Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 September 1



Category:Gold Rush

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The result of the debate was Delete. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 01:48, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Already depopulated, sorry! Moved items to Category:Gold rushes and subcat Category:California Gold Rush as appropriate. (Cat was originally Cali, then got filled up with other gold rushy things.
 * jengod 23:17, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * If you insist. Not a big deal either way, although plurals are recommended for category titles. So I guess support, especially since the recat work has already been done.Luigizanasi 23:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * It can totally be redirected, I just didn't know what the best practice was...I'll let the group decide. jengod 03:42, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe you did the right thing. "Gold rushes" is a better name for the category than "Gold rush", and creating a category for the Calfornia gold rush was also a good idea (I did create the "Klondike Gold Rush" category). So an administrator can proceed with the deletion of "Gold rush" in a week or so, unless a bunch of people strenuously object. What is important, though, is that there not be two categories.Luigizanasi 15:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * As the original creator of Category:Gold Rush, I support the move. Definitely a better name.  Postdlf 23:27, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Directors of Los Alamos National Laboratory

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The result of the debate was Listify and delete. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 01:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Small, overly specific category with no potential for real growth (even though a number of its members don't yet have articles). Better as a list anyway, because then a chronology can be indicated. I've put all of the information this category could ever provide into Los Alamos National Laboratory (that is, I've already turned it into a list, inside the main article). Fastfission 22:44, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Excellent candidate for a list. siafu 22:51, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Listify and given the size of that list it should probably be in the main article. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 08:47, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Convert to otherarticles. (except for Oppenheimer, this will be the primary cat for them. Septentrionalis 22:31, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Greek demons

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 13:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Delete as both redundant and inaccurate; "demon" meant something entirely different to the ancient Greeks. The contents of this category were moved into Category:Greek legendary creatures. -Sean Curtin 20:58, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and apply to kallikanzaros; I agree that it is a miscat for the articles which seem to have been deleted from it. Septentrionalis 22:28, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as empty. --Kbdank71 13:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Scandium compounds

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The result of the debate was Keep. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 01:55, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Empty category. TexasAndroid 20:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Keep No longer empty. Category follows the usual format of Element name compounds and I was easily able to add a stub article for one notable scandium compound, scandium oxide. Caerwine 01:50, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Keep - Submitter, changing my vote. This is why I toss certain empty categories up here instead of speedying them. If someone makes them useful, then there's no need for delete. TexasAndroid 17:45, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


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Subnational Entites

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The result of the debate was Delete. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 02:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Empty categories (except each other, in one case). Would speedy, but wanted to give them a chance to be populated if there is actually anything that belongs in them. TexasAndroid 17:11, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Category:First-order subnational entities of South America
 * Category:Second-order subnational entities of South America
 * Category:Subnational entities of South America
 * Category:Second-order subnational entities
 * Category:First-order subnational entities
 * Comment There are already the categories: Category:First-order administrative divisions and Category:Second-order administrative divisions that are partially populated. There is also a populated Category:Subnational entities.  There don't exist other corresponding sub categories broken down by continent.  The system needs some regularization so that Wikipedia uniformly uses either subnational entities or administrative divisions.  Only once that has been decided can the decision can be made as to which to keep. Caerwine 17:54, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, naming is confusing. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 08:47, September 2, 2005 (UTC)


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Mladen Savovich

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The result of the debate was Delete all. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 02:03, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

One person. Five categories just for him. Sorry, but no. Not sure where he should really go, but this structure isn't it. TexasAndroid 16:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Category:Engineers from Russia
 * Category:Engineering of Yugoslavia
 * Category:Engineers from Bosnia and Herzegovina
 * Category:Serbian engineering
 * Category:Serbian engineer
 * I'm not saying delete the article, just the categories. TexasAndroid 16:50, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete all. This is a mess, not to mention that some of these are mutually exclusive and yet they all contain the same one article. siafu 21:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete all. Oh dear. Though we should probably have Category:Serbian engineers, Category:Russian engineers etc (with the appropriate name). -Splash 01:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * As follows: -- Reinyday, 08:56, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Category:Engineers from Russia because Category:Russian engineers is populated.
 * Delete Category:Engineering of Yugoslavia as unnecessary and empty.
 * Delete Category:Serbian engineering as unnecessary and empty.
 * Rename Category:Serbian engineer to Category:Serbian engineers to match Fooian engineers style currently used in Category:Engineers by nationality.
 * Keep Category:Engineers from Bosnia and Herzegovina because that is the style used for occupations at Category:People from Bosnia and Herzegovina (which I assume came out of some sort of discussion).


