Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Cleaner Fish

Cleaner Fish, Labroides phthirophagus

 * Reason:Great EV, great quality
 * Articles in which this image appears:Cleaner fish
 * FP category for this image:Featured pictures/Animals/Fish
 * Creator:Mbz1


 * Comment I just noticed that the image was nominated a few days ago here. I was really upset by oppose reasons. Some wrote that the lead image for the article is a better illustration. Really? A better illustration of what? The image is nominated as a cleaner fish, and the nominated image is the best image of a cleaner fish. If the image was nominated as a cleaning station, than this image File:Cleaning station.JPG would have been a better illustration, but still not the lead image in cleaner fish. Other opposes complained "chromatic aberration" There's none. It is a natural color of the fish, and details are seen even in thumbnail. Besides all of the above the nominated image is probably the best one to illustrate White-spotted puffer. So here's another nomination after my explanations.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Support as nominator --Mbz1 (talk) 15:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose original as before. Oppose alts 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 (1: blurry, 2: shot from top (composition), 3: underexposed and showing no interaction, 4: upside down (and possibly confusing composition anyway - is it really eating that sea urchin?), 5: inclusion of upside down photograph and wb in top left). Papa Lima Whiskey  (talk) 16:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if the same ignorant oppose reasons as before will be repeated, and they were! A few days ago President Obama complained about republicans. He said: "If I say the sky is blue, they say 'no.' If I said fish live in the sea, they'd say 'no.'" . Here's is pretty much the same situation.
 * Nothing is upside down. The fish is eating a sea urchin, in the only position he could ad the time. Just another ignorant review.--Mbz1 (talk) 14:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

--Mbz1 (talk) 16:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Support great EV, nice and rare photo. Also promoted FP on Commons with 9:0 supported result -- George Chernilevsky  talk 17:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Hint When you get upset by people opposing a FPC, its usually time to step back for a second and try to get some perspective. P. S. Burton  (talk)  17:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the hint. Maybe "upset" was not the right word to use. It is all my English you know. It is not that I am upset because my image got opposed. I upset for the reviewers who oppose the image without clear understanding what they are opposing for.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Might as well just let it go, people are usually unwilling to change their minds, but sometimes they're right. I'd suggest that if one image fails, try another, and keep trying until you really get a good eye for quality so good they can't help but agree, and actually in this case I'm not really happy with this image, which is why I couldn't bring myself to vote for it last time. It's nice, especially for underwater, but this isn't a good angle to see either fish, plus it's very small which further doesn't allow for a really good look at the fish. A good closeup profile would be far more amazing. -- I'ḏ ♥  One  17:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The image you compared to is an aquarium shot. The nominated image was taken in a wild. The size of the fish is less than 4 inches.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope you didn't miss my point. Also, as far as the caption, I don't think they're trying to help other fish so much as that they're just opportunists that found a niche and free eating in the skin of other fish, not to be gross. -- I'ḏ ♥  One  17:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The caption was copied from cleaner fish. Of course the cleaner fishes do not clean other fishes to "help" them. It is simply an example of a symbiotic relationship. I do not believe I missed you point, but I am not sure you did not miss mine. One cannot compare the images of two absolutely different fishes, with an absolutely different behavior taken in absolutely different environment, and under absolutely different conditions. Cleaner fishes are really fast, and I could not have taken a real close up of it without cutting off the other fish.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * All I'm saying is the caption's a bit naive-sounding, not that that's what we're voting on. So what? You should've just cut the other fish off if it would've let you get a close-up photo of the cleaner fish, that's the subject we're voting on, right? Or if ever you can try to get a camera with a better view. -- I'ḏ ♥  One  14:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Support GerardM (talk) 18:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC) NB There is no before, I think this is the probably the best of the bunch
 * Comment I added a composite to show the behavior of a small fish. Each individual frame is available by request. --Mbz1 (talk) 20:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Support edit 5 I like that montage and it sort of lets you get away with the bad angle of the fish. I also support the image in the lower right of Edit 5 if it is added. -- I'ḏ ♥  One  22:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Everyone, please indicate exactly which images you support or oppose. With 8329 versions, this will quickly turn into a mess if we aren't careful. Makeemlighter (talk) 00:01, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I was under the impression that in the case of collages, we prefer promoting individual images per Dschwen's argument on Alvesgaspar's poppy nomination. Papa Lima Whiskey  (talk) 06:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment my support vote above is support for all variants. It is really nice photos IMO. Tiny cleaner fish at job and big client. Perfect photos taken in wild. -- George Chernilevsky talk 07:28, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose all. As before, I don't consider this image the best for illustrating the article in which it is used, and none of the alts really hit the spot either. I'm mainly opposing because I think it's a little sub-standard EV-wise. The fact it doesn't even lead the article is a bit of a giveaway- we have other images which are more effective in illustrating the article. Compositionally, they're all a little awkward- it's hardly eye-popping photography. I don't like the collage at all- they're six similar shots, not six stages of something, or six different views or something. Not good as a set- you could add more or take more away and the set would be no more or no less "complete". J Milburn (talk) 10:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No, the set shows how the cleaner moves together with the fish, and cleans different part of its body. I could have added more images to the set, and then EV will be better. I could have taken some out, and EV would have been lost. No other images in the article illustrates a cleaner fish better, none. When I added the image to the article I got this message at my talk page. You are entitled to your opinion, but IMO it only shows the ignorance over and over again.--Mbz1 (talk) 14:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * What is ignorant about what I've said? If you're gonna use that kind of language, back it up. You have so far attacked anyone who disagreed with you in this nomination- have you considered that it may not be "everyone else" who's wrong here? J Milburn (talk) 16:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

