User talk:Westofpch

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SmashvilleBONK! 23:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Priority of making the article Roger Mahony conform to all other articles on Roman Catholic Cardinals
Thank you for taking an interest in the article Roger_Mahony by making a recent edit, and for explaining in your edit summary that your examination of the Archdiocese website indicated that the Cardinal preferred to use the title of his office ahead of his proper name, and so that therefore the lead sentence of this article should reflect this observation, instead of conforming to centuries of traditional Roman Catholic usage of clerical titles.

It is unclear at the present time whether the decision to print the office title ahead of the Cardinal's proper name was made personally by the Cardinal himself, or whether this choice was made in fact by the site creator, Deacon Eric Stoltz.

Unfortunately, when you made the editing change to the article, you also accidentally brought this encyclopedia entry out of conformity with the dozens of other Wikipedia articles on past and present members of the College of Cardinals, as it is a style convention in this encyclopedia that the title Cardinal should be included immediately before the last name when describing the subject's full name in the lead sentence of an article entry.

Now the article Roger_Mahony does not match the other articles on Roman Catholic cardinals. Not to worry-your edit can be reverted. If you still disagree, please stop by and make a comment on the |article talk page, or you can also contact me directly. Cheers! 198.252.8.202 Talk 02:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible confusion between personal preference settings and style conventions for Wikipedia articles
Westofpch, thank you for coming back to my talk page and to the article Roger Mahony so quickly [on May 19]. Unfortunately, we seem to be talking right past each other, and, as a result, you have accidentally misunderstood the issues which I have raised with you concerning your recent editing of the entry on the Cardinal.

First of all, I realize that messages, simply because of the inherently remote nature of this type of communication, can seem to carry a somewhat hostile tone at times due to this remoteness, and so, in order to compensate for this effect, I will take good care to try to sound as non-hostile in my responses as possible – even when I mean to relay a message that is critical in nature.


 * Roger Cardinal Mahony's use of his own name, and title. Purely by way of explanation, I mentioned that your reference to the Cardinal's decision about use of his office title was unclear at the present time, but you misunderstood. I meant that no one can include this fact claim unless verifiable, reliable sources (plural) are given in the article which establish the Cardinal's usage of his name and title.


 * Encyclopedia article style convention[s]. When you referred to the entry on Roman Catholic cardinals, you explained that your decision was correct. What the article says in fact is that both usages are correct, but you did not acknowledge that in your message – and I wonder why. It appears that you might have confused your personal preferences with the issue of article style conventions in this encyclopedia. No reader or editor may capriciously decide to change an article to suit their personal judgement, even in regard to how the subject uses their name and title themselves, because style conventions have to be maintained consistently throughout the entire encyclopedia.

In conclusion, please give this matter some serious thought. It does not matter what rules of style the Los Angeles Times, for example, has adopted for itself, because that decision does not affect style conventions inside Wikipedia. There are basic rules for how Catholic articles, for instance, must all match, and a matter such as how Cardinal Mahony uses his own title bears no relevance to what is written in this encyclopedia. Please let me know what you think. 198.252.8.202 Talk 21:57, Tuesday May 20, 2008  (UTC)

To User:198.252.8.202: Thank you for taking the time to reply and give further rational for your point of view. It seems clear that (a) we both want to present information in good faith which is clear, correct, and verifiable, (b) that we do so within Wikipedia guidelines of verifiability and style convention, and (c) we disagree on how best to do this in the case of Cardinal Mahony.

In support of your point of view, you essentially brought up three points (two in bullets, one in your conclusion). I will respond to each in turn below:

"'Roger Cardinal Mahony's use of his own name, and title. Purely by way of explanation, I mentioned that your reference to the Cardinal's decision about use of his office title was unclear at the present time, but you misunderstood. I meant that no one can include this fact claim unless verifiable, reliable sources (plural) are given in the article which establish the Cardinal's usage of his name and title.'"

To this end, I offered up multiple verifiable, reliable sources which establish the Cardinal's usage of his name and title as "Cardinal Roger Mahony": reprints of speeches the Cardinal has given, letters he has published, and articles he has written all titled or signed as "Cardinal Roger Mahony." While each of these is an independent occurance, they all come from the Los Angeles Archdiocese (whether from their website or from their diocesan newspaper, The Tidings); in my mind, this would be the definitive source, but since some might actually regard it as ultimately being insufficient, I offered up quotes from the Los Angeles Times showing their usage of the cardinal's name and title as "Cardinal Roger Mahony." You seem to have a different issue with this reference (which I will address below), but regardless of your issues with either, the point of fact is that there are already multiple "verifiable, reliable sources (plural) given . . . which establish the Cardinal's usage of his name and title" as you request.

"'Encyclopedia article style convention[s]. When you referred to the entry on Roman Catholic cardinals, you explained that your decision was correct. What the article says in fact is that both usages are correct, but you did not acknowledge that in your message – and I wonder why.'"

