Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roekiah/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:Ian Rose 10:01, 12 January 2014 (UTC).

Roekiah

 * Nominator(s): — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:15, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm back from a very productive trip to Jakarta with a new article. I know I've previously said that I expected Asmara Moerni to be our next Indonesia FA, but I guess I was wrong. While at Sinematek I gained access to several articles which gave more information about Roekiah, the biggest film star of pre-independence Indonesia. This has helped me build the most detailed biography of her available (in any language).

This article had a GA review from Grapple X and a PR by SchroCat and Cassianto. As far as I know, we have never had an FA on an Indonesian woman. Time for a first. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:15, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Support – PR reviewer who was satisfied then and more than satisfied now. This is a nicely composed article on a subject which is seriously lacking at FA. I congratulate Crisco 1492 for his work and for bringing this here.  Cassianto Talk   14:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the PR and support, Cass. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:49, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * FN28: doubled period
 * Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 18:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Why is Imong after Poesaka
 * Fixed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 18:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in whether you include locations for books. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Got two. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 18:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks Nikki, I think I got everything. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 18:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Support. A fellow traveller at PR, where my concerns were happily dealt with. - SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for everything, Schro. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 18:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Support Comments from Jim Just a couple of queries before I support  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  16:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Rd Djoemala, Rd Mochtar &mdash; Is "Rd" a name, a honorific or an abbreviation (it's followed by a full stop in Djoemala's article)? I'm confused.
 * Honorific (short for "Raden", a title used by the Javanese nobility). I'll add a footnote. The full-stop in Djoemala's article is from my Canadian fingers trying to type the Queen's English.
 * couple took a month hiatus &mdash;reads oddly "month's hiatus" or "month break" perhaps?
 * Went with the first one. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:29, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * extensive amount of money. &mdash;I don't think amounts can be extensive; "large" or "very large" perhaps?
 * Sure, done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:29, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Without a source of income, he fell ill, and died  &mdash;is this intended as cause and effect (that the lack of money led to his illness)?
 * The source (page 11 in that file) says "Di dalam hidup kemelaratan itulah, Kartolo sakit-sakitan, dan suami Roekiah itu kemudian menyusul istrinya ke alam baqa tanggal 18 Januari 1949 di Yogyakarta" ("In that life of poverty, Kartolo fell ill, and Roekiah's husband joined her in the hereafter on 18 January 1949 in Yogyakarta"). Appears to have been a bit of cause and effect, though I'm not sure if he was ill before leaving RRI. Though we don't have a year of birth recorded for him, he certainly wasn't that old when he died... no later than 40, 45 tops I should think. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:29, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for reviewing! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:29, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, all is good, changed to support above  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  17:15, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, and hope you found this an interesting read. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:07, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Comments: Another very impressive piece of work, and I can readily believe it is the best biography out there. I cannot speak as to comprehensiveness, but there is certainly nothing obviously missing. I have a few prose nit-picks, some of which may be too pedantic, but Crisco tends to set the bar quite high! I also did some minor copy-editing; feel free to revert anything you don't like, or which I've messed up. Otherwise, this looks good and I will be happy to support once my ramblings are answered. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:41, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * ”Around this time she met her future husband, Kartolo”: A minor point, but we call him her “future” husband here, but then never say that they marry. But of course he wasn’t her husband when he met her so I’m torn between accuracy and pedantry here! What about “Around this time she met her future husband, Kartolo; they married in 1934.”
 * I went with "Around this time she met Kartolo, whom she married in 1934.". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”Through these films, Roekiah and Mochtar became the colony's first on-screen couple.”: We’ve only mentioned one film so far, so films (plural) seems a bit strange. Could this be switched somehow with the next sentence?
 * Massaged it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”During her life Roekiah was recognised as a fashion and beauty icon, featuring in advertisements and drawing comparisons to Dorothy Lamour and Janet Gaynor.”: Part of me feels there is too much -ing here. What about switching to “…and featured in…and was compared to…”? And I always wonder about “recognised”. Who recognised her?
 * Have reworded "recognised", though I prefer the flow with the "ing" form. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”and a 1969 article wrote that "in her time…”: I don’t think an article can write anything. Maybe “a 1969 article stated that …“
 * Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk)