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Category:Shopping in Hawaii

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The result of the debate was Delete. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 02:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Empty category. TexasAndroid 16:38, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Shopping? Oh please. This isn't WikiTravel. Delete Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 08:47, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. -- Reinyday, 08:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete: empty; a more standard format category title would be Category:Retail companies of Hawaii anyway. - choster 14:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Shark taxonomy

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The result of the debate was Delete. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 02:07, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Empty category. TexasAndroid 16:38, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Redundant with Category:Sharks (though one could argue for a rename of that to Selachimorpha). siafu 22:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Great idea if you want to make the category a closed book to 99.9% of readers. CalJW 03:50, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Small business

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The result of the debate was Delete. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 02:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Only item in it is Portal:Marketing, which appears to be a half-formed Wiki-portal mostly untouched for 1 1/2 months (except for a bot/script rename). TexasAndroid 16:19, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, POV name. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 08:47, September 2, 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Wikipedians in Chechnya

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The result of the debate was Delete. &infin; Who ? &iquest; ? 02:13, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Is empty, isn't about to grow, and had no reason to be created in the first place.
 * tyomitch 08:43, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete wikipedian cats. List if there ever are members. siafu 22:17, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep all wikipedian cats, regardless of the number of members. -Seth Mahoney 01:17, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep all potentially useful wikipedian cats. (Can somebody explain why you would want to delete them?) Eventually we'll have someone in here. N (t/c) 14:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) it is empty; 2) it's the only Russian region to have a dedicated Wikipedians cat. Why Chechnya is so special? Maybe we should create a Wikipedians cat for every Russian region? --tyomitch 11:59, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * All right, see your point. Delete for now. N (t/c) 18:22, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete Wikipedian cats, especially the empty ones. -Splash 23:15, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete We're here to write an encyclopedia, not to network. CalJW 00:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Mountains by Elevation (km) and its subcategories

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The result of the debate was listify --Kbdank71 14:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Trenches CfD items mysteriously moved to: Just go here.
 * Trenches CfD items mysteriously moved to: Just go here.
 * Trenches CfD items mysteriously moved to: Just go here.
 * Trenches CfD items mysteriously moved to: Just go here.
 * Trenches CfD items mysteriously moved to: Just go here.
 * Trenches CfD items mysteriously moved to: Just go here.
 * Trenches CfD items mysteriously moved to: Just go here.
 * Trenches CfD items mysteriously moved to: Just go here.

Maybe it's just me, but this looks completely mad. Surely this is what list articles are for. Not to mention: (1) some fairly dodgy capitalisation; (2) the use of "NZ" rather than New Zealand; and (3) inconsistency between nouns and adjectives in the astronomical categories. Listify them all and create to house them. Grutness...  wha?  05:46, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I note also that one of the categories (the Io one) currently contains no mountains sorted by height. Nopt surprising, since I don't think the heights of any have been measured yet, and Io's surface is in permanent flux. Grutness...  wha?  07:04, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Here is the source for the mountain info on Io. (None Match 27km Olympus Mons of Mars):
 * http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/2001/iomountains.html
 * Only one mountain height mentioned of the 23 mountains gazetted at USGS:
 * http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/jsp/FeatureTypesData2.jsp?systemID=5&bodyID=7&typeID=27&system=Jupiter&body=Io&type=Mons,%20montes&sort=AName&show=All
 * ¢ NevilleDNZ 17:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC) ¢

I helped create these sorted categories, here are my thoughts:
 * Strong listify, this is well-meaning but entirely illegible in this format. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 07:16, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * "Q": "Surely this is what list articles are for.", A: Only for the one above 8000m.  (Too much hard work listifying)
 * Fix listifying: Basically list are generally out of date in anything but "well known" lists and small lists. I speculate that this is because lists are manually created, and as information become availiable via new Templates and Infoboxes must be added manually.
 * re: "(2), the use of "NZ" rather than New Zealand", This comment on NZ is a matter partly of taste, but easily fix by changing the country name in the template.
 * Similarly these Auto-Categories are Automatically generated
 * These Categories are infact the only ordered source of mountain/hill heights anywhere in wiki, esp British Hills, 7000m+ mountains and NZ mountains. (eg, what is the 4th highest peak in the Southern Alps?)
 * And all of the above can be achieved (consistently) with only very minor house keeping.
 * re: "(3) inconsistency between nouns." By taking advantage of template lists this can be cleaned up.  This is not a criteria for deleting wiki articles, only for improving them.
 * These categories have only existed for 4 days. I am sure a bit of refinement over time with remove some of the above quirks mentioned, and leave wiki with a useful resource of mountain elevation, and hill heights.
 * Finally, there has been a small amount to between the contributors of Hill/Mountain articles, and basically there was a consensious. (eg under Wikipedia:WikiProject Mountains/General); Although I could agree things were evolving.
 * It is unfortunate that this "vote for deletion" was called without paricitation by the person who nominated the deletions.

