Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ku Klux Klan/archive1

Ku Klux Klan
Self-nomination. This is a detailed and extensively footnoted article on a hot-button topic. It's just been through peer review, which gave some helpful comments leading to improvements. I think the photos are in pretty good shape legally; there is one that's claimed as fair use, Image:Lynching-of-michael-donald.jpg, and I've detailed in its image description page why I think it fits the guidelines at Fair use. What might perhaps arouse stronger feelings is that two of the pictures in the article are of lynching victims. These are not just random pictures of Klan lynchings --- they're both of great historical importance, and I think they follow the guidelines at Profanity.--Bcrowell 23:14, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Conditional Support - Some of the pictures are poorly arranged on the page, at least in Firefox @ 1600x1200. Nick Catalano (Talk) 01:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Can anyone suggest a good strategy to make it look nice at a variety of resolutions? NickCatal, are there any sections that look particularly good or bad at 1600x1200? I'm using 1280x1024.--Bcrowell 03:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

pamri 03:28, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * Support Object The content is good enough, but I have some nitpicks.
 * Rename sections to better reflect its contents. One has a vague title like Today and other has an unneccessarily long one like The Ku Klux Klan in the arts.
 * The Ku Klux Klan in the arts can surely be expanded to a para from the current 2 lines.
 * Switch to &#123;{inote}} for references and &#123;{mn}} for notes. See the Economy of India, for how it is done.
 * Some of the images like Image:Viola-liuzzo.jpg are marked PD based on some debatable assumptions. Probably, they can be marked as fair use or you can try to contact your primary source for more information.
 * Hi pamri -- Thanks for your comments! I've actually gone ahead and deleted the section on "The Ku Klux Klan in the arts," which has always been problematic; it was just acting as a magnet to attract lots of material about movies that just happened to have some content relating to the Klan. I've renamed the "Today" section to "The Ku Klux Klan today." Re the Liuzzo photo, as noted in its description page, the Detroit News apparently does not know the copyright owner either (all the other photos in the Detroit News article were credited, but this one wasn't). Although I think it would definitely qualify under fair use (not notably artistic, historically important, doesn't cut the commercial value of the original), I think that's unnecessary because it's almost certainly PD in the U.S., for the reasons given on the description page. Re the footnotes, can you fill me in on the relative pros and cons of the two styles? I've had another article accepted as an FA just recently with this style of footnotes, and I wasn't aware that it was an issue.--Bcrowell 17:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Its not mentioned how KKK influenced and was influenced by groups like Nation of Islam,Black Panthers,etc., "The Ku Klux Klan in the arts," is certainly needed, so you can either add a para and create a main article, which can be expanded or you can add everything in that article and link it from see also. You can probably experiment with right-aligning the images and see if it solves Nick's problem. If you switch to &#123;{inote}}, links to websites will go under references, inline citations(page nos.,etc.,) will be visible only in edit mode and you will be left with 7/8 notes and you don't have to deal with the pain of updating the order of references everytime you insert a reference. Of course, this is secondary to the other objections and can be worked on later. I will switch to support if the other objections are resolved. pamri 06:18, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi -- Thanks for explaining about inote; it sounds like a good idea to switch to that style. I doubt that the Klan was influenced by the NOI or BPP, since the Klan's priorities and traditions were set in 1866-1871 and 1915, long before those groups existed. If the Klan influenced the NOI or BPP, there is no mention of that in those two WP articles, but if you have a verifiable source of information saying that there was such an influence, I'd be happy to hear about it. It's true that, e.g., David Duke portrays his NAAWP as simply the white counterpart of the NAACP, but of course black civil rights groups don't buy the analogy, and that type of claim of symmetry is more of a feature of recent post-Klan white supremacist groups. I disagree that the section on the KKK in the arts is necessary.--Bcrowell 14:06, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm...after reading the documentation on inote, I don't think it's necessarily appropriate here. It sounds nice not to have to worry about the ordering of the notes when you move text around, but I don't think it would be desirable, in this article, to make the notes invisible.--Bcrowell 03:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It won't make the notes invisible, but only inline citations (page nos. referenced). You can still use &#123;{mn}} for the notes.pamri 03:41, August 25, 2005 (UTC)


