Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Oregon Caves National Monument and Preserve/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:12, 30 April 2017.

Oregon Caves National Monument and Preserve

 * Nominator(s): Finetooth (talk) 03:32, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

This article is about an unusual marble cave and its surrounds, which lie in a remote sector of the Siskiyou Mountains near the Oregon–California border in the United States. The cave, promoted by hucksters in the pre-monument days and boosters dressed in animal skins in the 1920s, has been a popular tourist attraction since the late 19th century. In addition to its "show cave", the monument includes the only subterranean stream in the National Wild and Scenic Rivers System, a chateau listed as a National Historic Landmark, and a Douglas-fir tree with a circumference of 41 feet (13 m). Finetooth (talk) 03:32, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. These are my edits. The writing is more accessible than the caves! - Dank (push to talk) 15:47, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the edits and support. Finetooth (talk) 17:29, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Image review
 * Suggest scaling up the map. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:21, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks I bumped it to 300px. That creates a bit of a text sandwich but still looks OK to me. I'm open to further suggestion. Finetooth (talk) 14:24, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If you think it's still too small, I could remove the Belly of the Whale image and make the map even bigger. Finetooth (talk) 03:14, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks fine, but it would be preferable to use upright to scale per WP:IMGSIZE. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:50, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I've replaced the fixed width with upright 1.4. Finetooth (talk) 02:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Support Comments from Syek88
This article is clearly in very good shape. I have some comments about the history of the legal status of the monument and preserve.
 * The lead says "A separate visitor center in Cave Junction accounts for 4 acres (1.6 ha) of the total." But the National Defence Authorization Act 2015, at Section 3041(b)(3), provided: "Boundary adjustment.--The boundary of the National Monument and Preserve is modified to exclude approximately 4 acres of land--(A) located in the City of Cave Junction; and (B) identified on the map as the 'Cave Junction Unit'." It seems that the Cave Junction site is no longer part of the Monument and Preserve?
 * This is a good catch. I've altered the acreage (with a citation) to reflect the total listed in December 2016 by the Land Resources Division of the NPS, and it is 4554 rather than 4558. That is 4 acres smaller than my earlier claim, and it appears that the visitor center in Cave Junction accounts for that. I need to poke about some more to make sure the lower visitor center is still open and then re-add mention of it. Finetooth (talk) 23:17, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It's run by a community development group under contract to the NPS. I added this to the article, with a citation. Done with this one, I think. Finetooth (talk) 00:42, 17 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "In 2014, the monument was expanded by about 4,000 acres (1,600 ha)" - While this is what the newspaper said I don't think it is correct. The monument was not expanded. A national preserve was tacked onto the existing monument. The 2014 changes did not invoke the Antiquities Act. Later parts of the article draw a clear (and correct) distinction between monument and preserve.
 * You are right. I changed "monument" to "protected area" in the lede. Finetooth (talk) 22:45, 16 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "An additional visitor center occupies 4 acres (1.6 ha) in the city of Cave Junction." - The reference for this sentence is pre-2014. It might be good to get an updated reference for the status of the visitor center after the 2015 changes that seemed to have excised it from the park.
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 00:42, 17 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Might it be worthwhile pointing out that the 2014 "expansion" came at the expense of the Rogue-Siskiyou National Forest, in which the 4,000 acres previously sat? (2015 Act, Section 3041(b)(2)(B)). This would explain to the reader the passing reference to the new land having been "managed formerly by the U.S. Forest Service".
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 02:46, 17 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Is there anything interesting about the politics of the 2014 expansion?
 * Not that I'm aware of. Did you have anything in particular in mind? Finetooth (talk) 03:08, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It just seemed peculiar to me that this measure would be included in an omnibus defence spending bill. I wondered if a powerful local congressman had slipped it in, or whether perhaps the group of seven or so new or expanded parks was an environmental measure of the Obama administration and a defence spending bill was a convenient vehicle to slip it into. But none of this is necessary for the article, especially if we don't know the answers. Syek88 (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I thought maybe you were thinking of formal opposition to park expansion on economic or ideological grounds, but I haven't seen evidence of that. For the local people, the park seems to be a generally welcome money-maker. In this article you can see two senators and one representative who were happy with the expansion as well. The preserve would seem to have nothing to do with national defense, but there it is. Finetooth (talk) 20:20, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * That's all. Syek88 (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm now marking this as a support as I have nothing of significance outstanding. One minor thing: the section entitled "Climate" twice uses the term "main unit", which might now be redundant. Syek88 (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support and for your really helpful suggestions, including mention of those two anachronistic "main unit"s, which I have now replaced.

