decided to show the award, the user's English Wikipedia name, their English talk page, and the date in which the award was issued.   Wes   Mouse  12:17, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'd like to talk to you about something... ← Alex Great talkrus? 05:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. You didn't really need to link the word "something" so that it directed me to the discussion below.  OBviously I am going to see it as both discussions are on my talk page.  :-D  Wes   Mouse  13:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Wiki markup is so awesome! :D ← Alex Great talkrus? 05:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Turkvision and Iraq
What about Iraq on this contest? Many sources say it is about Iraq, not the Iraqi Turkmens from Kirkuk. I say this because on the map of participation, we show Iraq as a circle (approximate location of the Kirkuk City or Governorate). I think it would be logical (most sources just for Iraq) to fill on the map the whole of Iraq without a circle. What do you say? ← Alex Great talkrus? 05:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It was decided to only highlight Iraqi Turkmens on the map, because the Turkvizyon website stipulated that only the Iraqi Turkmen region were eligible. However for the purpose of the contest they were labelling them as Iraq for simplified terms.  Same for Moldova-Gagauzia; we only show Gagauzia on the map and not the entire Moldovan region.   Wes   Mouse  13:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thank you, that's what I wanted to hear read. ← Alex Great talkrus? 05:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Hey, Wes. I've thought about it a little bit. And what about Kemerovo? Kemerovo Oblast, unlike Iraq, fully displayed. After all, not full Oblast participates as claimed, but only Shoriya (Shors, as in the case of the Iraqi Turkmen). This means only the following:
 * We remove Kemerovo Oblast and set point
 * OR remove the point from Turkmens and paint Iraq. Since the conditions are the same for both. What do you day? ← Alex Great talkrus? 06:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thank you, that's what I wanted to hear read. ← Alex Great talkrus? 05:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Hey, Wes. I've thought about it a little bit. And what about Kemerovo? Kemerovo Oblast, unlike Iraq, fully displayed. After all, not full Oblast participates as claimed, but only Shoriya (Shors, as in the case of the Iraqi Turkmen). This means only the following:
 * We remove Kemerovo Oblast and set point
 * OR remove the point from Turkmens and paint Iraq. Since the conditions are the same for both. What do you day? ← Alex Great talkrus? 06:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC) [This discussion is non-finished. Please do not archive it] 10:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I take it that you didn't see my wikibreak notice at the top of this talk page? I don't have regular internet access so can only get online when I am able to do so.  Also there is no need to stipulate that this discussion is "non-finished" and to "not archive it".  I manually archive when I feel it is necessary to do so.  I would not archive active discussions.  However, it may be better to take this entire discussion to the Project talk page for others to discuss the matter, due to the fact that I am not online as often as I use to be.   Wes   Mouse  16:13, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * But topic have been archived. And you not answered in my question. ← Alex Great talkrus? 10:00, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The official Turkvizyon website state it is the entire Kemerovo Oblast region. If we're to modify the map to show only the Shoriya population, then we would need substantial evidence to verify the change.  That's why Gagauzia and Iraqi Turkmen are shown specifically on the map, because a) the official website state that; and b) other sources back-up the claim.   Wes   Mouse  18:48, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

User page
Hi, mate. I was about to "steal" a userbox from your user page design and saw that you appreciated if people asked you first. So, would it be alright if I borrow: "This Wikipedian joined Wikipedia 2 years, 11 months, 8 days ago as of July 21, 2014" userbox? Cheers. :) Jonas Vinther (talk) 19:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Jonas, thank you for the request. However userboxes do not belong to myself, any Wikipedian is allowed to use those.  Feel free to check out WP:UB and WP:UBX for a list of all types of userboxes.  When I made reference to "stealing" my design, I meant the layout/colour scheme - not the content within it.  Hope this helps.   Wes   Mouse  12:03, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I believe I understand now, Wesley, and thank you. :) Jonas Vinther (talk) 15:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

=August 2014=

Belarus Language and Title
It seems that people are polarised as to whether the title of Belarus's song in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2014 is "Sokol" or "Sokal" and if the song is sung in Belarusian or Russian. I do not have enough skills in either language to be able to tell and the only reason I put Belarusian when I added Nadezhda to the article is because I read a comment on YouTube in very poorly translated English about how "if she sang in Russian, Russia would vote for her" or something like that. I'm honestly not sure which language it's sung in and we've had anonymous users change the title to "Sokal" which is what I believe the Belarusian word for "falcon" is but also have anonymous users change the language to Russian. I'm not sure what to do. { [ ( jjj  1238 ) ] }  15:05, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