You are absolutely correct in that the article says that both usages are correct. I did not feel that I had to state that explicitly since the vast majority of cardinals use the title as you prefer, i.e. Sean Patrick Cardinal O'Malley. In my mind, it is analogous to being accused of refering to an article about an eclipse but failing to mention the sun is visible most of the time, when both writer and reader know the obvious conventions. In this case, you and I both know that most cardinals use their titles between their first and last names. I unhesitatingly stipulate as to the correctness of the more common order of first-Cardinal-last, and I referenced the wikipedia article on Roman Catholic cardinals as evidence that both are, in fact, correct. I anxiously await your acknowledgment of this same fact.

"'...It appears that you might have confused your personal preferences with the issue of article style conventions in this encyclopedia. No reader or editor may capriciously decide to change an article to suit their personal judgment, even in regard to how the subject uses their name and title themselves, because style conventions have to be maintained consistently throughout the entire encyclopedia.In conclusion, please give this matter some serious thought. It does not matter what rules of style the Los Angeles Times, for example, has adopted for itself, because that decision does not affect style conventions inside Wikipedia. There are basic rules for how Catholic articles, for instance, must all match, and a matter such as how Cardinal Mahony uses his own title bears no relevance to what is written in this encyclopedia. Please let me know what you think.'" A few points here:
 * You are absolutely incorrect in assuming or inferring that my "personal preferences with the issue of article style conventions in this encyclopedia" in any way affect my attempts to edit this article . While I do not have access to the style guide of the Los Angeles Times, I do find it interesting that the newspaper currently refers to "Cardinal Roger Mahony" while in the past they used the form "Timothy Cardinal Manning" for Cardinal Mahony's predecessor as Archbishop of Los Angeles and that Cardinal Manning preferred that style when referring to himself.  I also find it interesting that one of the other major newspapers in the area, the Orange County Register also uses the style "Cardinal Roger Mahony."  The Los Angeles Times, the Orange County Register, and I seem to be following the convention and example set forth by the Cardinal himself in his own writings.  In contrast, I have not chosen to make similar edits to any other cardinal, e.g. Edward Cardinal Egan, since in his own writings Cardinal Egan chooses to place his title between his first and last names.
 * Your reference to style conventions inside Wikipedia is an interesting one. Upon checking Manual of Style, one will see that there is no reference as to the preferred usage within Wikipedia for use of the title of Roman Catholic Cardinal within that man's name.  It is clear then that the issue is still up for discussion and debate (as all of us are now doing here).  I can only conclude (without malice, mind you) that your references to "article style conventions in this encyclopedia" and "style conventions inside Wikipedia" are not references to any agreed upon manual of style within Wikipedia, but merely a statement about the most common usage of the title within Wikipedia.  I am not surprised that this is more commonly used within this encyclopedia considering that it is, by far, the most common usage by cardinals throughout the world; however, "more common" does not equal "more correct" and until there is clear consensus on this issue, it is prudent to continue to allow for either correct usage.
 * Your subsequent statement of "No reader or editor may capriciously . . ." along with your statement on the Roger Mahony talk page that "I do not know whether Westofpch has any kind of ideological ax to grind which would serve as any kind of motivation for editing Roger Mahony in this manner; nor would I care to speculate on the matter, since it would not advance the quality of the article" is, whether or not you intend it, inflammatory and clearly violates the Wikipedia policy of assuming good faith. While you try to caveat your statements and/or make them generic, this passive aggressive style is still accusatory, regardless of your intent, in the same way as the following very similarly worded statement:  "I do not know whether Person X beats his dog; nor would I care to speculate on the matter. . . ."  Merely raising it as a possibility in a public forum such as Wikipedia is tantamount to accusation, whether or not that is your intent and whether or not you place caveats at the beginning of your article stating that it is not your intent.  I urge you to refrain from such statements as we continue this lively debate.

To summarize my arguments and line of thinking:
 * 1) Both styles (i.e. "Roger Cardinal Mahony" and "Cardinal Roger Mahony" ) are widely acknowledged to be correct usages of the title for a Roman Catholic Cardinal, both within Wikipedia and in other sources outside this encyclopedia.
 * 2) Roger Mahony himself uses his title as "Cardinal Roger Mahony" as is evidenced in his own writings and speeches.  This evidence is referenced within Wikipedia and is available through a number of sources, both online and through other media.
 * 3) No clearly established rules or style guidelines have been established on Wikipedia as to this issue.
 * 4) Given all of these three, it is within the spirit and mandate of Wikipedia to present complete, thorough, and unbiased information that the article for Roger Mahony duly refers to his title of Cardinal in the manner which he himself prefers.

With this in mind, I will state my intent to revise the article such that it makes reference to Cardinal Mahony's preferred usage of his title without changing the entire article; however, this should NOT be construed as my acceptance of the form "first-Cardinal-last" in cases where the Cardinal himself chooses to use his title differently; on the contrary, I strongly consider this issue still open until such time as a genuine consensus is reached and/or Wikipedia administrators make a definitive ruling, I welcome and look forward to continued lively (and respectful) debate on this topic. Westofpch (talk) 17:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Fort Worth Symphony Orchestra
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ArbCom elections are now open!
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