BTW: when can I take these Sorted Categories off the Cat Delete list?
 * Not until the debate is over, 7 days from when it started. Generally, it will be done for you. -Splash 01:37, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

¢ NevilleDNZ 12:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC) ¢


 * You're making life many, many times harder for yourself by using categories in this way - ordering items by a scale is just the sort of thing that a list is perfect for and a category isn't. To answer your individual points:
 * Too much hard work listifying - far less work than to open a list and edit it once to add 100 hills than to open 100 different articles to add one category to each of them. A list is by far the easier method.
 * 99%+ of the pages use a template/infobox, for these only one line in currently 4 templates needs to be changed. ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * On each article that needs changing. So you need to open each and every article, rather than opening one list. Far more work. Grutness...  wha? 
 * list are generally out of date.... I speculate that this is because lists are manually created - whereas adding a category to articles is done how? Manually. Therefore this is just as likely to get "out of date" In fact, since a list can have red-links, which a category can't, it's far less likely to miss any new articles created.
 * via 4 templates template/infobox. ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * and the figures are put into the templates by a machine? Or does someone type them in - manually? Grutness...  wha? 
 * the use of "NZ" rather than New Zealand"... easily fix by changing the country name in the template. You clearly don't understand templates - a change to the category in the template will require a null-edit of every article in it.
 * I spotted that already. But once the template/infobox is settled/static this is not required anymore. ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * these Auto-Categories are Automatically generated - no, you have to add the category manually to each article. A bot could be used, but only if the category was all you were adding - you're also having to add a sort code based on the height for each one - that can't be done by a bot.
 * I hope that this new idea proves useful. ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * No new idea visible anywhere. Grutness...  wha? 
 * These Categories are infact the only ordered source of mountain/hill heights anywhere in wiki, esp British Hills, 7000m+ mountains and NZ mountains. - so, make lists.
 * I cannot see Sorted-Categorys replacing handmade or imported lists, but they are useful. ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * Yet that is exactly what you are trying to do here. Unfortunately, as is quite clear from the categories, you haven';t succeeded. Grutness...  wha? 
 * all of the above can be achieved (consistently) with only very minor house keeping. - But more housekeeping than would be needed with a list - and with less likelihood of error. According to the highest peak in the UK is Walbury Hill, at somewhere over 9000 metres (i.e., slightly higher than Mt. Everest).
 * "Off scale" peaks need to be added manually, and prefix with a zero or > . Maybe it is higher the Everest, just nobody noticed until I did the sorted category. :-)  Do I get naming rights? ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * so not only do you have to type in the heights, you have to remember extra codings for "off-scale" peaks. And you say it's less work?
 * re: "(3) inconsistency between nouns." By taking advantage of template lists this can be cleaned up.  This is not a criteria for deleting wiki articles, only for improving them. - I did say it was a minor thing compared to the other glaring problems with these categories.
 * Fixable, automatable. ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * These categories have only existed for 4 days. All the better reason to listify them now, while it's still not too much work.
 * Ouch! ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * Ouch or not, it's true. Better to fix them now and save yourself all this unnecessary work. Took me half an hour to create a list of 350 British peaks - whereas you had two dozen in four days. Grutness...  wha? 
 * Finally, there has been a small amount to between the contributors of Hill/Mountain articles, and basically there was a consensious. (eg under Wikipedia:WikiProject Mountains/General); Although I could agree things were evolving. Not quite sure what this means, but if you mean that there was consensus between differen editors working on hill and mountain articles, that doesn't necessarily mean that the consensus reached chose a particularly useful or sensible method of listing heights. let's face it - that's what you're trying to do, isn't it? List peaks by height? You can't categorise them by height, because heights aren't categories, by definition - they'e a continuum.
 * Categorising them by 1000ft bands seems to work nicely. ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * whereas listing them by with subheadings at those heights works just as well, with the added advantages that the heights can be clearly seen by anyone looking at the list - rather than having one digit and having to try to guess the rest. Grutness...  wha? 
 * It is unfortunate that this "vote for deletion" was called without paricitation by the person who nominated the deletions. - You're right that I am not a member of that particular wikiproject - I'm just someone who can spot someone making loads of extra work for themselves and failing to use the best wiki tools for the job. Grutness...  wha?  13:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Not true, carefully add adding one category line to one infobox to do the work automatically seems kinda natural and can get a lot of mileage.  On the other hand I can see that the wrong " one category line" would be very visable. ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * Adding one l9ne to one infobox on every individual article, compared to simply writing one article.
