Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Atlantis: The Lost Empire/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:58, 9 November 2011.

Atlantis: The Lost Empire

 * Nominator(s): DrNegative (talk) 01:44, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Since the previous nomination failed from a Copyscape review of text that I was not aware had been copy/pasted, I have rewrote the offending text and made other improvements for a second attempt at FAC. Thank you ahead of time for your comments. DrNegative (talk) 01:44, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ranges should use endashes
 * Done. DrNegative (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * FN 32: formatting
 * Removed author link which was causing brackets. DrNegative (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * check for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
 * Removed double period from citation. DrNegative (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Check wikilinking in footnotes for consistency
 * Added wikilink which was missing from citation. DrNegative (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * What makes this a high-quality reliable source? This? This? This? This?
 * Filmtracks.com - I believe that the recognition mentioned here from our own page qualifies it as reliable. Recognition from Film Score Monthly, Entertainment Weekly, and Variety Magazine is to me notable enough to justify it as so. DrNegative (talk) 02:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Laughingplace.com - This site is been a news source for all things Disney since 1995. They have a live Podcast, radio show, a magazine, and frequently report on Disney film premieres with photos and interviews of the actual cast and production crews. Also, notable news sites like Orlando Sentinel have used the site as a source. DrNegative (talk) 02:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * RottenTomatoes.com - RT is one of the most popular and widely known film review sites on the internet. The film's project Manual_of_Style not only allows but recommends it as a source for general critical consensus within a film article's critical response section. Notable film critics and news sites continue to reference it a gauge of consensus as to how well a film did from a critical standpoint. DrNegative (talk) 02:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * ReelViews.net - This is a site owned and maintained from notable web-critic James Berardinelli. Along with his site, he has also had books published which featured his site reviews. Notable film critic Roger Ebert has wrote his book forwards and considers him "the best of the Web-based critics." Rotten Tomatoes also considers him a "Top Critic", a title which they reserve for only the most notable film critics around the world. DrNegative (talk) 02:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * GateWorld.com - Founded in 1999, this site has become most popular site on the internet concerning the Stargate franchise. Several notable media organizations have mentioned the site including; Entertainment Weekly, Chicago Tribune, and The Vancouver Province. DrNegative (talk) 02:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * FN 95: page formatting
 * Book does not have page numbers, so I removed pages from template and added a url to excerpt in Google books for verification. DrNegative (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't need total page numbers in Bibliography. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. DrNegative (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I looked up the film in Film Index International, which is published by the British Film Institute, since it can provide a good list of references. In particular, the August 2001 issue of Cinefantastique and the May 2001 issue of Creative Screenwriting each have several articles that appear useful. Neither issue is referenced in the article. Did you have a chance to vet them? Not all information about a film will be available online. You can see the list of references here. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 18:18, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments Erik. The only source out of your list which I have looked over is the short Cinefantastique article. Although it is interesting in discussing Pomeroy's history as a Disney animator and briefly his character design of Milo, I did not feel there was anything noteworthy for inclusion into the article in addition to what was already mentioned about it in the cast section or in this source from which it came from. I could go on into more detail about it, but with the article's length, I felt it would be unnecessary for the reader's comprehension of the film from an encyclopedic standpoint.


 * The two Starburst references, as well as the Empire and Sight and Sound references, were film reviews which coincided with the international UK release date in November 2001 and the UK DVD release later. Usually, I try to keep reviews from the film's country of origin as recommend in the style guide unless the foreign reviews offer something substantial from a standpoint of thematics not already mentioned in the article. The May 2001 issue of Creative Screenwriting however I have not seen and would like the get my hands on it, but I am unsure as if it would offer anything noteworthy aside from what Tab Murphy has already mentioned about writing the film within the multitudes of sources I already have on him.