 * ”By the mid-1920s they were with Opera Rochani”: Which was what? I think it’s worth being explicit.
 * Have added "troupe". Does not seem to have been a particularly significant troupe. I could add a footnote about "Opera" being common in troupe's names at the time (there's Miss Riboet's Orion and Dardanella, which both used "Opera" in their advertisements, and Dhalia's father Tengku Katam ran the Dhalia Opera), though I'm not keen adding three separate references for such a footnote. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”She was recognised not only for her voice”: Again, recognised by who? And recognised in what sense? Honoured? Admired? Feted? Or just “oh, I know her!”
 * Admired, as I have never heard of any formal awards from the period. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * In the first two paragraphs of Film career, we have “which led to this success.” at the end of paragraph one, and “Despite the film's success” at the start of the next.
 * How's this? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”stopped all work on theatrical productions”: Possibly some confusion for the reader here. Theatrical often means “in the theatre”, and given that we have been talking about her career with a troupe, it could be read that the Filmsyndicaat decided not to do any more stage work.
 * Have rephrased "Despite the success of Terang Boelan, Algemeen Nederlandsch Indisch Filmsyndicaat, the production company, stopped all work on fiction films.". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”much of the cast switched to Tan's Film”: Much is a bit vague; do we mean “most” or “many” here?
 * Most. Fixed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”Fatima was a massive commercial success, earning 200,000 gulden on a 7,000 gulden budget.[17] Following the film's success”: Repetition of “success” again. And two sentences later, we have another “success”.
 * Removed based on below comment. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”Roekiah and Kartolo, meanwhile, continued to act for Tan’s”: Meanwhile to what? We haven’t really talked about anything else here.
 * How do you feel about "Roekiah and Kartolo, for their part, continued to act for the company"? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”Kartolo would often have small, comedic, roles, and Roekiah would sing songs her husband had written”: Is there any particular reason that we need “would” here?
 * Removed. I hope you don't mind the alliteration of "sang songs". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”was ultimately unable to return similar profits as Terang Boelan or Fatima”: Should this be “similar profits to” rather than “as”?
 * D'oh! Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”though Djoemala had never acted before, he had had some experience singing with the group Malay Pemoeda in 1929”: I know that “had had” is perfectly acceptable, but I always think it lacks a little elegance! Could this be rephrased?
 * How's "he had sung with the group Malay Pemoeda in 1929?" — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”good looking”: Should this have a hyphen?
 * That it should. Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”Though Roekiah's films continued to be financial successes,[19] they did not see as large a profit as her earlier works.”: Could the films ‘’see’’ anything at all??
 * "Attain", perhaps? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * In the Djoemala section, I’m not sure we need a paragraph for each film. It makes it a little choppy.
 * This was meant to mirror the structure of the Mochtar section, though now I've tried to rework it. Thoughts? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Check for using “success” too much again around here.
 * I've gotten rid of three or four instances. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”Her funeral was attended by several luminaries, including the then-Minister of Education Ki Hajar Dewantara.”: Given that this is the only time he comes up, do we really need “then-Minister”? Would “Minister” not just be OK?
 * Good point. Removed "then". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I assume we don’t know why she died?
 * Nothing explicit in the sources. Overwork, quite likely. Going from Jakarta to Surabaya (for instance) would not have been a fun trip during the occupation, especially for a pregnant woman or one who had just had a miscarriage. May have also been a lack of nutrition, considering it was an occupation. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”Kartolo refused to collaborate”: Perhaps specify with whom he didn’t collaborate. It may seem obvious, but it might not be to everyone.
 * I've gone with "returning colonial forces", though I'm tempted to use "overlords". Thoughts? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think I'd prefer the wording you have now. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”During the peak of Roekiah's popularity”: I don’t think a peak can have a duration. Maybe “At the peak”.
 * You're right, peak is a certain point in time. Changed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ”Imanjaya credits her as one of the industry's first beauty icons; he also credits her and Rd Mocthar with introducing the concept of bankable stars to domestic cinema”: I don’t think we need “credits” twice in one sentence. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:41, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Changed one to "describes". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Support: Changes looking good, supporting now. And yes, it was very interesting! Sarastro1 (talk) 18:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review, and hope it was an interesting read! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Support Just a few comments.
 * Lede
 * " played the love interest of Rd Mochtar." Technically she didn't, she played the love interest of Rd Mochtar's character.
 * Reworked. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the lede should have a little more about her career during occupation and death.
 * Added a sentence. How's this? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Partnership etc.
 * " after one is almost forced" The woman, I assume?
 * Right... but saying "the woman" would be awkward, and "Roekiah's character" is just terrible. Tried rephrasing. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * " this snapped" "this included" I would change one or the other of the similar phrasings.
 * Tried rephrasing. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * " similar profits to" perhaps "profits similar to"
 * Aha! Much better. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Partnership redux
 * "As such" perhaps "accordingly"?
 * D'accord. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Japanese etc.
 * "film for the studio, the short Japanese propaganda film" Too many "films".--Wehwalt (talk) 12:29, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Rephrased.


 * Thanks for reviewing! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Image check - all OK (PD-1996, Indonesian PD). Sources and authors provided.
 * Note: Interpretation of the current copyright situation between US and Dutch/Indonesian law is based on this discussion. Most of us aren't lawyers, but the current understanding and handling looks OK. GermanJoe (talk) 15:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the image review! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 23:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.