Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Justine Ezarik/1

Justine Ezarik

 * • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
 * Result: Relisted This article was originally delisted primarily due to 6a concerns with the relevance of the images. The individual reassessment was disputed by the editor so it progressed to a community reassessment. The community reassessment identified some fixable issues that were eventually fixed. There has been no meaningful discussion in several weeks, and at least 3 uninvolved parties have voted for a relist. There seems to be no compelling argument remaining to keep this article from being relisted. Aaron north  (T/C) 05:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I am challenging the propriety of the Talk:Justine Ezarik/GA2 delisting decision that was supposedly based on WP:WIAGA 2c and 6b. The bulk of the disagreement was based on a disagreement on removal of images from the article. I requested an outside party give a third opinion on the issue. The following are the image issues
 * File:20081114 Justine Ezarik and iPhone.jpg was stated that it "doesn't add anything"
 * 1) three images (1, 2, and 3) in the 'New Media Expo 2008' box were deemed as not relevant because the text does not discuss them
 * 2) two internet event images labeled as 'myspace party' and 'podcamp' were stated to add nothing because the text does not discuss their relevance.
 * File:Intel Insider Kickoff - Justine Ezarik.jpg was similarly described as adding nothing because the text does not discuss them.

The basic argument against these images was that "If the images are not depicting anything very noteworthy in the subjects career/life, which is what it looks like, then they should probably be removed."
 * My argument is that "Ezarik is an internet personality and images of her doing internet related professional appearances is relevant".--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

There is also a disagreement about WP:PRIMARY in terms of two elements of the article that only have primary sources. The reviewer feels that primary sources necessarily mean WP:OR.

These are the only two items that led to the delisting. I do not believe either is valid.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I won't claim to be an expert on images and GARs, but looking at the article, I'd argue that:
 * ...given that Ezarik is an internet personality, and the pictures relate to her doing internet activities, the argument that these are the equivalent to a sports personality playing in a particular game or match would seem to have some validity. The MOS notes that images ..."must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly related to the article's topic"; IMHO, I'd say that these probably are.
 * ...that said, there are a lot of pictures in the one section "Viral video career and Internet celebrity status" (six I think), and in terms of presentation, they might usefully be edited down to two or three - it does look quite busy at the moment.
 * Hchc2009 (talk) 20:07, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am trying to interpret what you are saying. I am reading that you agree that delisting for irrelevant images was probably an incorrect interpretation of WP:WIAGA although you might prefer fewer images.  Let me know if I am understanding you correctly.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:44, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You've interpreted me correctly! Hchc2009 (talk) 21:00, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you care to express an opinion that will count you would state in bold something like. "Overturn with encouragement to reconsider images (possibly specifying a number or two from the four above)" and state that you do not feel the images caused the article to controvert WP:WIAGA.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:15, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

How are they related to the internet? As a reader, I don't know what a 'New Media Expo 2008', 'myspace party', 'podcamp az' or 'Intel insider event' is. I don't know what they are because they are not mentioned in the text.--Tempest429 (talk) 21:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Her images are like the images in Manny Harris. They are all basically from games not mentioned in the text, but since he is a basketball player, we accept those images as representative of him although their significance is not explained in the text.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:00, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not at all, the images in that article are explained in the text. Basketball player x, played in league y, here is image z showing an example of one of those games in league y. The images in this article are just her standing in front of the camera. They add absolutely nothing by themselves. I feel like I am repeating what was already said at Talk:Justine_Ezarik. If you didn't understand why it was wrong then, I don't think the chances of you understanding it now are any better. --Tempest429 (talk) 23:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

'''Recommend Overturn with encouragement to reconsider the number of images (see below) and to improve captioning (see below). The images themselves appear relevant to the topic, as per GAR.'''

In detail: I suspect that we need to distinguish clearly the questions of the relevance of the image to the topic, and the suitability of the captions. Referring back to the GAR standard: "every included image must be relevant to the topic, and must have a suitable caption. Purely decorative images, such as an image of a butterfly in a psychology article about emotions, should be removed." also, "A good caption explains why a picture belongs in an article."


 * a) As noted above, to me the images themselves appear relevant to the topic of the article, an internet personality.


 * b) The number of images in "Viral video career and Internet celebrity status" seems high. Given the length of the section, my advice would be to go for three; it were me, I'd choose 20081102 Podcamp AZ.jpg; [[FIle:20080815 New Media Expo at twitter.jpg|50px]]; Intel Insider Kickoff - Justine Ezarik.jpg.


 * c) Captions. The quality of the captions isn't quite GAR - too brief - but very easily sorted. I don't know anything much about Ezarik other than from this article, so play with the wording, but you could easily have, say:


 * 20081102 Podcamp AZ.jpg: "Justine in her eJustine persona, speaking at a Podcamp technology conference."