 * By the way - you might want to see List of New Zealand mountains by height, which took me about twenty minutes to make and contains five times as many mountains as in your category. List of mountains on the Moon by height took even less time. Lists are easy. Grutness...  wha?  14:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * ThanX for that. NZ has need one of these for some time, I discovered some mountains that I didn't even know existed.  ¢ NevilleDNZ ¢
 * Categories and lists perform fundamentally different tasks. A list is fine as a list, but for someone to create a list of all British hills and mountains would be an enormous and highly subjective endeavour. The category British Hills by Height is potentially useful as a different way of combining the various categories Hills of Snowdonia, Hills of South-east England and so on into one and sorting them by height (it might also be interesting to have a category sorted by relative height). To tackle some of the criticisms levelled above:
 * The category notice does not have to be added to each individual page, at least for British Hills, because it's done automatically as part of the British Hills infoboxes. Articles won't of course appear in the category listing until they've been edited, but we can live with that to start with, and it'll soon go away.
 * The British hills infobox has to be added to each page, so yes, every article nees to be edited. Especally since changes in templates that sort to categories require null-edits if the template is already on an article when the change is made to the template. Grutness...  wha? 
 * Walbury Hill no longer appears as the highest mountain in the world. That was a teething problem that has now been sorted out; the listings are now more or less in order. (There's also a problem with commas in heights such as "3,560 ft", but that can also be fixed by making the articles more uniform, something that should be done anyway.)
 * We are not here categorising by height, as Grutness suggested above, but categorising as hills/mountains, and then sorting by height. That's very different.
 * If you're not categorising by height, why are you putting things in categories named "X by elevation"? Or do elevation and height refer to different things? Grutness...  wha? 
 * Something titled "X by height" is clearly indicating both the criteria for inclusion and the manner of sorting. There is no such thing as a "hill by elevation", so I can't see that your comment makes much sense. A list of "mountains over 8000m" or "hills below 2000 feet" (sorted in any manner) would be categorisation by height. This, however, is not. --Stemonitis 08:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I see a category such as this as being more useful than another incomplete list. "List of New Zealand mountains by height"? By what criteria? What is a mountain and what is just a secondary summit or a small rock? Do not fall under the illusion that a list like that is objective. At least the category system is honest about only containing pages with Wikipedia articles, without trying to justify them with some other criterion. Furthermore, "Other prominent mountains" is useless. I might just as well list "Some mountains I've just thought of". If they're so important, then they'll have articles, and they'll appear in a category somewhere. That's exactly what a category is for. Please don't try to replace an elegant and usefully sorted category with a meaningless and subjective list.
 * "Other prominent mountains" just sounded better than "other mountains that Wikipedia either has articles for or are red-linked or prominently mentioned in other Wikipedia articles". Grutness...  wha?  01:58, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, I would not have created these categories myself, but now they're here, I can see that they have some use, and do not deserve the vitriol that they've received. --Stemonitis 10:41, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete. - Precedence in cases such as this was set by deleting Category:Books by title (see archive). - Darwinek 14:03, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Vsmith 17:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Listificate. No argumentatification. siafu 22:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Listify and delete clearly. -Splash 01:37, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. A category of mountains sorted by height is just as relevant as a category sorted alphabetically. --Stemonitis 10:41, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep but change the E to an e, and H to an h In most cases (ideally), only one entry is required in one template/infobox (not every page). Remember (for example) British Hills is an evolving/growing group and as such let the sorted-category evolve with it. I like hand crafted lists, but they need to be collected and maintained manually and new pages may not make the hand crafted list immediately as they do in an sorted-category. ¢ NevilleDNZ 12:27, 2 September 2005 (UTC) ¢
 * Keep. Mostly for the reasons outlined by Stemonitis. A list is purely subjective, and we should not pretend otherwise. The category is useful - it's criteria is simple: "peaks with articles on thw wiki". Grinner 12:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete them and turn them into lists. The lists can have mountains not in wikipedia as well. And arent lists normally used for this sort of thing? I had a look at the catagories and they made no sense. Some of the hights were given as "{ kilometers". Others of them were in the wrong order. The lists look good and anyone can understand them. Why have a catagory pretending to be a list when you can have a list being a list? BL Lacertae 14:55, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. If you're going to make a list, then you need to have some criteria for inclusion on the list. There is never going to be a list of British hills that includes all the hills with articles, unless it's a list of all names appearing on OS maps (and what a dull and pointless list that would be). Yes, create a list of Marilyns or of Munros, where there are a limited and fixed number; yes, create a list of Britain's highest mountains if you like; but no, do not delete the category. Wainwrights? List 'em. Eight-thousanders? List 'em. But don't delete this perfectly useful category. --Stemonitis 15:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * As a secondary issue, I think this is going