Wikipedia:Peer review/Feyenoord Rotterdam/archive1

Feyenoord Rotterdam
This peer review resulted from SportsAddicted to WikiProject Football to help get Feyenoord Rotterdam up to FA status. A fantastic job has been done in getting it comphrensive, the issue that needs to be addressed now is what needs to be kept/put in sub-articles/deleted. So, what I suggest we do is divide the peer review up into seperate sections corresponding to the sections of the article, and then people can state their opinion on each. OK, I'll start off with a few observations...

Location
 * I would merge the first paragraph into a history section, then get rid of the second paragraph. There's mentions of Sparta and Excelsior further down.

History
 * Well, at a glance, I'd the whole of this can be moved into History of Feyenoord Rotterdam and then summarised in the main article. What pictures/text is to be kept I'll leave for now. HornetMike

Stadium
 * Firstly, the concert stuff can be moved into the stadium article, doesn't need to be here. "One of the major European stadiums" is a bit of a sweeping statement and needs clarifying. Also I'm not really sure about the "every fan looks at the stadium" stuff. It's all a bit POV. Regarding the songs, the hymn sounds interesting and could be put in the fans section. The rest sounds like typical stadium chants and could probably go.

Other accommodations
 * I'm not sure whether any of this is needed, to be honest. Maybe put some of it into the stadium article?

Historical clashes
 * This can go, I reckon. Any mention of big games can be put in a history article.

Famous Feyenoord Players
 * There's no criteria for this. I'd suggest linking to List of Feyenoord Rotterdam players and format along the same criteria as something like List of Arsenal F.C. players.

Feyenoord managers
 * Again, I'd suggest creating List of Feyenoord Rotterdam managers and then list notable managers like in Sheffield Wednesday F.C..

Trivia
 * The two things here can probably be put in the lead, with citations.

Other comments
 * The page probably needs a clubs/crests section. Also, whilst the prose is generally good, it needs a bit of tweaking. HornetMike 11:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I will in due course make more comments on this PR but the most important thing is this - there are far too many non-free images included under justification of Fair Use, when they would probably fail it. I would remove all non-free images from this article (team logo in the infobox excepted) straight away, and only include any (one or two at most) if consensus decides that they are iconic enough that not including them would severely reduce the quality of the article. Qwghlm 12:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

So, assume good faith please:
 * The page is good (def. in GA range), but HUUUGE!!! (136kb). Please put the history into a new article, and also consider moving more info related articles like Klassieker or Feijenoord Stadium (only soccer-relevant info in Feyenoord, rock concert and speedway into the stadium).
 * The accomodations do not need subsections, IMHO, just make them bold and merge them into plain text.
 * Image status of several images seems unclear. A bullet-proof fair use summary would help, maybe?
 * For an article this long, the lead is dar too short, see WP:LEAD
 * The sections "Motto" and "Location" are stubby, please expand or (better IMHO) merge them into the lead.
 * I dont really know if you need info on "first day" or "first training". It is well sourced, but IMHO many clubs are eagerly anticipated like that
 * The list of notable matches seems a bit POV and WP:NOR; I understand matches where Feyenoord wins something, but too many flat out unimportant matches are listed (e.g. Feyenoord-Rosenborg, Stuttgart-Feyenoord or all in 2002 UEFA Cup prior to the final)
 * DO NOT EVEN DARE TO INTRODUCE A TRIVIA SECTION!!! Trivia is bad and virtually guarantees your article will never be promoted. (believe me, I have written 2 GAs)

Sorry to nitpick so much, but I really like this article and would like to see it promoted to GA and FA. All in all, a huge improvement from the previously pretty crappy Feyenoord page. —Onomatopoeia 17:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * SportsAddicted comment':