 * 20080815 New Media Expo at twitter.jpg: "Justine taking part in an online promotional spot for the web podcaster TWiT.tv."


 * Intel Insider Kickoff - Justine Ezarik.jpg: "Justine starting the debate at an Intel technology conference."

That way, all would link back to a point in the text (her eJustine persona, and her earning money through online promotional events and technology conferences respectively). Hchc2009 (talk) 09:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

How is a portrait of the subject with her hands open, or holding a glass related to internet activities?--Tempest429 (talk) 17:39, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to the Intel insider event?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am referring to the portrait ones which have nothing happening in them.--Tempest429 (talk) 22:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I'm just looking at the two issues mentioned above and making a good-faith assumption that everything else satisfies the GA criteria. I cant vote for it yet as-is, but I think this is fixable. Aaron north  (T/C) 05:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

1. Images - of the three images mentioned by Hchc2009, I am fine with the first 2, but not the 3rd. Given her "lifecasting" and youtube channels, an appearance speaking to an audience at podcamp and an appearance with a panel at the New Media Expo are both relevant. The other 4 images should be removed. We don't need more than one new media expo image, I don't understand why a face shot with a glass supposedly taken at a myspace party is relevant (what does she have to do with myspace re: the text?), and I have no clue why I am looking at her speaking at an intel insider event. What is she doing with intel? Looks decorative. Aaron north  (T/C) 05:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

2. OR - I do agree that a primary source can be used when a good secondary source can not be found, but it can only be used for data (where were you born, how old are you, what is your job, etc). Saying that there are two characters and describing what they look like can be fine if done carefully. Describing eJustine's behavior and speculating on her motivation requires an analysis of a primary source, and thus OR. I assume you can't find a reliable secondary source, so I believe this flaw can be easily cured by removing the bolded text in: (In a few of her YouTube videos, in addition to her common persona as iJustine, she played the role of an additional character eJustine, who acts as a sort of antagonist against protagonist iJustine.) The sentence following that is a bit iffy (subjective descriptions of "normal", "wild", "strange-looking"), but that is pretty minor compared to the OR in the preceding sentence. (incidentally now that I notice, is it permitted to bold a subject's alternative name or identifier outside the lead?) Also, now that I step back from this one little tree and look at the entire forest, is this silly side-story with ejustine even relevant? Due to source questions its inclusion is problematic anyway, I might recommend just removing that whole thing and be done with it. Aaron north  (T/C) 05:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ This concern has been fixed. Aaron north  (T/C) 21:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Since we are getting feedback on the photos as I had hoped in the original debate, I would like to understand why neither image with fellow internet personality Gary Vaynerchuk is considered relevant. I am removing the one with several unnamed subjects, but the The one with fellow internet personalities Vaynerchuk and Leo Laporte seems to represent something relevant. In fact, I am tweaking the image header to say the following: "New Media Expo 2008 images with internet personalities". Can I get some feedback.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, that does make sense. I am fine with the two New Media Expo images with the title and captions as they are now in the imagebox. Aaron north  (T/C) 16:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I am fine with removing all of the eJusting stuff and have done so.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I am travelling and don't have time to fully respond to the Myspace and Intel images, but she is widely associated with many internet and technology brands. In some of her more notable early career highly-viewed youtube videos she did painted the logos of several dozen brands on easter eggs one year. I am travelling today and do not have time to discuss further. Will respond later tonight.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if an argument could somehow be made that the other 2 images are relevant to the article (and that myspace party photo doesn't even show her doing anything), there are 9 images in a 2,300 word article. I'd think that was more than enough, and if a couple images should go, those 2 probably have the weakest connection to the subject. Aaron north  (T/C) 16:35, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