Comments from Brianboulton
There is apparently no link to this FAC page on the article's talkpage. Were the nomination procedures fully carried out?
 * I don't understand what has gone wrong, but you are right; the FAC info is missing from the article's talk page. When I try to re-add it, the template appears poised to create archive 2, which I think would compound the difficulties. Can someone here help me with this? I'm flummoxed. Finetooth (talk) 15:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I've now posted a "help" note about this issue to the FAC talk page. Finetooth (talk) 17:55, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Help arrived and solved the problem. Done, thanks to RileyBugz and Woody. Finetooth (talk) 02:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I've assembled these comments over the past few days, and some may have been raised and resolved through other reviews – my apologies if this is the case. Mainly they refer to points of style and requests for minor clarification. I am delighted with Finetooth's overdue return to the FAC page, and look forward to seeing this article grace the main page in due course.

Lead:
 * "The climate is generally mild even at the cave's elevation of about 4,000 feet (1,200 m) above sea level, but icicles can form at the cave entrance, and winter snow sometimes blocks the park highway." Detail barely leadworthy,  and not first para material. Maybe a brief climatological mention further down the lead.
 * Removed. Finetooth (talk) 16:04, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "After passage of the Antiquities Act by the United States Congress, President William Howard Taft established Oregon Caves National Monument, to be managed by the United States Forest Service, in 1909". I'd slightly reorder this sentence, e.g.: "After passage of the Antiquities Act by the United States Congress in 1909, President William Howard Taft established Oregon Caves National Monument, to be managed by the United States Forest Service".
 * Agreed and done except that I moved the comma after 1909 two words to the left since the Antiquities Act became law in 1906. Finetooth (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)Finetooth (talk) 16:04, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Suggest "The popularity of the automobile..." → " The growing popularity of the automobile..."
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "The Park Service, which assumed control..." – I assume this is the National Park Service previously referred.
 * Yes. I've now added (NPS) after the first use in the lede and used NPS in the many instances thereafter in the main text. I did the same with United States Forest Service (USFS). Finetooth (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "In addition, the River Styx, which flows through the cave and emerges as Cave Creek, was named to the National Wild and Scenic Rivers System." I'm slightly mystified by the phraseology of this sentence. What does "named to" actually mean? And how does the name "River Styx", with its classical allusion, fit the National Wild and Scenic Rivers System?
 * I changed "named" to "added" and added info about the name origin and its relation to the Greek Styx. I added a sentence briefly explaining the protection afforded by the listing. I hope this clarifies sufficiently. Finetooth (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "that formed in marble"; Suggest delete "that"
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "In addition to cave touring..." The "In addition" formulation is a bit tired, and has been used previously in this lead. Suggest begin the last  paragraph "Activities at the park include..."
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 16:51, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Clarify that the 13 feet refers to the tree's width – "thickest" is a little imprecise".
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 16:51, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Geography
 * "...Oregon–California border in Josephine County, Oregon.[7] Oregon Caves has..." Can some rewording be done to avoid this close repetition of the state name?
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 19:51, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * On further reflection, the following two sentences are unrelated to the site's "geography", and I wonder if this basic information is worth including?
 * I removed them but re-added brief mention of the off-site visitor center to the "Activities" section.


 * Mount Elijah: consider a redlink or creating a stub.
 * Redlinked. Finetooth (talk) 19:51, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "In December 2014, the U.S. Congress enlarged the protected area that includes the cave and changed its name to Oregon Caves National Monument and Preserve." It's not clear from the text what the name was, before it was changed in 2014.
 * Clarified. Finetooth (talk) 20:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "This means that two distinct contiguous units of the national park system share the Oregon Caves name". An "enlargement" does not automatically suggest "two distinct contiguous units". some further clarification required, perhaps?
 * Clarified by rewriting the paragraph. Please check to see if it now makes better sense. Finetooth (talk) 20:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

