Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bronwyn Oliver/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 12:47, 3 September 2012.

Bronwyn Oliver

 * Nominator(s): hamiltonstone (talk) 14:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because upon her suicide in 2006, Australia lost one of its most talented, hardest-working and engaging artists of her time. Any encounter with Oliver's work makes it hard to believe the degree of concentration and skill it took to realise these objects, constructed as they were from hard and unforgiving materials. Her works will endure for far longer than she, sadly, felt able to. hamiltonstone (talk) 14:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * What is VFLAA?
 * FN10, 27, 54: page formatting
 * FN48: don't italicize location, unless it's part of the name (is it?)
 * FN50: need endash on date range
 * Payes: more specific location? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:56, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nikki. All five items addressed. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:29, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Bronwyn_Oliver's_sculpture_"Vine".jpg doesn't have a complete non-free use rationale, and IMO is replaceable by a free image. --99of9 (talk) 12:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, and have removed the image. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:52, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Support: A well-written and fascinating biography of an artist of whom I had never heard. I am not well-versed in art, but I followed this very well and any questions I had were answered in the article. I have just a few small queries which do not affect my support and may be dismissed out of hand if you prefer! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "who would go on to become dean of the College in Sydney": Perhaps "who went on…"?
 * Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:03, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Her upbringing was in country New South Wales": I actually know what this means (cricket obsession has many rewards!), but wonder if it could be expressed more clearly for those unfamiliar with Australia?
 * Ended up redoing the para, removing this particular phrase. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:03, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "The often-recounted story is…": The only problem is that most readers will not know it is often recounted, and it ends up looking like a bit of extraneous hearsay. It may be better to say where the story came from.
 * I just got rid of the "often recounted" phrase, as I can't be sure when it was first reported. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "The artist lived in Haberfield, in Sydney's inner west…" Inner west what? And should that be hyphenated?
 * Redone and yes, it needed a hyphen. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:03, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Roslyn Oxley9 Gallery": Is there a link for this? If not, an explanation of what this was may be useful as I initially thought this was a typo!
 * Link and stub created. Unfortunately, no-one seems to know why the 9 is in the gallery's name. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:44, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * As a minor note, which it may not be possible to do anything about, I think the article would be slightly improved by an image of the artist herself (probably not possible) and a few more of her work to give the reader an idea what they are reading about. But there may be problems there too, and there is a link at the bottom, so this is not an issue at all.
 * I agree that these things would be useful. Unfortunately i don't live in either of the cities in which there are works on permanent public display (Sydney, Brisbane) - the only works that would attract freedom of panorama under Aust copyright law. I'm also not sure of the location of at least one of those works (Globe). As to a photo of her - I might approach Roslyn Oxley and see if she would consider releasing an image, but I have made similar approaches to artist estates or contacts in the past, with no success. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have commenced the process of contact with Oxley. Don't know if anything will come of it. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:44, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * A week on, and no response, so I'm doubting that anything will come of this. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * And as an aside, there seems little indication of why she committed suicide; but I suspect that little is known about her personal life, and less about the reasons why, and I imagine nothing can be done about that in this article. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Despite numerous obituaries, including three from people who knew her well (Howard, Fenner and Fink), no-one wrote about the reasons directly, although there were various allusions to her personality and to her relationship status. It was a hard section to write, staying within sources and avoiding joining dots if the sources did not. I think I've done all that is possible. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:03, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Upon reflection, though the sources offer nothing much, I have added a sentence that at least makes that a bit clearer. As it stood, the point was excessively abrupt. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And have added more (see response to Cas, below). hamiltonstone (talk) 13:03, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments This is a really interesting article. I've seen several of Oliver's works, but previously knew nothing about her - great work. My comments on the article are as follows:
 * What's the purpose of note 1? Is there a suggestion that the SMH got her middle name wrong in its obituary? (if not, this seems a good source for this information)
 * I was nervous that, despite multiple obituaries, only one person mentioned a middle name. I worried they could be wrong. However, I have since found an image of a cemetery memorial here, and am no longer concerned. Have removed. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Her creative interests were sparked early" - this is a bit awkward
 * Redrafted to read "Her creativity was nurtured from a young age." hamiltonstone (talk) 05:53, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "A rift subsequently developed between her and her family that resulted in her having no contact with them for 25 years" can anything be said about whatever caused this?