to get confusing if we keep discussing all these categories together. I'd be perfectly happy to see Category:Io Mountains by Elevation destroyed, but Category:British Hills by Height must be kept. I think most of the delete votes were speaking about these categories in general, whereas the keep votes were considering one category specifically. Shall we discuss Category:British Hills by Height separately from the others? --Stemonitis 15:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Agree here, I am only advocating the retention of Category:British Hills by Height. Grinner 15:24, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete. I don't think categories are meant to sort by content, at least not in the present implementation. Lists are more appropriate for this sort of thing; adding an "incomplete list" tag to it would guard against anyone thinking it is comprehensive, and it would be easy to add "This is a list of such and such with articles on Wikipedia" to the introduction of a list page. --Fastfission 16:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep, especially for British Hills. For goodness' sake, this is useful (now the teething problems have been sorted). Agreed, the creator of the categories has put a lot more hard work in than he had to, but he's come up with something good. It's an original and clever way of using the database, even if this isn't how the database is supposed to be used. It's really good to have a list of British hills that includes every hill in Britain that has an article on the Wiki - useful for people trying to improve them. And in the right order too, as a bonus! Someone's obviously put a lot of work into this and if people are prepared to keep putting work into it, good. Who cares if it's not how we're supposed to use it? It's useful! --Mark J 10:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Make a list. Having said this, a list would be equally good, just slightly harder to maintain. Plus you could actually put the heights in. --Mark J 10:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Listify and delete. This is a tough decision but I don't think using categories is the best approach to listing peaks by elevation. When I want to see a list of 7,000 metre peaks, having the exact elevation and their location at the same time on one page is very useful for comparison. Using categories means I must go to each individual page for this information. Unlike lists of books where it will always grow (until the end of humans), the list of mountains on Earth is finite (although a new mountain could spring up in the next 100 years but it would be easily added at that point). As well, notwithstanding the capitalization issues, metres is the standard convention used when referring to mountains (at least on Earth) not km. While I can probably see why km was used (for the non-Earth mountains), it just is not aesthetically pleasing. Mountaineers say 7,000 metre peaks, not 7 km peaks. While the use of categories can make it easier to initially get this type of information setup, I think a list makes better sense in the long run. Perhaps, 7,000 metre peaks could get their own category like the 8,000 metre peaks but anything lower than that would eventually become unwieldy and somewhat useless IMHO. A final comment on the reference to it being similar to the debate held on the categories to alphabetize books. The distinct difference between sorting alphabetically and categorizing by elevation is that mountaineers and other like minded individuals are quite curious to see a collection of the 7,000 metre (I certainly am) or perhaps even 6,000 metre peaks. However, still a list would work better than categories. RedWolf 20:43, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Listify and delete. Agree with Grutness.-gadfium 04:30, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Think about it once again I personally think that the whole discussion is pointing out a lack of structuring capability within the wikimedia engine. There is no way to assign properties to lemmata and categories are the first step to structure the content of this huge database. There has been much talk about lists and categories, however the conclusion is that lists are only structuring locally and have to be duplicated far too often, thereby consistency is lost (i.e. want to build a table of highest mountains in the solar system? - one has to copy and paste). The suggested use of a category, in my eyes, is an abuse as well, because "Mt. something" is an element of the category (=group) "Mountain". "Height in metres" is a property and should be treated as such. To underline the differences: one can sort a category by a property, but not by its elements (alphabetic order is also an implicit property). My impression is that the supporters of the category approach is just that what they want. Having a way to automatically sort and select elements by their property/ies. But this involves a change of the engine. If this is performed properly (see bugzilla-for-wikipedia - you might vote for it if you're interested) multiple issues like this one could be settled without a quarrel about deletion of an obsolete category or list. In the end the list would become a template that can be sortet and limited to build it into an article by a short statement looking somehow like:  {table category:Mountains country="NewZealand" sortby="elevation in metres" start=1000 columns="Name|elevation|longitude|latitude" title="Mountains in New Zealand above 1000 metres"} . Clicking the tables column header could allow to sort it dynamically by any displayed property. Clicking the contents would allow to alter the properties, stored in the category "mountain" - everybody would be happy this way I guess and hope! (no ugly table codes, lean code, fast and centralized information access, sorting, no weird "property" categories, a faster development of wikipedia)   --BoP 08:56:43, 2005-09-04 (UTC)
 * Delete and listify, as arguments above for doing so make sense. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 18:23, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Enhancement table example and toolbar
Here is an example of a generated table. it can be generated at the USGS web site, the mountains are sorted by Latitude. Heights are currently unavailable.