 * No doubt we will know one way or another in due course as to what the title is and the language it will be performed in. It is a known fact that they change the title between now and the date when all entries are submitted to the steering group.  If doubts arise, then it might be worthwhile to start a thread at Talk:Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2014 for others to discuss the options.   Wes   Mouse  23:59, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was originally going to make a thread there but after my last attempt on having a discussion there garnered no responses, I decided to contact you and one other user directly for advice. From the time I left that message I've found out the song is definitely sung in Belarusian, but I do actually believe the song is called "Sokal" rather than "Sokol". Pretty much every Eurovision related news site has said the song is called "Sokol" but on the broadcast of the national selection, the song was written as "Сокал" ("Sokal"). But thanks a lot for your reply, I guess we'll leave it as so and see what happens in the coming months. { [ ( jjj   1238 ) ] }  00:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

=September 2014=

List of Eurovision Song Contest winners
Hi. I don't really understand why mentioning that Switzerland had the second best result in 1969 is original research, or why does it contradict the fact there was no official runner-up back then. Yes, there was no official runner-up, but Switzerland had the second best result, and it should be mentioned as a note in the table. Especially that the speculation about Germany's second place in 1956 is mentioned in the same table.Celtic1985 (talk) 13:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It's a generic template used to warn about original research and unpubished synthesis of sources. The latter was what I was referring to by usage of the template.  The information regarding 1969 is better off in a written prose, as it adds more value to the article body.  Placing it as a footnote doesn't give such important facts any prominent viewing.  The same goes for 1956, of which, I have now moved that footnote to the main body, and helped expand the prose you've written.   Wes   Mouse  14:12, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * OK, now it all looks better.Celtic1985 (talk) 17:25, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 41
This newsletter was delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk), on behalf of 15:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Eurovision Song Contest 2014
Hi

In my opinion you're not consistent. Georgia's jury votes count towards the televoting results of the second semi-final and Albania's and San Marino's jury votes count towards the televoting results of the Grand Final. Therefore, I think you're wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukas876 (talk • contribs) 18:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It's not a case of thinking I am wrong. The fact that there are reliable source to verify the results, prove that in actual fact you are wrong.  If you have an issue with the results, then I'd suggest you take the matter up with each of the respective broadcasters and/or the European Broadcasting Union. Facts are facts, and the sources is what we are bound by.   Wes   Mouse  18:21, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The fact is that in a few countries only jury voting applied. So why do you count these votes towards the televoting results of the second semi-final and the final and you don't count them in the case of the first semi-final? You're not consistent. If you are, you should correct all the tables from previous years. The results of the ESC 2014 are clear but there is a question whether we should count jury votes from countries where only jury votes apply to the televoting results or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.41.245.245 (talk) 18:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It is not what we think at all. How the EBU chose to determine the votes is their choice, not yours, mine, or anyone else's for that mater.  Now I strongly suggest you drop this matter as it is clearly not going anywhere.  Altering the content based on what we think violates original research policy.  Wes   Mouse  18:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I really don't understand what you're getting at. When EBU released the split results of the ESC 2012, 2011, 2010 and 2009, they included jury votes from countries where only jury votes applied in the televoting results. You're doing it in another way. I understand that including Macedonia's and Georgia's jury votes in the televoting results of the second semi-final is fine for you, isn't it? By the way, what I can see on Wikipedia does not agree with what I can see in your table with the televoting results. Something must be wrong. But it's no skin off my nose... I do not alter the content based on what I think. All I write is based on the data from eurovision.tv. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukas876 (talk • contribs) 19:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It is quite simple. When we add content to an article we base it on what sources say, so that we are able to verify what we are writing is 100% accurate and correct.  The split results are based on sources, including the EBU's.  You're just adding up the points to take into account that some countries did not have a televote.  Even though some did not use the televote, the EBU still used the "jury vote" in the split results.  Why they did that is not of my concern.  The fact we are able to verify by using reliable sources is of Wikipedia's utmost concern.  Perhaps you need to check some of the core policies from your "Welcome to Wikipedia" link that is at the top of your own talk page.   Wes   Mouse  19:18, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