'''More input needed on each image. Everyone, feel free to comment, even if you didn't vote.''' Makeemlighter (talk) 05:32, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong support like the last time. Great underwater image taken in a wild. Broccoli (talk) 19:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: I think it is disappointing that this is heading towards a promote when its possible the nominator has scared away opposition by shouting at it. Does anyone else have any more thoughts on this nomination? J Milburn (talk) 11:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * (And, if it makes any difference to the final outcome, I am most strongly opposed to alts 4 and 5 for reasons given by myself and PLW above.) J Milburn (talk) 11:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I strongly oppose Alt5 for the reason I explained (this is not a set, it's a batch of similar images) and strongly oppose Alt4 as, so far as I can see, it is upside down, despite Mbz's angry assertions to the contrary. Why is the sand on the top? I oppose them all generally because I don't feel this is the best possible illustration for the article subject, as I explained in the first nom. It doesn't so much illustrate the behaviour as show two fish that happen to be next to each other. I'm not saying it's an easy behaviour to show, I'm just saying that, to my eyes, this just doesn't show it. J Milburn (talk) 21:43, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Though I did not vote, here are my thoughts. In terms of showing the behaviour and the fish the best images here are likely the original and alt 1. They have the most pleasant composition and are closest to clearly showing the wrasse cleaning the puffer. Alt 1 probably shows this behaviour more clearly. All of the other single image alts are not nearly as well composed or as clear. The composite image doesn't add much value and is probably a case whether the whole is less than the sum of it's parts. The original and alt 1 are the only two viable images for me. Cowtowner (talk) 16:02, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, at the risk of being called ignorant and possibly other names, too, I can say that had I voted, I would have opposed. Mainly for reasons explained by PLW and J Milburn. --Priest zadok (talk) 20:09, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, too bad you did not vote. I had a very, very good laugh over some reviews, but most of all over PLW claim that alternative "4: upside down ". A few more reviews like that would have made me feel even better about the nomination than I already do. I do mean it.--Mbz1 (talk) 00:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * At danger of repeating myself, and in all seriousness, I wonder how many people would have come out to oppose had there not been such aggression here. I will leave this to Makeemlighter, but I question the consensus here. J Milburn (talk) 21:05, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I may be wrong here, but I don't see a consensus to promote; there's not enough supports floating around...is this discussion necessary or should this just be closed as a non-promotion?Cowtowner (talk) 22:18, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was silly of me to nominate the images or even upload them for that matter. I withdraw my nomination because the images are way too good for that forum. BTW I removed the image from the article also. J Milburn may safely rest his D= DX campaign now --Mbz1 (talk) 22:25, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Grow up. I didn't support the first time, you coming back and just shouting isn't going to make me support a second time. There's absolutely no reason to behave like this; your conduct in this discussion has been awful. J Milburn (talk) 23:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? My conduct has been awful? Well, you might be right. I do need to grow up, and stop trying to prove to the reviewers, who have not a slightest idea what they are talking about, that the image has encyclopedic value, and does add value to the article. BTW as I said I did remove the image from the article. Guess what, it was added back in a few minutes with the edit summary "adding back good, encyclopedic image", and this edit summary explains why your no, not just a single oppose vote, but the whole disgusting campaign against the nomination only showed an absolute ignorance about the subject that you have never seen, and probably will never see yourself in a real life. --Mbz1 (talk) 23:52, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no doubt that the image adds something to the article, but I stand by what I have said; the image does not illustrate the subject as well as I would like a featured picture to. You've done little to provide any counter arguments, all you've done (and all you've continued to do) is be abusive. There has been no "campaign", and the fact you've continued in your efforts to make this personal doesn't just cross the line, it's pathetic. (For what it's worth, no, I don't dive, I'm not a very strong swimmer. I've never seen this in the wild. So what? I doubt many reviewers have actually seen most of the things on which they comment.) J Milburn (talk) 19:20, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

--Makeemlighter (talk) 10:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No consensus. Makeemlighter (talk) 10:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)