If I were to cut two images they would be the two that are currently in a Template:Multiple image template as the Myspace and Podcamp images. The intel images is the best image at showing what the everyday Justine looks like in the whole article. The first that I would chop would be the podcamp image because she does not often wear glasses. As I said earlier, she use to do videos linking her to many tech/internet brands and example is the Egg 2.0 video (I can not find the original egg video). I am going to remove the podcamp image because she just does not usually look like that, so the image is not really representing her.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:01, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what purpose the myspace picture serves. Regarding the intel picture, I'd think that several of the earlier pictures are an example of "everyday Justine", and the intel connection seems weak when considering the text of the article in relation to that picture. Anyway, I would also be interested in seeing what others think of the images. Aaron north  (T/C) 20:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If there were one remaining image I would not have trouble letting go, it would be the myspace one because it appears to be a social image. The intel image is seemingly a professional tech event, which I think makes it worth keeping.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to have more than one 'everyday' image of the subject. If the new media expo images are relevant, where is the accompanying text explaning what a new media expo is?--Tempest429 (talk) 21:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, as far as the Blogworld and New Media Expo 2010 goes, the random "man on the street" might not know a lot about it, but within the realm of of bloggers, podcasters, and internet celebrities, there is not a bigger annual event. It is the biggest gathering of the medium. If Justine is expected to appear anywhere, it would be there. Perhaps it could be worth a sentence or two mentioning her appearance since the event isn't as well-known as the oscars, but I would cut a lot of other pictures (intel, myspace, etc) before I cut a picture of Justine as an internet celebrity standing next to Leo LaPorte. Aaron north  (T/C) 22:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I just added some content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:27, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Until the above issues are fixed, here are some more:
 * 1) The lead says she is a 'voice actress, spokesperson and actress as well as a former freelance graphic/web designer', whilst the lead is suppose to only list her occupations she is known for. Seeing as she has voiceacted in a one-off video, and had two guest appearances on tv, she certainly can't be known for that. Spokesman for who, or what? What notable 'freelance graphic/web designer' work has she done? Should all be deleted unless it can be justified.
 * Agreed. Aaron north  (T/C) 23:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, Annoying Orange is far more than a one-off.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I changed the lead as well as cited the occupations. I believe that her role of spokesperson (for companies such as Mozy) is a result of her status as an Internet personality. Annoying Orange is a comedy web series, so her voice acting on that show is part of her being a comedian. Ezarik was only noted for being a designer because that was her major in college and her occupation during her lifecasting run on Justin.tv. Her work as a designer has not been noted by the media, so I removed it entirely. I may mention it in the lifecasting section. -- w L &lt;speak&middot;check&gt; 08:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * At what point do we add actress to the LEAD given sources such as TV.com and IMDb.com?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't think a total of two guest appearances would merit a first-sentence lead "she is an actress", but it certainly should be mentioned in one of the first sentences of the lead that she has appeared in a minor role on two television shows. Aaron north  (T/C) 16:38, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Since she has only played two dead bodies so far, I think the mention at the end of the second paragraph of the LEAD is probably O.K. for now.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:02, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Similar to first issue, she is in the categories 'American people of Slovak descent' and 'American graphic designers'. Need a RS for her Slovakian background, and as I said above, what notable graphic designer work has she done?
 * Are the categories part of a GA review? I don't remember seeing that. Either way, removing a dubious category should be easy if necessary. Aaron north  (T/C) 23:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Categories removed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Both above makes it fail criteria 1(b) and possibily 1(c). But I'd suggest you fix the images problem first. If you don't want to fix them, then this discussion can be closed and the article can remain as B class.--Tempest429 (talk) 18:19, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Somehow this discussion fell off of my watchlist. I did not see the discussion for the last week and am just responding now.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Weak Do not list I could change my mind on this, but this GAR has been up for a while and the criteria 6 image concerns I have are not yet satisfied. I also believe the lead has a small problem as Tempest429 noted above. Aaron north  (T/C) 23:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Please consider my recent response. This fell of my watch list for a week and it may have seemed I was ignoring feedback.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The article is better now than when we started. I would still be interested in seeing more feedback from others on the use of images, but lacking that I still have 6b concerns on the myspace picture. Aaron north  (T/C) 16:38, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not too averse to removing the picture of her at the myspace party, but also request feedback on just cropping out the drink to make it look more encyclopedic.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:02, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The drink isn't really the problem to me, I just don't see the relevance of the picture in any form. The event isn't noteworthy, and we have plenty of other pictures to show what she looks like. Aaron north  (T/C) 17:35, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Image removed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:28, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Relist All of my concerns are satisfied. Aaron north  (T/C) 21:14, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Only remaining issue is Image:Intel_Insider_Kickoff_-_Justine_Ezarik.jpg still has nothing to do with the content it is placed with no. No mention of what an 'intel insider event' is.--Tempest429 (talk) 18:07, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have added an article noting that Intel is a client of hers.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:36, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't explain what the Intel inside event is. Might be able to use if you could get a hold of the full article.--Tempest429 (talk) 22:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What about changing the caption from "Ezarik involved in discussions at the Intel insider event (2008-06-24)" to "Ezarik, who counts Intel as a client, involved in discussions at the Intel insider event (2008-06-24)" --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:56, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have expanded the caption and text to reflect the link ref that you identified.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:20, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Relist The last picture has a purpose in the article, as do all the others. Diderot's  dreams  (talk) 06:03, 17 November 2010 (UTC)