 * No. Oliver was very firm about not talking about it, as sources have stated. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "She graduated from the College of Fine Arts (COFA), then known as the Alexander Mackie College of Advanced Education" - this is confusing. Wouldn't she have graduated from the Alexander Mackie College of Advanced Education if this was the name of the institution at the time? I think that this should be flipped around to note that the institution later changed its name.
 * Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 06:54, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Was Bronwyn Oliver: mnemonic chords a book or an exhibition of her work?
 * It is the title of the essay in the 1995 survey of her work. I have treated it as the title of the publication (there isn't another title). I don't know if there was an exhibition by the same title, but the works illustrated in the publication were not all made around the same time, suggesting it may not have been an exhibition. Sorry not to be more definitive. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest specifying that it's the essay the article is referring to then (as a 'survey' of an artist's work can also be a fairly comprehensive exhibition). For what it's worth, the National Library of Australia's record for the work says only that it's an essay. Nick-D (talk) 11:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I take your point about the use of "survey". It now says "All 25 works included in the 1995 publication, Bronwyn Oliver: mnemonic chords,..." hamiltonstone (talk) 12:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Always occupied with, as the artist put it, "what materials will do", Hannah Fink considered that" - are you talking about Oliver's interest in metals, or Fink's? (Oliver's, I presume, but this wording is a bit unclear)
 * This now reads 'Oliver was always occupied with "what materials will do". Fink observed that "[f]rom the beginning,...' hamiltonstone (talk) 07:01, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "These would be built around moulds, twisting the metal into place with pliers, before severing it with wirecutters. Joins would be soldered or brazed (though in some pieces, the wire was woven)." - this is written in the passive voice (eg, the 'would be's)
 * Changed, htough I left a passive form in a previous sentence, as i prefer the sound of it. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Inner West is linked the second time it appears in the article
 * Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:27, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Oliver was not one to intellectualise her creativity, and preferred to talk about the process than the meaning of her creations" - please translate this into plain English ;)
 * I changed it to "Oliver was not one to intellectualise her creativity: she preferred to talk about the process of creating her artworks rather than their meanings." I hope that's plain enough. ;-) hamiltonstone (talk) 04:27, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That works for me Nick-D (talk) 11:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * What pattern did John McDonald see in Oliver's works? You note that he had views on this topic, but only describe Fink's Nick-D (talk) 05:53, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * My original intention had been to say that both saw the same kind of pattern in the works, but just quote Fink to represent what that view was. However, I have reconsidered it and re-worked the para, adding a few words on McDonald's approach. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Support My comments have now been addressed (though please note the extra suggestion above). Once again, great work with this article. Nick-D (talk) 11:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the careful reading and suggestions. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Comments  on comprehensiveness and prose reading though now .....Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Did you mean to leave her birth name bolded in the first section...?
 * I was following the general MOS principle of bolding a name by which the article subject was known when it first appears in the text, but have now followed the detailed advice at WP:FULLNAME, and moved the bold "Gooda" to the lead. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:44, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oliver was always occupied with "what materials will do". - did you mean "preoccupied" here? Odd choice of verb otherwise....or use something like "intrigued...?
 * Indeed. This was a hangover from a prevous construction, where "occupied" had a music to it, whereas now, it is, as you say, just odd. Changed. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:46, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Otherwise looking good - some of the obituaries have some touching notes - like leaving notes for the upcoming exhibition in one I found. But not necessary to add. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:37, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You are referring to Oxley interviewed by Creagh I think. Yes, they are touching. Significantly, Oxley's interview is the only snippet I have found that goes as far as indicating pre-meditation and also that the notes she left might have averred to suicide. I have reworked the passage and included that interview extract. But I'm finding this hard to craft, and welcome other views about whether I have improved the text or not. hamiltonstone (talk) 13:03, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it is a nice touch - bit of a broken para but gives it some poignancy. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.