First of all I'd like to thank you all for the nice comments about the improvings and for the effort and time you all are investing in this article to improve it even more. I will now comment on what is said in this review to clarify things or to give my opinion so we can work to a consensus.
 * Merging location and motto into the history or lead section sounds like a good idea to me. I personally would say the lead would be the best place to have this information in, specially when the lead needs to be expanded like Onomatopoeia is saying.
 * Also creating a History of Feyenoord Rotterdam article should be done as the article is currently too large and needs to be trimmed. However, currently several people are copy-editing this section and I think we should let them do their work for now and create the main article as soon as we all agree that the section is complete and copy-edited well enough.
 * Stadium: I agree the concert stuff can go. The statement on the stadium being one of the major stadiums in Europe is made because it's rated in the highest class of UEFA Stadiums (5 stars) and has hosted a record number of European Cup finals. I guess that has to be mentioned then :) The statement of every fan driving over the bridge watching to the stadium is made at vasf.nl which is the official website for the shareholders of the stadium. I can see it still might look POV, but I know many people who indeed do this, actually I do it myself as well. The songs mentioned are not typical football stadium chants, but complete songs which indeed are sung in the stadium, but which all also became hits in the charts and I think it's proper to name these songs in this section of the article.
 * Other accomodations: The Topsportcentrum, Brasserie and fanshops can indeed be put in the stadium article itself, but they are part of the club and should not be deleted in my opinion. The clothing line part can probably be merged with the fanshop part as the clothes can be bought there. Varkenoord should stay in my opinion, it's where the youth and amateur teams of the club play their games. It's a well known place and an important part of the team.
 * Historical clashes: I agree some of these can be considered not that important and that naming them important is in a way POV. What I can do is merge these (or a part of these) into the history sections and if they are already mentioned there they can probably be expanded a bit.
 * List of Feyenoord players/managers/chairmen: That's a must I think. The current list is indeed too long and several players in the list have not been that important to the club at all, but were already added in the past. I guess we should only have the real historical figures mentioned in this part of the article and put the others in a list like the one of Arsenal, which will take some time, but which can easily be created as all information is available on the official website.
 * Trivia: I'm going to delete this, the facts are mentioned somewhere in the article already anyways.
 * Crest section: Sounds like a nice idea, but I guess there's not too much to tell about the crests to have them pictured and surrounded by text. What do you suggest this section should look like?


 * Fair use images: I saw these are deleted already. I guess you have a point, but I was assuming this could work as I have seen similar images on Wikipedia already without having trouble with the summary. Most of the times it's indeed just one or two pics in the same article, so that might be the reason why. Probably the most notible example I have for this is the picture on Liverpool F.C. where the players celebrate the Champions League win. This picture on a pretty notable team has been there for months already. I thought the gives fair use summary for the pictures was pretty clear, but if you disagree, please tell me what you think is not bullet-proof in these summaries.
 * Reconsidering subsections: These can indeed be changed a bit, making it one section with several paragraphs instead of 5 sections with 1 paragraph.
 * Opening day and first training: These are very notible and important to the club. Feyenoord's open day and first training are by far the most visited and popular in the country and are classics on itself and widely reported on Dutch television as well. These are definately a must have in the article.
 * Looks like I've had everything mentioned so far :) Cheers, SportsAddicted | discuss  00:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm in the process of going through the article piece by piece, doing copyedits in various places as I do so, as I find it too long to process all at once. Looking over the Other accomodations section, most parts can be removed. Topsportcentrum Rotterdam does not relate to Feyenoord. The bit about restaurant would fit better in the stadium article, it doesn't look sufficiently significant for inclusion in a general overview of the club. All clubs of any size have one or more club shops, the only remarkable thing here is that there are shops in Japan and South Korea, which can be mentioned in the later section about supporters. Likewise, the clothing is unremarkable, for a big club it is fairly common to develop seasonal lines of club branded clothing, and have the players model it. Oldelpaso 21:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds fair to me, go ahead, you're doing a pretty good job out there. SportsAddicted | discuss  00:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, APR t 23:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)