Note that the table heading becomes a tool bar that can be clicked on to sort the table anyway the end-user prefers.


 * In the absence of the USGS table heading toolbar↑↓, the sorting the Mountain Elevations using an elevation index on the category is a useful tool.
 * Indexing by that immediately updates a mountain height category when the mountain article is created with an appropriate infobox.
 * Each mountain in a manually created list has its own double entry error problem, but however lists have their own benefits, eg the editor can elect to manually add as many columns/feilds as desired.

In the absence of sorted heights lists for almost all countries, or even globally for the top 100 mountains, AND for lists that are evolving, I recommend we keep the current height sorted categorys.

¢ NevilleDNZ 16:35, 4 September 2005 (UTC) ¢


 * I agree that this features are quite rewarding, but having categories as properties is a clear abuse of the technology. Though I am not in favor to delete these right away, however they should be replaced by something more flexible and much more powerful. In the mid term ugly categories that are abused to sort a list definitely should go away, therefore I suggest to channel the efforts for the |next technological step. --BoP 20:39:55, 2005-09-04 (UTC)

These technical changes sound like a good thing, but until they appear, we have to use what we've got. A list is one possibility, but a bad one. Every time someone makes a new hill article, they have to remember to add it to the list as well (perhaps several lists, sorted by different fields: geography, elevation, geology, and so on). That is much more work than having templates include categories that achieve the same end. Certainly it's a work-around that the developers hadn't intended, but that doesn't make it "abuse", but rather ingenious. Until there's a better solution, leave this category here. We gain nothing by deleting it. --Stemonitis 07:55, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I understand the intentions and the need, however let's state that it is a workaround and an improper use of a category. Ther obviously is a lack of possibilities in tables and categories. And I do not like the idea of tables that are hand drawn and make up more then half the code of a page. It just makes the whole thing extremely unreadable and generates problems as you have pointed out. I am not in favor to delete it, I would rather like to see a substitute in the mid term and would keep it until a better replacement is found! --BoP 07:27:27, 2005-09-07 (UTC)


 * Hear hear. --Mark J 18:11, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Post(?) vote close / pre vote count discussion



 * Is it over yet?: In honor of this occasion I have created a new award. To be honest now I feel a bit guilty unilaterly awarding this to 2 deserving recipients.  But, then again... what the hell. ¢ NevilleDNZ 03:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC) ¢

Please, don't feel disobliged, if you feel that this award is appropriate and deserved then you can put this on your user page.

I was posthumosly awarded the Reinvention of the wheel award.

¢ NevilleDNZ 03:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC) ¢


 * This is quite some fun to read, especially since this page was lacking images until now! P-) - but it might be the right time to sort yourself into "Category:Comedians" if you do not want to end in "Category:War" ... or to calm down. This dispute will not be resolved this way. - Still wondering if there might be a solution that suits both of you  --BoP 07:27:27, 2005-09-07 (UTC)


