Wikipedia:Peer review/Bobby Robson/archive2

Bobby Robson
Extensive work has gone on here since achieving good article status, including getting a Flickr editor to provide a correctly licenced image for the infobox. Please review with WP:FAC in mind. It's been copyedited by User:Dweller to remove my heavy Ipswich bias, so I hope it meets with the approval of the community. Thanks. The Rambling Man 12:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Very good indeed. As an FAC run is imminent these comments are extra-pedantic.
 * Lead
 * It'd be worth mentioning his playing position somewhere.
 * ✅Included his position in the lead. The Rambling Man 21:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The word "silverware" may confuse some of our Am. Eng. speaking readers.
 * ✅Gone for earning trophies instead of gaining silverware in a bid to help our AmEngs... The Rambling Man 21:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Better to put the date he was diagnosed with cancer for the fifth time than describe it as "recent".
 * ✅ Dated most recent cancer and reworded slightly to improve (I think) flow. The Rambling Man 21:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Playing career
 * electrician apprentice - apprentice electrician surely?
 * ✅Actually, I believe it was electrician's apprentice, so changed for that. Either way, the original text wasn't right! The Rambling Man 21:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Despite being offered a contract by Middlesbrough - implies Middlesbrough was a preferential option. "nearby Middlesbrough" perhaps?
 * ✅I've made it clear that it was an offer from nearby Middlesbrough F.C. to hopefully avoid confusion... The Rambling Man 22:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * newly-promoted Fulham - might be better to introduce the First Division before mentioning promotion, the question "promoted to where?" arises otherwise.
 * ✅Introduced first division so there's some context The Rambling Man 22:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * indeed he was relegated with Fulham from the top-flight - something that doesn't flow right here, but I can't put my finger on it. "He and Fulham were relegated from the top-flight"?
 * ✅Rephrased, not sure but perhaps you'd be kind enough to check what I've written... The Rambling Man 22:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Despite press reports of interest from Arsenal,[23] and the offer of a player-manager role by Southend,[24] Robson left Fulham in 1967 and accepted a three-year deal with Canada's Vancouver Royals to be player-manager in their inaugural 1967–68 season in the North American Soccer League, believing it "...was a chance too good to miss". Run-on sentence.
 * ✅Split, hope it works. The Rambling Man 22:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fulham came back for Robson Came back from where? A little informal.
 * ✅Yeah, simple as they offered him a contract. The Rambling Man 22:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * He was selected for the 1962 World Cup finals... Another run-on sentence. The article contains a few, I won't list the others.
 * ✅That one's split, when I come back I'll recheck for others, but for me it's difficult as I wrote a great deal of it myself. A bit like not being able to see the wood for the trees.  If you spot any more, even during FAC, please let me know. The Rambling Man 22:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Managerial career
 * dug-out of his former club Fulham - I know what this is trying to say, but Fulham were his current club at the time!
 * ✅Colloquialism removed, just his former club... The Rambling Man 22:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Were Fulham already struggling at the bottom when Robson took over? If so, mention it. Without context, "could not save the club from relegation" comes across as POV.
 * You're right, but I need my book....! The Rambling Man 22:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ Fulham had only 1/3 of their possible points. Can't find a league table to say where they were but hopefully what I've written now covers that. The Rambling Man 15:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * He left the London club in November,[39] with the club sitting eighth in the Second Division, having discovered that he had been sacked, not from the club itself, but from a billboard. Would be better as two sentences; that's a lot of commas.
 * ✅Split. The Rambling Man 22:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * dismissed by Freddy Shepherd, after a perceived poor start to the Premier League season and alleged discontent in the dressing room. The ref simply states "poor start", not "perceived poor start".
 * ✅Well spotted. Perceived removed. The Rambling Man 22:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This was one of many errors I introduced... on this occasion, mistakenly trying to deal with what I "perceived" as possible POV! --Dweller 22:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * England's post-1992 top division is described variously as the Premiership and Premier League. Choose one and stick to it.
 * ✅Officially it's Premier League, so I'll stick to that! The Rambling Man 22:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Other comments
 * The "Outside football" section has a disjointed trivia-like feel in places.
 * Yeah, I think it's pretty crap - I'd happily take advice on how best to deal with it...The Rambling Man 22:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ I hope I've de-crapped it a bit. I think most of it was trivia and irrelevant.  I'll happily reinsert if required for FAC.  The Rambling Man 15:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The phrase "Despite this" or similar is used many times, which gets a little repetitive.
 * Wow, eleven times. Even I find that exhausting...! The Rambling Man 22:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅Down to four, with some rephrasing to accommodate the removal. The Rambling Man 22:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The "culture shock" at PSV that the Robson quote in the article mentions could be expanded by a couple of lines as it appears to have been a big factor in his PSV career - there's a chapter about his first spell at PSV in Dutch journalist Simon Kuper's Football Against the Enemy" entitled "Dutch and English - Why Bobby Robson failed in Holland". For the second PSV spell - the article reads like third was a big achievement, but at PSV, third is failure.
 * Yeah, agreed, for PSV for come third probably was a disaster for them, but for a manager to spend a single year with a club and still gain Champions League was, in my opinion (!), not bad work. However, I don't have Kuper's book, do you?  Is there anything you could suggest and cite that I can add? The Rambling Man 22:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can add. What does your book say about his departure in 1992? Kuper states that he learned about the decision not to renew his contract from the Dutch press. For the second spell, one simply needs to look at PSV's all time record. The last time they finished outside the top three was 1981, and since then they have finished outside the top two only four times. Oldelpaso 09:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Hope this helps. Oldelpaso 18:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As yet, I can't see anything suitable to add. Perhaps you can suggest something reasonable from Kuper.  For a single year in the job and Robson (for some reason) stating that finishing third was a "miracle", I've got nothing substantial to go on.  His auto-bio claims a single year contract, no sign of sacking... The Rambling Man 16:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)