 * I completely agree with you when you say, "Not all information about a film will be available online." FA's should never rely solely on online sources, but about 50% of the prose in this article is derived from sources which are offline. So, I am unsure what you are trying to imply in that regard. Now, I could pull out written scholarly sources all day as to how juggernauts like Lion King, Toy Story, and Shrek changed the animated film industry forever, but as far as this little critical and financial flop released in the midst of them, no one really cared enough to write about it. It's tough. DrNegative (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not too worried about the reviews; there's always plenty for a mainstream film like this. :) Cinefantastique is addressed. As for Creative Screenwriting, I agree that you have a lot about writing already. All I meant about print sources is that part of the featured article criteria is to be thorough in surveying the relevant literature. Some sources are rather tucked away. (For future reference, I've been able to get page shots of periodicals like Creative Screenwriting and Cinefantastique, so just let me know!) Google can be pretty useful, though. I am wondering, how much did you vet Google Books and Scholar Search? My approach is to review the top results within a given year. For example, the top results for this shows something that could replace the reference used for the Nadia passage in the article. I outlined the approach a little bit at User:Erik/Research. I'll also read the article for clarity and either make easy changes or ask you about certain passages. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 20:59, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this is useful background about Whedon's initial involvement too, since the article does not mention anything about the treatment. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 21:07, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I added a short bit about Whedon and cited the book you linked into the Writing section. DrNegative (talk) 21:43, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As for searches with Google Books and Google Scholar, I used them both heavily to find the book sources which were used in the article, about 7 of them I believe. I did stumble across the Nadia controversy in an anime book on Google, but it basically summarized the same information which Anime News Network reported on the issue. I was also being very careful to avoid undue weight with this topic too. However, I could swap the sources though or add it alongside. If you could shoot me link or a personal email through Wikipedia of the location of the Creative Screenwriting capture, it would be appreciated. I would like to look it over even for the sake of redundancy. DrNegative (talk) 21:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I added the book detailing the Nadia controversy along with a direct quote from Wise in response to the claims. DrNegative (talk) 22:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose I noticed that this hasn't been supported or opposed by anyone, and I'm rather a fan of the movie, but unfortunately I cannot support this. The article has a number of awkward phrasings. "Many millennia later in 1914, Milo Thatch (Michael J. Fox) is a cartographer and linguist at the Smithsonian Institution." is one. That section has a few more. I just don't think that the clarity is there in this article. Consider taking it back to GOCE and having someone look at it specifically for clarity and sentence flow.  S ven M anguard   Wha?  15:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In addition to a number of fixes suggested below, I have requested another copy-edit from the guild. DrNegative (talk) 08:27, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment (leaning oppose): I agree with Sven about this, it needs a copyedit. A couple issues, which I will add as I find them to avoid edit conflicts
 * Lead
 * "The film features the voice talents of Michael J. Fox, Cree Summer, James Garner, Claudia Christian, Corey Burton, Don Novello, Phil Morris, Jacqueline Obradors, Leonard Nimoy, John Mahoney, Florence Stanley, David Ogden Stiers, and Jim Varney in his final role." -- This seems overly long for the lead; Milo and Kida's voice actors, definitely... Rourke, probably. Whitmore... maybe. But I doubt the voice actors of Mole and the other supporting characters need to be mentioned in the lead.
 * The plot summary in the lead seems awfully short.
 * "At the time of its release, the film had made use of more computer-generated imagery (CGI) than any of Disney's previous animated films and remains one of the few to have been shot in anamorphic format." -- Awkward. Perhaps "At the time of its release, the film had made use of more computer-generated imagery (CGI) than any of Disney's previous animated films; the film also remains one of the few to have been shot in anamorphic format."