 * I'm not changing my original vote, but if some are hard pressed to use categories, I would much rather prefer seeing Category:7000 metre peaks, Category:6000 metre peaks, etc. than one massive category which will eventually become unwieldy and somewhat useless IMHO. Of course though, this will probably lead to Category:27,000 foot peaks, Category:26,000 foot peaks, etc. Even if the current category survives, it still needs to be renamed due to capitalization at least. Besides, I find the current wording very awkward. I really cannot stand the "km" notation at all. There are currently over 700 pages on mountains/peaks already with thousands more to go. Do you really want a single category containing thousands of articles? RedWolf 02:56, September 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the vote has closed, so this discussion is somewhat academic, but for what it is worth...
 * I am prepared to scale/weight my keep vote based on how many actual hill/mountain pages I have contributed (rather then just categorised). In other words make mine a null vote.  After all you are the guys who did all the hard work.  I am still coming to terms with a wiki admin calling the idea a pig's ear.
 * But on the technical topic of 700 mountains in one category, that make 75 mountains to a page, about 10-15 page, this sounds feasible. However unfortunately the highest would appear on the last page... It is questionable if this is desirable.  (BTW: Using existing wiki technology a 6100+|6200+|6300+|6400+|6500+|6600+|6700+|6800+|6900+ tool bar can be crafted for the top of the actual category and this tool bar would help vastly!)
 * Breaking these into country categories can be automated via the template, even adding the full/prefered country name. (And so the "inconsistency between nouns and adjectives" problem could be fixed here also by inserting standard nouns and/or adjectives from a lookup template)
 * I see (km) is unnatural for mountain height, this (km) can be dropped from the cat name, just as was done with the original Cat: British Hills by Height (1000 ft) now it was called just Category: British Hills by Height.
 * The capitalisation of "Elevation" to "elevation" wont receive any objections from my null vote, I see this is the norm elsewhere.
 * wrt to your idea of Category:7000 metre peaks, Category:6000 metre peaks etc. I see that some templates do actually employ a trick where they split the century from the year.  In the case of elevation of the highest 1000 mountains globally you could have a custom infobox which these mountains use.  eg  .  This could easily be used to autogenerate the sorted category you want.  But the page would need to be named something like Category:6000 metre peaks, and the index on the category page would still be only one digit, 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 being hundreds of meters above the 6000m mark. (I am suspecting that there are a lot (100s) of "uncharted" 6000m peaks in Asia yet to be marked on a map.)
 * BTW: I was impressed with 27,000m Olympus Mons on Mars. It has virtually (almost) no atmosphere at the top.  If at the end of this we must use lists, I will manually create a manual list of the 10 highest known mountains and manually include both Everest and Olympus Mons and some other vital stats (manually), hopefully this list wont grow so fast :-).
 * The whole infobox/category/sort strategy would be based on having a few standard info boxes, when contributors can add basic raw data. All the associated sorted categorys would happen automatically, (except for off scale exceptions, such as mountains on mars etc)
 * Cheers - ¢ NevilleDNZ 08:19, 8 September 2005 (UTC) ¢ (ps. it is very hard to brain storm new ideas when the CfD gun is being held to your head :-

Given that I am going to have the entire book thrown at me anyhow, here is another workaround for sorting height higher then 10,000ft, (or 1,000m in Britian). The issue is the first character is the only one listed in the sorted index,... so

⒑ for 1000+ m, ⒒ for 1100+ m, ⒓ for 1200+ m, ⒔ for 1300+ m, ⒕ for 1400+ m, ⒖ for 1500+ m, ⒗ for 1600+ m, ⒘ for 1700+ m, ⒙ for 1800+ m, ⒚ for 1900+ m, ⒛ for 2000+ m

These will sort perfectly, and the index will only ever show the first character. (Which happens to be 2 digits that we need). Ironically some cultures actually have a special word for these numbers. eg Ethopian. But I think using Ethopian script would be a tad confusing, even though their numbers do sort perfectly well.

This is more effective then using a ">" for heights that go off scale.

¢ NevilleDNZ 14:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC) ¢


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Category:Wikipedian perl programmers

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 13:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

This category is covered better by Category:User perl.
 * Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 02:30, 2005 September 1 (UTC)
 * Merge then. I'd be in favor if deleting "user perl" but I suppose I'm in the minority there. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 07:16, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete. Another useless vanity page for the clique-minded. 12.73.201.110 12:45, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. siafu 22:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge. -Seth Mahoney 01:15, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete almost all Wikipedian categories. -Splash 01:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete, empty. But could somebody explain how Wikipedian categories are harmful? N (t/c) 14:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * They're not, but when they are empty and duplicated, why keep it? --Kbdank71 13:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


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category:Reservoirs in the UK

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 13:55, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

This should be renamed category:Reservoirs in the United Kingdom, in line with its parent and the vast majority of UK categories. CalJW 01:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. No argument. siafu 22:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. Category titles has said the same. -Splash 01:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename, yes. Proto t c 10:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Fictional Celts