It is very interesting because this year EBU didn't lay out such tables as you created on Wikipedia. If we count only televoting results in the first column, we should do it in the other tables (the 2nd semi-final and the final) as well. We should adopt one methodology. And please don't tell me about reliable sources because on the official website of the EBU there are no such tables as you created on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukas876 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Let's get a few facts straight first shall we, before you continue to cast allegations. Firstly, I did not "create" the tables; someone else did.  Secondly, the only methodology that should be adopted is that of the Wikipedia five core policies - something which even you should be abiding to.  Thirdly, if we manually calculate the totals, then we'd be on the verge of original research, and that is not allowed (which if you had familiarised yourself with the core policies, then you would have already known this).  For whatever reasons, the EBU included the jury points into the televoting table for those countries who did not use a televote.  Why they done this nobody knows, not unless we were to contact the EBU directly - and that would then break so many Wikipedia rules, that a user would be blocked from editing.  Now, go do some research and read those policies again, before returning back to my talk page an annoying the hell out of me.   Wes   Mouse  19:34, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I wrote a lot of research papers at university so I know everything about reliable sources. I read the Wikipedia rules. Look, I want to discuss. In your first message you invited me to your talk page and now you don't want to listen to my arguments. You didn't show any official, reliable source that would bear out that the results in the table are correct. The reason is that there is no such a table on the official ESC website and it has nothing to do with Wikipedia policy. To make such a table one has to count the votes by himself/herself and there is no another way. I really don't understand why we count jury votes in the first semi-final and we don't do it in the second semi-final. It doesn't make sense. That's all. As I said, it's no skin off my nose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukas876 (talk • contribs) 20:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh sources! I provided you with one on your talk page, did you miss it?  Here they are again!


 * Semifinal 1 televote only
 * Semifinal 1 jury vote only
 * Semifinal 1 combined vote
 * Semifinal 2 televote only
 * Semifinal 2 jury vote only
 * Semifinal 2 combined vote
 * Final televote only
 * Final jury vote only
 * Final combined vote
 * Website used which have been reliable in the past.  Wes   Mouse  20:07, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Now everything is clear. The results from your sources do not agree with the results in the tables on Wikipedia. Check out these results and you will see that they are different ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukas876 (talk • contribs) 20:16, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Indeed, you should check out those results again, as you will see they are the same on the article as they are shown on the sources. I trust the editor who created the tables on the article, and they were checked, double-checked, and even quadruple-checked by other editor's to make sure the information from the sources matched up to the information that was added to the article.  Any alterations that were made over time were reverted as soon as they were noticed. And please remember to sign at the end of your comments by simply typing four tildes (~), like this:  .  You're giving the poor  extra work to do - even a WikiBot deserves some peace!   Wes   Mouse  20:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Come on, in the source, Austria has 306 points from televoting in the final and on the webiste Austria has 311 points from televoting in the final. Is it the same?Lukas876 (talk) 20:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Sign your comments, if you wish for me to continue this discussion. And I thought you said it was "no skin off your nose".  Yeah, looks that way!   Wes   Mouse  20:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

In the beginning, in May and June, the televoting results of the first semi-final on the website were different. Someone corrected the table but did not correct the other tables.Lukas876 (talk) 20:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * So you're basically saying that on the article the results for semifinal 2 and the final are showing different to the results on those sources I linked to above?  Wes   Mouse  20:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm talking only about televoting results in the sources which are different to those on the website (in the table "split results"). Jury voting and general results are O.K.Lukas876 (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The sources I linked to above are the website. Are the results from those sources linked above matching the ones in the  Wikipedia article?   Wes   Mouse  20:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

For example, in the source, Austria has 306 points in televoting in the final while in the Wikipedia article Austria has 311 points. Compare these numbers I hope I'm not as blind as a bat.Lukas876 (talk) 20:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for signing your comments by the way, much appreciated. As for the results, I see what you mean now.  On the article, the televoting results match up to those on the sources (above).  Yet for the semifinal 2 and final they do not match with the sources.  In that case, it is merely an issue of correcting the article so that they do match up together - and I'd recommend cite web the sources just in case someone squabbles over the changes.   Wes   Mouse  20:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Re:Wikiproject Eurovision
Hi, thanks for inviting me to join this WikiProject Eurovision. However, I'm not currently interested in joining a project because frankly I'm not even sure what Eurovision even is. I also, think I wouldn't be much of a help because I don't usually add huge amount of content, and I currently not familiar with how references work. Crazy131 (talk) 18:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)