History
 * Insert the word "had" before "emigrated" in third paragraph.
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 22:20, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "Isolated and difficult to reach, the monument attracted only 1,800 visitors in 1920". As you've jumped 10 years, I'd expand this sentence slightly: "Isolated and difficult to reach, the monument initially attracted few visitors – by 1920 only 1800 for the year" – or similar?
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 22:20, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "a cave-formation washing system"? Further clarification please.
 * Yes, it sounds a bit strange. It was a system of pipes and hoses that allowed the staff to wash mud out of the cave with water. I altered the main text to clarify and and added a note of further clarification. Finetooth (talk) 22:20, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "In 2001, the Park Service began running the cave tours formerly offered by private contractors" I had not realised that despite the caves being owned and managed by public bodies since the early 20thC, the tours were still operated by private companies until 2001. Perhaps make this point clear a little earlier.
 * Not done yet. I need to look at my sources again and see if I can sort this out. Finetooth (talk) 23:52, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. I added a sentence to the eighth paragraph of the "History" section that explains that the public-private contract of 1923 was the first of many similar contracts extending into the 21st century. Finetooth (talk) 02:36, 23 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "a non-profit based in Cave Junction..." Word missing? A non-profit (....) based in...etc
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 22:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Suggest (final paragraph): "...transferred from the Rogue River – Siskiyou National Forest to create the National Monument and Preserve".
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 22:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Geology and paleontology
 * "Of the more than 3,900 caves managed by the National Park Service, only those in Oregon Caves National Monument and Preserve, Kings Canyon National Park, and Great Basin National Park have marble caves." I'm slightly unhappy with this wording as it stands. Perhaps begin: "Of the more than 3,900 cave systems managed..." etc? Otherwise we have caves containing caves.
 * Changed to "cave systems". Finetooth (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "cut through the marble in places" → "has cut through the marble in places"? Also watch close repetitiion of "in places" in next line, and also the return of "in addition" (I know, I know...)
 * Changed to "have cut". Rewrote the paragraph to eliminate the repetition. Finetooth (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * My punctuation sense would delete the comma after "mountain beaver", but this may be a transatlantic preference. I'll defer on this one.
 * It's a mistake rather than a preference. I removed it. Finetooth (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Climate
 * Returning to a point I raised re. the lead: the second paragraph here gives great detail about temperatures etc at Cave junction, which is 20 miles away from the caves and at a much lower altitude, so I wonder about the necessity for this detail in an article about the caves.
 * Removed. Finetooth (talk) 20:12, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Flora and fauna
 * "Five at-risk species are found in the cave" – suggest "Five at-risk bat species are found in the cave" for clarity.
 * Done. Finetooth (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Activities
 * "...must not take any clothing or equipment into Oregon Caves that entered any other cave or mine." Inset "had previously" before "entered".
 * Added "have previously" since the problem is ongoing. Finetooth (talk) 23:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Do we need to repeat the "six-story" description?
 * Removed. Finetooth (talk) 23:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Generally: this section describes "facilities" rather than "activities", and this may be a more suitable title.
 * Changed to "Recreation and lodging". I have an aversion to the word "facilities", which is too much of a catch-all. I'm open to other suggestions if my new title doesn't seem right. Finetooth (talk) 23:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Happy to support when these points have been considered. Brianboulton (talk) 08:01, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I think I have addressed everything in one way or another. Glad to be back and glad for this review. Finetooth (talk) 02:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Support: Happy with all your responses, and pleased to add my support. Brianboulton (talk) 20:32, 23 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your thorough review, which was very helpful, and thank you for your support. Finetooth (talk) 23:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: I think we still need a source review unless I've missed it. If not, one can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Source review - looks good overall, only a few queries. I've reviewed this version of the article.
 * What's "Los Angeles Times Service"? (ref 12)
 * Good catch. I don't know what it refers to. Furthermore, the claim it supports is minor and unnecessary. I removed both, and this leaves the sense of the claim intact, supported by ref 3. Finetooth (talk) 04:59, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I wasn't saying you needed to remove it—that was mainly my curiosity. It's a perfectly good citation if you'd like to keep it. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 08:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * What makes http://kalmiopsiswild.org a reliable source? (ref 8)
 * It isn't. I removed it and the minor claim that it supported. The sense of the claim is left intact, supported by ref 2. Finetooth (talk) 05:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * "A National System" does not make it clear that it's a government website. (ref 14)
 * The government agency, the publisher in this case, is the National Wild and Scenic Rivers System. Created by the U.S. Congress in 1968, it is managed by an interagency council with members from the U.S. Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and the National Park Service. The URL is a dot-gov and the agencies' logos appear on the cited web page. I added the interagency info to the publisher's name in the citation, but that may be overkill. I'm open to suggestion. Finetooth (talk) 05:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * "Cave Photographs" and "Off-Trail Caving Tours" need publishers. (refs 49 and 61)
 * Added the publisher, the National Park Service in both cases. Finetooth (talk) 05:14, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:03, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Support on sourcing! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 08:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 12:12, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.