 * Plot
 * Overlinking -- You already linked Atlantis and linguist in the lead. Mercenaries is a fairly common word.
 * Fixed. DrNegative (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As identified by Sven, "Many millennia later in 1914, Milo Thatch (Michael J. Fox) is a cartographer and linguist at the Smithsonian Institution." -- Perhaps "In 1914 (several thousand years later), Milo Thatch (Michael J. Fox), a cartographer and linguist at the Smithsonian Institution, believes that his research has revealed the location of "The Shepherd's Journal", an ancient manuscript that allegedly reveals the way to Atlantis" (this merges two sentences).
 * Fixed. DrNegative (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "She takes him to Preston B. Whitmore (John Mahoney), an eccentric millionaire who, owing a debt to Milo's late grandfather, has funded a successful effort to find the journal and now with it in hand, recruits Milo to decipher it and lead an expedition to find Atlantis." -- Perhaps "She takes him to eccentric millionaire Preston B. Whitmore (John Mahoney), who has funded a successful effort to find and retrieve the journal to repay his debt to Milo's deceased grandfather. Whitmore recruits Milo to decipher it and lead an expedition to find Atlantis."
 * Fixed. DrNegative (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "... a military man who led the expedition to recover the journal." -- Was he the only leader? I think "the" would probably work better. Also, "military man" does not come across as especially encyclopedic.
 * Fixed. DrNegative (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Among the crew are; Vinnie (Don Novello), the crew's demolition expert, Mole (Corey Burton), the geology specialist, Dr. Joshua Sweet (Phil Morris), the ship's medical officer, Audrey (Jacqueline Obradors), a tomboyish mechanic, and Cookie (Jim Varney), the ship's western cook." -- Erm... this doesn't come across especially well. Perhaps something like "The crew includes Vinnie (Don Novello), the demolition expert; Mole (Corey Burton), the geology specialist; Dr. Joshua Sweet (Phil Morris), the ship's medical officer; Audrey (Jacqueline Obradors), a tomboyish mechanic; and Cookie (Jim Varney), the ship's western cook." Also, does having long hair disqualify Audrey as a tomboy?
 * Fixed. DrNegative (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "They set out in a massive submarine, the Ulysses, and as they approach the entrance to Atlantis, the Ulysses is attacked and destroyed by the Leviathan, a huge robotic guardian of Atlantis." -- Run on. Perhaps "They set out in the Ulysses, a massive submarine, which is later attacked and destroyed by the robotic guardian of Atlantis as it approaches the entrance to Atlantis."
 * Fixed. DrNegative (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * on foot and by vehicle --> Which kind of vehicle?
 * Removed. DrNegative (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "They are greeted by Kida, now a young woman in her appearance only, ..." -- Perhaps "They are greeted by Kida, who despite her age looks like a young woman, ..."
 * Fixed. DrNegative (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that's enough for now... I agree with Sven that someone from the Guild would be able to help you pass 1A. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Media spotcheck (my first, so another editor should feel free to take a look)
 * It is preferable to have a link to where you obtained the poster for File:Atlantis The Lost Empire poster.jpg, at the very least to ensure that it is the correct poster (or one of them)
 * Added link to source. DrNegative (talk) 08:16, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * File:Carlsbad Caverns rail pic.JPG looks fine.
 * File:Atlantis Milo kida production.jpg has a strong enough rationale, methinks. However, the commentary underneath should not introduce new information. Perhaps add that information to the bit about Milo?
 * Moved text to Milo's paragraph. DrNegative (talk) 08:16, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * File:Atlantiswidescreencap.gif -- What makes this particular screenshot so valuable to discussing the widescreen format? Doesn't seem especially "immersive" as a still. Also, commentary underneath the image should not introduce new information.
 * File:Atlantispropsubmarine.jpg -- Assuming OTRS checks out (don't have that user right). Once again, commentary underneath the image should not introduce new information.
 * Added new info to section alongside. DrNegative (talk) 08:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * File:Atlantiscrystalchamberclip.ogg -- 3:45 = 225 seconds. Therefore, this sound clip should be 22 seconds at the longest, per Manual of Style/Music samples (30 seconds or 10%, whichever is shorter). Also, I'm not entirely convinced that the sample "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding" (FUC8)
 * Removed. DrNegative (talk) 08:16, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Album cover for the soundtrack would be allowed, methinks, as it doesn't have its own standalone article
 * Actually, MOS:FILM states that the current consensus from the film project is against using a soundtrack cover pic due to the film poster being "sufficient for identification of the topic". DrNegative (talk) 08:16, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, a'ight. Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:07, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's it for my media spotcheck. If I've done something wrong, FAC regulars please feel free to point it out. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:57, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Drive-by comment: This doesn't appeared prepared in terms of MoS compliance. Problems with image captions, punctuation on quotations-within-quotations, end punctuation on complete-sentence quotations, etc. -- Laser brain  (talk)  16:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.