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was no consensus (no change) --Kbdank71 13:57, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Supposed to contain various fictional characters of Celtic origin. Actually contains eight articles, seven of which are Asterix characters, and one is Sláine (comics), a different comics character. If allowed to proceed this way, this will effectively become Category:Asterix characters. If there are many articles about Asterix characters, such a category will make more sense than this one. (Note also that not all Asterix characters are Celtic, but we don't currently have any articles about non-Celtic Asterix characters who are completely fictional.) &mdash; J I P | Talk 05:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if it was changed into, then characters like Cuchulainn and Taliesyn could be added to it. Then again, perhaps they would be better in a separate category. Grutness...  wha?  05:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Should be divided between Category:Celtic mythology and Category:Asterix. Then delete it. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 07:16, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. Definitely don't merge mythological categories with fictional ones.  -Sean Curtin 19:18, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak keep per Sean Curtin. siafu 22:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete to avoid confusion. Celt sub-categories and sub-subs have this covered i.e., Celtic legendary creatures. Marskell 11:55, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


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Category:Ashkenazi Jews

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:18, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

A legitimate category to be sure, but not at all useful from a WP perspective. To quote myself at Category talk:Ashkenazi Jews:
 * In my view, this category is patently ridiculous. It purports to categorize individuals based upon a criterion which is more than superficial, but less than substantial.  Ashkenazim aren't noteworthy or non-noteworthy on the basis of their "ashenazi'uth".  This is analogous to creating categories such as Category:British personalities of Jutish origin, Category:British personalities of Danish origin, Category:British personalities of Celtic origin, Category:British personalities of Anglian origin, Category:British personalities of Sēaxon origin, Category:British personalities of Częsky origin and the like.  In short, while such categories can certainly be created, and people artificially jammed into them, ultimately they serve no useful purpose.  While certainly there are about a half-dozen people who are notable specifically because of their Ashknaziuth, this category will end up being essentially a wastebasket category.  No offense to Ashkenazim, but a distinct category of this type is ultimately pointless.

Tomer <sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK 08:51, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

SlimVirgin <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 01:18, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Overcategorization (which I'm interpretting as being "per nom" here). siafu 22:28, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Just because. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 23:33, 2005 September 1 (UTC)
 * Delete. Silly, pointless, too much categorization. Lulu, it's time philosophers with moles put in an appearance.
 * When books start being written about philosophers with moles and they become a serious field of study, it would rate a category. -- Samuel Wantman 08:18, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

DavidFarmbrough 17:18, September 2, 2005 (BST)
 * Delete. It is probably not worth even preserving the information in a list rather than a category because it is too difficult (and of questionable use or interest) to determine to what extent the persons concerned are members of this group.
 * Delete. Over-categorization. Jayjg <sup style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 23:28, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. This is a well-established, separate ethnicity with its own language (Yiddish), its own traditional cuisine, its own set of genetic diseases (like many other relatively close-knit human cultures with a genetic bottleneck effect), its own learning culture, etc., etc. ... A couple of more relevant and academically honest category to compare with than Category:British personalities of Sēaxon origin and Category:British personalities of Jutish origin (?!?!!) would be Category:Sikhs and Category:Tamil people. Do you also suggest to raze those categories? -- Olve 01:29, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep.Tomer's arguments are flawed. Askenazi Jews are nothing like Category:British personalities of Jutish origin, Category:British personalities of Danish origin, etc... For all the reasons mentioned by Olve above.  The Askenazi are a Diaspora with a separate culture.  If that culture is slowly being assimilated into other cultures, that is not a reason to delete the category.  I would categorize my late grandmother as an Askenazi, but not myself.  I don,t think anyone has to worry about this category getting too big. Also, I am concerned by the way "useless" and "pointless" is thrown around here at CfD.  I think it is disrespectful of the people who created and populated these categories.  It doesn't say anything more than "I don't like this category".  A useless and pointless category for you may be useful and on-point for someone else.  A better argument would be to explain why the category MUST be deleted to maintain the integrity of Wikipedia.  If you can't make that argument, then let the categories you find "pointless" continue for those who don't find it pointless.  -- Samuel Wantman 07:08, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think they can be described as a 'disapora with a separate culture', just thinking of one example, Sidney James this seems completely inaccurate. The argument about it being impossible to define members of this category also stands. DavidFarmbrough 09:30, 5 September 2005 (BST)


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