Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Hornet launches a B-25

Hornet launches a B-25
I like this picture, it shows the carrier USS Hornet launching B-25 Mitchell Bomber as part the Doolittle Raid.
 * Nominate and support. - TomStar81 22:55, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Intriguing photo, which documents a remarkable piece of history. bcasterline t 00:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Symbol oppose vote.png|15px]] Oppose I appreciate that this is a historic image, but you've got to draw the line somewhere on quality/historic value. I just don't think the quality is up to scratch. --Fir0002 style="color:#C6CACC; background:#F8FCFF">www 04:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * In all fairness to that comment it is hard to find big quality photos from the WWII era that have more going for them than just "historical value". I picked this one out on account of the fact that it captured the launch of a twin propeller bomber from the back as it took off without the aid of a catapult. TomStar81 04:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The quality of this photo is at least as good as Image:Lowering the flag on Zuikaku.jpg, which is currently a featured picture. I don't think it gets much better. bcasterline t 06:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the best WWII action pic we have is Image:NormandyLST.jpeg ~ Veledan • Talk 07:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree. Also Image:Reichstag flag.jpg is pretty good. So all up I think FP is pretty well represented of WWII era. I'm a little surprised however that there isn't an FP of Iwo Jima --Fir0002 style="color:#C6CACC; background:#F8FCFF">www 07:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Iwo Jima will be featured the instant its fair use tag morphs into a PD tag, of that I think we are all certain; its just a matter of who puts it up here first ;-) TomStar81 08:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Image:Lowering the flag on Zuikaku.jpg should be allowed to be of a lower quality, since the photo depicts something more historically important (and is also striking in its content), just as the first photograph ever, which is also an FP, can be an unrecognizable mess and still become Featured. The content is more important historically. This image is of a random B-25 launching from a random carrier. Now, if it was a photo of the first plane to be launched from carrier, or a photo of the Enola Gay taking off, for example, maybe you'd have a case. --  BRIAN  0918 16:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If this image is of a random B-25 launching from a random carrier, why isn't Image:Lowering the flag on Zuikaku.jpg a picture of a random carrier being sunk in a random battle? I think the Doolittle raid is historically significant, just as Leyte Gulf is signifcant, and a plane fromn the Doolittle raid is significant, just as a as a carrier from the attack on Pearl Harbor is significant. Especially given the technical achievements involved in flying a B-25 off a carrier. But I guess historical significance is a matter of personal opinion. bcasterline t 16:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the point was the rarity of the historical moment caught on camera &mdash; there must be more photos of planes taking off carriers than there are photos of doomed soldiers scrambling up the side of a capsizing ship in order to salute their flag one last time before they drown (which half of them did). More photos means we can hold out for better quality. ~ Veledan • Talk 20:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but I think this photo deserves more credit. As far as I know, B-25s were never launched from a carrier before the Doolittle Raid or since. There were only 16 bombers involved in the raid; no one on board the carrier knew what the bombers were doing; and certainly no one was intentionally put on board to document the occasion. So I think it's very likely that this is the only photo in existence of not only the Doolittle Raid, but, since the raid itself was so unique, anything like this. -- bcasterline • talk 14:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a difference that you're not grasping. This image is supposed to be historic for the rarity of its content, but you don't even know anything about the B-25 in the image (you just call it "a B-25"), why it was launched, what its mission was, etc. For anyone who looks at the photo, all they see is a plane taking off from a carrier (if it was "the Enola Gay" launching to drop the atomic bomb, you would have a case). In contrast, the rarity of the sinking ship, with its crew saluting before they drown, is self-evident, as Valedan clearly explained above. --22:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, I disagree. You don't know anything about Image:Lowering the flag on Zuikaku.jpg until you read the caption, either: there's nothing self-evident about that. I agree that it's extremely rare -- and obviously so -- but I don't see why this image is significantly different. I think a B-25 flying off a carrier is dramatic; and it only happened on one occasion. But, again, perhaps significance is largely a matter of personal opinion. -- bcasterline • talk 23:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If I'm reading this source correctly, 16 B-25's took off from that carrier (or other carriers as well?) for that mission, and that page includes a different photo of a B-25 takeoff. Whatever the truth, it's all subjective at this point. --  BRIAN  0918 02:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I do see bcasterline's point here, and I guess that if I knew as much about WWII or fighter aircraft as he did, I'd agree about the significance of this pic. I expect that's what it ultimately boils down to in the end: FPs will be that subset of good pictures which happen to have appeal even for those people with little or no appreciation of the subject matter. That's a good use of FPs IMO, because they can engender an interest where there was none before, but I appreciate it is frustrating for people who do know something about the subject and can see pictures in a different light ~ Veledan • Talk 15:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The historical imporatnace of the picture (for those interested in it): This was the first launch of the first bombing raid against the Japanese home island by the United States. This was the only time that United States Army Air Force Pilots (Now the United States Air Force) staged off of a US Navy carrier. This was also the first time that a bomber had ever been used aboard an aircraft carrier (Note that many fighters carried bombs, but a bomber and a fighter are to seperate types of aircraft). The raid could also be pointed to as the first step toward the American victory at the battle of Midway, as the psychological effect of the raids conducted by these 16 B-25s caused the japanese to transfer certain assets back to the home islands rather than dispatch them to attack US interests. B-25 bombers such as the ones pictured here were also notable in that they could not land on the carriers they were launched from due to the distance required for them to stop, so a carrier launching bombers would not retrieve them. If memory serves Hornet had to dispense with her fighter contigent to make room for the bombers, which ment that Enerprise was solely responsible for the entire task force’s air cover. TomStar81 03:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose for now, not so much for the quality as that I don't think the subject is especially well depicted. For comparison, FPs Image:Pennsylvania Lingayen.jpg, Image:Uss-akron-manhattan.jpg, and of course the Image:NormandyLST.jpeg I cited above are from the same period or before, and to me they speak for themselves in a way this doesn't ~ Veledan • Talk 07:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - we should remind ourselves that we're not promoting images which adequately depict fascinating subjects, but rather, images which stunningly depict ordinary subjects. And this image is, well, fairly dull, and of particularly low quality. I wonder whether, if cropped, anyone could even identify the type of aircraft from this photo. Stevage 16:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Cameras were not that bad 64 years ago. Bad quality might be excused if your ship is about to sink or if you are in the middle of an attack. Mikeo 16:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)~
 * Support. Quality and historical importance are on par with (if not greater than) the Zuikaku FP. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 17:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as per Stevage and Mikeo. -- P199 22:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as per above. To me this is just some old photo of a plane taking off from a ship. There's no way to identify either of them. It's too small and quality is terrible (look at that banding across the top, and what's with that UFO above the plane?). Fine to use the pic, but it's no FP, it's not that historic. --jjron 10:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * oppose. You must draw the line somewhere between historical significance and quality. As for previous comments you say this was the first bomber launched, should that not be included in the caption? (though I wouls still oppose) As for compared to Zuikaku, I see men standing on the side of a ship, I will look at it and read the caption as how often do you see a picture of that, but the other just appears to be a picture of a bomber taking off and you see lots of pictures of that.say1988 03:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Mikeo. enochlau (talk) 07:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

~ Veledan • Talk 14:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)