 * Support Well written article. Haddock420 10:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong object. The post-World War II history is utterly inadequate. It omits, for example, any discussion of the Klan's role in supporting resistance to school desegregation and in attempts to disrupt voter registration drives; and it spends more text discussing COINTELPRO than on Klan activities during the decade that followed court-ordered desegregation. With regard to more contemporary material, it omits any mention of David Duke, and contains no discussion of the more media-savvy successor groups which avoid the Klan's name and most overtly offensive activities while continuing its paleopolitical activities. Monicasdude 14:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Monicasdude - Thanks for your comments. I had just recently moved a bunch of material, including the discussion of David Duke, from the KKK article into Notable Ku Klux Klan members in national politics, but in fact David Duke doesn't fit the criteria of the notable members article, so I've moved the discussion of him back. Thanks for the pointers about school desegregation and voter registration; I'll work on that ASAP. Re successor groups, I'm not sure if you're referring to the various current Klan groups (which are discussed) or to groups like Christian Identity, neo-Nazi groups, and racist skinheads, which are also mentioned, although they're only peripheral to the article's topic. In general, the article focuses on the time periods when the Klan was strongest and most influential, and had the greatest historical effects: 1866-1871, and 1915-1930.--Bcrowell 16:58, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I've moved the David Duke material back in, added to the discussion of the Klan's role in resisting the civil rights movement and voting rights, and added discussion of Klan resistance to court-ordered busing. Thanks for your comments, which have definitely led to an improvement in the article! I hope after seeing these changes you'll be willing to change your vote.--Bcrowell 17:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm still unsatisfied with the post-WWII discussion, which I don't think is well-developed enough. I think it needs more discussion as to both why the Klan regained strength -- most significantly, resistance to school desegregation -- and why resistance to it gained even more strength (the influence of Truman's integration of US military forces, and the effect that TV coverage of events had, especially after 1960). The successor organizations I mentioned are groups like this this one, http://www.southernmessenger.org/, whose current efforts are concentrated on (relatively) PR-savvy falsification of history and corruption of public discourse rather than brute force. Some are more adept at this than others; that one is not among the more adept). Monicasdude 23:06, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The web page at southernmessenger.org isn't a Klan site at all, AFAICT. When you talk about "successor organizations," are you talking about Klan organizations, or non-Klan organizations? The article is only about the Klan, not Aryan Nation, White Aryan Resistance, NAAWP, etc. Oh, I see, in your original comment you referred to "the more media-savvy successor groups which avoid the Klan's name." This article isn't about those groups at all. The white supremacy article would cover them.--Bcrowell 23:44, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think any extensive discussion of the successor organizations is necessary, but their growth (and surprising respectability in some circles) is a nontrivial factor in the "klassic" Klan(s)' contemporary insignificance. Monicasdude 00:20, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, but there's already a brief mention of that at the end of the section "Later Ku Klux Klans." I think part of the problem is that it's easy to miss things like that because of the way the article is organized. There's a lot of overlap between "The Ku Klux Klan today" and "Later Ku Klux Klans," and also between "Later Ku Klux Klans" and "Political influence." I think I'll do a little reorganization.--Bcrowell 02:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Support. A well done article on a disturbing subject.--Alabamaboy 20:34, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Well-researched and well-written. Though many editors participate, Bcrowell deserves special credit for improving (and maintaining) this non-contentitous article on a contentious topic. -Willmcw 21:13, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Provided Raul never puts this on the front page, that would suck like nothing has ever sucked before. Redwolf24 (talk) 02:44, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support! Assuming for the sake of argument that it achieves FA status, I agree that the result of front-paging it would probably be horrific. Even under normal conditions, this article gets vandalized much more often than any other article I've had experience with.--Bcrowell 05:37, 26 August 2005 (UTC)